Editorial Swen Vincke: Larian Studios' "Project E" RPG Inspired by Ultima VII

[SuicideBunny]

It is arguable whether CYOA and QFG are more adventure games than RPGs. Had either of them more sophisticated combat and more challenging encounters, the main guy would be mincemeat (let's not even go into how goblins form a nice, orderly line to fight you when you enter their HQ).

qfg is the most accurate translation of pnp to computer due to the way it implements adventure elements, imo.

 

[Excommunicator]

that's cool and mostly true, but none of those are rpg mechanics, and as i already said, it was a rather excellent sandbox and a good adventure but rpg mechanics are the heart and core of everything remotely rpg. you cannot have a good rpg while neglecting them, and at least for me, the very best rpg evar would have to implement them perfectly, meaning they apply to everyone and everything in the world, which means, amongst other things, that they flow into every subsystem/all forms of interaction, not just combat. both mass effect and ultima fail badly in that regard, but ultima does more so than mass effect since me at least has barebones social skills, while in ultima the mechanics do not affect anything outside of combat. when items are hidden, they are hidden below stacks of other items or behind some wall that makes the item near impossible to notice. there is zero influence of your character build (well, technically there isn't really much of a character build anyways) over that system, or any other.

I am well aware what an RPG needs and how the systems should work. Mass Effect attempts to introduce a character system with talents and classes and such, but they failed themselves when they decided that even with the skills, that the gameplay will entirely revolve around the killing of those robots.

I don't know what your "near-impossible items hidden behind walls" has to do with anything. Did you have trouble playing Ultima 7? Are you telling me we should have those items "auto-found" when we click the relevant skill? Seriously?

Yes Ultima would be a better RPG with skills. Much better. Like I said on the first line, it has a comparatively weak RPG system. It is not weaker as a whole than Mass Effect though. Disagree all you like.

the non-scripted problem solving would be nice for an rpg if your stats had anything to do with it, rather than it all depending on you dragging items around to abuse the engine to make stairs, or abuse the lame ai by placing items it cannot even pick up to block doors that are supposed to close on scheduled times and whatnot.
it's a cool sandbox feature, rpg not so much.

Yes it would be better if stats had anything to do with it. Mass Effect would also be better if those things were possible at all. But they aren't. Where did you get this stuff anyway? Doors in Ultima 7 don't swing, so you can't block them with items. They just appear open and closed. Abusing the engine? You have to build a staircase with boxes to finish the game. Lame AI? As opposed to Mass Effect AI? Block doors at scheduled times? Well you can't "block" doors like you seem to think. You can lock them with a key. Is that game abuse to you?

This is just one long inaccurate rant of "I don't like Ultima NYAH"

me has dialogue skills, point for me.

Correct.

in ultima unlocking consists of finding the key via adventure-like pixelhunts and moving items around

Wait you mean, like WORLD INTERACTION and EXPLORING? As opposed to wandering down a single corridor that has nothing in it? Yeah, can't imagine how an RPG would be stronger by allowing that.

well, me has classes and upon replay bonus skills, plus the classes do affect gameplay and squad choice for hacking/decrypting. so point for me. you get to pick up a bonus skill in me on replay, which like class might affect squad choice, the classes play very differently and affect squad choice due to hacking/decrypting, plus you cannot train all your skills to max. but that's already covered above.

I didn't replay it to find out. The classes don't play very differently. You use a gun of your choice (even in Ultima 7 you can pick your weapon/gun freely) and some powers that are like a gun but shoot blue things instead. Pretty much?

parties aren't important in rpgs anyway, and are just a misguided attempt to make single player computer games seem superficially more like good old pnp with multiple people, which just results in shit like stuff made by bioware in the end.

Another pointless rant. An RPG that gives you the choice of 0-7 companions is logically stronger than one which is the same in every way except for not giving you that choice. It is pretty straight forward.

so that's what? 4 to 2 in favor of me? me might be the (much much much) shittier game, but it is the stronger rpg, simply becasue character stats allow you to pick new responses, unlock shit, and allow/prevent some bonus quests (the max renegade/paragon ones).

The thing is, my original post to you was never meant to be exhaustive. I was just listing some of the things that came to mind, so counting points is dumb. The list for Ultima 7 will go on much, much longer if you try to list it all. I'm not going to bother with that. Your comments earlier did make it sound like you haven't even played the game though.

What exactly do you mean by "levelup/advancement system". In U7 training STR, INT, DEX and Combat is VERY noticeable as you level them up. It really does give you, the player a sense of accomplishment. As well as finding and learning all the spells in the game, which (for the most part) are needed to get past many parts of the game. For example, start a new game of Ultima VII: The Black Gate and run straight to Dungeon Destard and play with the monsters there...

You are right. What I was referring to was the way that there is no real advantage to customising your character in a certain way, and that it is to your advantage to raise all attributes as high as you can. I was comparing it to other RPG systems that force you to choose some things to raise/have high and forfeit the choice with others, creating distinct character types in the process. Given that you can train different attributes in different combinations, and that those training points are limited by the experience you gain (just as spell levels are), I think it is not nearly as weak as many people seem to think it is.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Party. Mass Effect forces you to take 2 companions at all times, while Ultima 7 will allow you to take anywhere from 0 to 7 companions, at your choice.

Inventory. Mass Effect allows you to choose the gun you use and little else. Ultima 7 has a full inventory for all 8 characters.

Trade/Merchants. Mass Effect has credits which allow you to buy...guns? (Anything else? I forget) While there is no shortage of money in Ultima 7, there are many shops and many things to buy; weapons, armour, vehicles, spells, food, and miscellaneous crap, as well as some interesting ways to make money.

Exploration. Mass Effect offers you missions to be approached in a varying order, but forces you into following small linear routes in mostly empty maps. Ultima 7 has a fully open world with traditional RPG things like traps, switches, teleporting etc., i.e. classical RPG dungeon type things.

World Interactivity. Mass Effect has no world interaction of any kind. Everyone knows of the interactivity of the Ultima 7 world. Interactivity that can be used to your advantage to affect the game in many ways (some listed below). I'm not doing a full list.

Non-scripted problem solving. Mass Effect offers only the ability to shoot things in the environment or sometimes talk to them. There is nothing else. While there is no alternative solution scripted at any point in U7 (AFAIK), the open world mechanics enable some creative solutions to be employed (potions, retaliation between NPCs, crate/object stacking, locked doors, collateral damage, serpent venom, NPC spell casting etc.).

that's cