The Codex’s Best Computer RPGs (pre-Diablo)

[Lady Error]

Giving 1 point to each of these.

Wasteland
Champions of Krynn
Wizardry 6: Bane of the Cosmic Forge
Death Knights of Krynn
Ultima 7: The Black Gate
Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
Might and Magic V: Darkside of Xeen
Ultima 7 Part 2: Serpent Isle
Might and Magic: World of Xeen
Swords of Xeen

5. Games. Max.

Deuce Traveler, maybe you should bold that part in the OP since so many do not get it.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Might and Magic V: Darkside of Xeen
Might and Magic: World of Xeen
Swords of Xeen

He's clearly insane anyway, just give 2 points to WoX, Darkside is part of WoX and as for Swords, it's alright but naming it and not Isles of Terra is another proof of insanity.

It's not worse than :"i only played 2 games so i'm giving them each 5 points" though...

Codex polls...

 

[KateMicucci]

5 points: Might and Magic II
4 Points: Ultima VII Black Gate
1 Point: Wasteland

 

[negator2vc]

The only issue I have is the huge chasm between Shattered Lands and Wake of the Ravager, and between Ultima Underworld and Underworld II. It's not like there is a huge drop in quality.

In the case of Dark Sun games the huge chasm is well deserved! The sequel is full of bugs especially bugs that block progress!
I am actually surprised that the game got even the votes it got!
The first Dark Sun game on the other hand is an excellent game and a worthy "sequel" of the Gold Box series!

 

[Thac0]

Didn't play as many retro crpgs as I'd like to yet, but those were the best I played:

Might and Magic III: 3 points
Darklands: 2 points
Realms of Arkania Star Trail: 2 points
Wizardry VI: 2 points
Dark Sun Wake of the Ravager: 1 point

 

[Xorphitus]

Giving 1 point to each of these.

Wasteland
Champions of Krynn
Wizardry 6: Bane of the Cosmic Forge
Death Knights of Krynn
Ultima 7: The Black Gate
Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
Might and Magic V: Darkside of Xeen
Ultima 7 Part 2: Serpent Isle
Might and Magic: World of Xeen
Swords of Xeen

5. Games. Max.

Deuce Traveler, maybe you should bold that part in the OP since so many do not get it.

Wasteland 2
Wizardry 6 2
Wizardry 7 2
Ultima 7:Black Gate 2
Death Knights of Krynn 2


Yes BOLD that shit and also FUCK MATH.

 

[Rincewind]

I don't see the problem with this, though. If you're willing to give 5 points to a single game as opposed to 1 point to 5 games, that says something about the game getting 5 points.

The problem with that is that there is no common agreement between the voters on what constitutes a 5, a 4, a 3, and so on. Maybe some people only played 4-5 games but liked only two, then gave them 5s. Maybe some other people really liked 15, but couldn't really decide which is better, hence picked their 5 favourites and gave them equal ratings of 1. Etc...

In any case, if you look at the top 50 list with ratings removed, it's a good list, and it's 90% the same as the CRPGAddict's GOTY + highest rated lists, so we haven't discovered anything new, really. Ratings are pointless anyway (no pun intended), especially in a popularity based poll. E.g. how does it help anybody to know that it's game X, Y, Z rated as the top 3 if you don't care about their particular subgenres? By definition, because RPG subgenres are so varied, effectively taking the averages of the favourites of a large group of people doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe all the results can reveal is that subgenre X is more popular than subgenre Y, but that's it.

On the other hand, if you take the union of the 5 games that people enjoyed most, that gives you a usable selection of good RPGs people actually liked (assuming you have a few old-timers among the voters and not just people who only played games released after 1992 or something). It also bypasses the drowing out of the valuable votes of the relatively few oldtimers problem completely.

Categories like best Wizardry-like, best DM-like, best Gold Box game, etc. would make actually more sense if you're hellbent on ranking things.

EDIT: Why am I going on about this? Well, if some guy wants to play some good oldschool games and starts dutifully from #1 of the popularity based poll, there's a good chance that he will be sorely disappointed. Ratings are quite misleading that way, and the approach of the CRPG book is infinitely better (no ratings, just find something that you find interesting by reading the descriptions). I for one decided to play Planescape Torment a few years ago because the top 70 list made me believe I am going to play the best RPG of all time... Well, I was extremely disappointed, to say the least, had to abort my playthrough after about 30 hours when the realisation hit me that well, this is the game, it's not gonna get any better. I was also led to believe that combat takes a backseat in the game, then I'm confronted with endless trash mobs in the catacombs, etc... Probably I would have enjoyed it a lot more had I not been primed to expect the best game of all time, so might give it a go again later with reset expectations. On the other hand, many of my absolute favourites are around the middle of the top 70 list (or are not even included). So, for me personally, ratings are a non-indicator, they actually just lead me astray, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Same with books, movies, music, and anything really that people like to "rate".

 

[PorkaMorka]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much different the list would look if you could only give one point to each of the 5 games you listed.

 

[Tacgnol]

Why am I going on about this? Well, if some guy wants to play some good oldschool games and starts dutifully from #1 of the popularity based poll, there's a good chance that he will be sorely disappointed.

That's on the guy reading the list. He should do his own research on the games rather than just blindly assuming it's something he'll enjoy.

Having some sort of list that is going to appeal to every oldfag on the site is impossible. We have storyfags, combatfags, explorefags and people that enjoy anything, everything and all combinations. People who identify as enjoying a specific subcategory of RPG tend to have very strong feelings as to why their particular subgenre is superior.

Generally a game with a lot of votes on this list can probably be assumed to be a good example of the subcategory (or subcategories) it belongs to.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much different the list would look if you could only give one point to each of the 5 games you listed.

Or 2 points to one game and 1 point to up to four others.

Still, I think i prefer the idea of whoever suggested a group prestigious codexers rating all the games they've played enough.
Or just recommending each one of two games with a short description explaining why, and maybe a contradictor for each of these games when there's one.

 

[Rincewind]

Having some sort of list that is going to appeal to every oldfag on the site is impossible. We have storyfags, combatfags, explorefags and people that enjoy anything, everything and all combinations. People who identify as enjoying a specific subcategory of RPG tend to have very strong feelings as to why their particular subgenre is superior.

Generally a game with a lot of votes on this list can probably be assumed to be a good example of the subcategory (or subcategories) it belongs to.

In a roundabout way, you're actually agreeing with me. Even if you feel the need to rank, chucking all subgenres into the same bucket and *then* doing the ranking based on popularity makes very little sense. The most popular subgenre will just win. And I also said, if you're hellbent on ranking things, just do it per subcategory -- you came more of less to the same conclusion.

 

[V_K]

Just out of curiosity, what are the subgenres that you don't see represented in the current top 10, or represented by the wrong games?

 

[Tacgnol]

Just out of curiosity, what are the subgenres that you don't see represented in the current top 10, or represented by the wrong games?

It seems like a pretty diverse list to me personally. It's a good selection of different styles of RPGs.

 

[Incognito/STK]

Ultima VII: The Black Gate (3 Points)

Eye of the Beholder 1 (3 Points)

The Bard's Tale (2 Points)

Heroquest 2: Legacy of Sorasil (1 Point)

Elvira: Mistress of the Dark (1 Point)

 

[Rincewind]

Just out of curiosity, what are the subgenres that you don't see represented in the current top 10, or represented by the wrong games?

Well, there are few quite specific subgenres:

- Dungeon crawlers with real-time combat (aka DM-likes)
- Dungeon crawlers with turn-based combat (aka Wizardry-likes and M&M-likes)
- Dungeon crawlers with tactical turn-based combat (Gold Box, Uukrul, Realms of Arkania, Perihelion, etc)
- Ultima-likes (Questron, Magic Candle, etc.)

Then it gets more blurry after this, but you could still make a distinction between story-based & rpg/adventure hybrids, and more combat based games. Although some of these games are hard to categorise, I admit that.

It's just that when I'm the mood for say a game with tactical combat, then in my opinion it's more useful to be able to go: "there, this is the list of the best dungeon crawlers with tactical combat". And so on.

It's just that it reminds me a bit of those "Top 100 DOS games of all time" type of compilations (to a much lesser extent, admittedly), where #5 is DOOM, followed by Civilization, followed by some flight simulator, followed by Lemmings, etc. All good games for people who like those genres, but ranking them against each other is a bit non-sensical.

For instance, I really like dungeon crawlers where I have to map things, so sure, I could just throw away half of the list, but subgenre specific lists would be better in my opinion. Especially for people who are completly new to these games and have no idea about them at all, but for instance are looking for good story based games. Then you don't want to recommend them Wizardry or EoB... you get my drift.

 

[Rincewind]

It seems like a pretty diverse list to me personally. It's a good selection of different styles of RPGs.

By the way, I agree with that, and I said it. It's just best to ignore the ranking.

 

[V_K]

- Dungeon crawlers with real-time combat (aka DM-likes)

DM is around 11th place. That's probably the most underrepresented subgenre there

- Dungeon crawlers with turn-based combat (aka Wizardry-likes and M&M-likes)

Wizardry 7 on 3rd place, World of Xeen on 9th place.

- Dungeon crawlers with tactical turn-based combat (Gold Box, Uukrul, Realms of Arkania, Perihelion, etc)

Pool of Radiance, 8th; Star Trail, 10th. I'd probably include Betrayal at Krondor in this subcategory as well, which is currently at 1st place.

- Ultima-likes (Questron, Magic Candle, etc.)

Ultima 7, 7th place.

 

[mediocrepoet]

- Dungeon crawlers with real-time combat (aka DM-likes)

DM is around 11th place. That's probably the most underrepresented subgenre there

It's because they're terrible and that entire subgenre is an abomination. Sorry, not sorry.

 

[buffalo bill]

Just out of curiosity, what are the subgenres that you don't see represented in the current top 10, or represented by the wrong games?

Roguelikes

 

[rusty_shackleford]

roguelikes are too difficult to be popular on the codex

 

[Fowyr]

It's because they're terrible and that entire subgenre is an abomination. Sorry, not sorry.

Despite being one of the last subgenres to fall in the middle of 90s, they are not decline enabling (at least not totally) subgenre itself. Proper DM-like has a proper dungeon map, and this kind of maps is too smart for the modern players. Even typical Diablo player can't be assed to play something like EotB.

 

[mediocrepoet]

It's because they're terrible and that entire subgenre is an abomination. Sorry, not sorry.

Despite being one of the last subgenres to fall in the middle of 90s, they are not decline enabling (at least not totally) subgenre itself. Proper DM-like has a proper dungeon map, and this kind of maps is too smart for the modern players. Even typical Diablo player can't be assed to play something like EotB.

I think that's probably fair as what I've played of these games had decent puzzles and such. The main issue for me is that I have hated the combat in every one of them that I've tried.

 

[octavius]

One does not play RTBs for their combat. Having said that, the combat in DM and CSB is not too bad, since they are relatively slow games, with noticeable cool down times (unlike for example Evil's Doom), and with different weapon attacks. You can also play them (DM, at least) without using that lame two step dance.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

The 1-5 point scale with only 10 points was too unbalanced... With results so close and people able to give 5 points to two games, a single voter can significantly change the entire ranking :/

I don't see the problem with this, though. If you're willing to give 5 points to a single game as opposed to 1 point to 5 games, that says something about the game getting 5 points.

Or someone who has only played 1-2 games from this era.

I would have implemented a scaling point system, like I outlined in previous poll threads:

1 game -> 2 points
min. 2 games -> 3 points
min. 3 games -> 5 points, max 3
min. 4 games -> 6 points, max 3
min. 5 games -> 8 points, max 3
min. 10 games -> 15 points, max 3
min. 15 games -> 22 points, max 3

And this is why no one gives you this gig.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Just out of curiosity, what are the subgenres that you don't see represented in the current top 10, or represented by the wrong games?

There's the obvious elephant in the room, who switched Dungeon Master and Ultima Underworld?

The Codex failed to give a GOTY to KotC.
The Codex gave a GOTY to Disco.
And now this.

The decline is real, or maybe, there wasn't any hivemind incline to begin with, some prestigious individuals, for sure, but they're 5% of the Codex at best.

P.S. I assume by your ratings you know exactly in which category you belong...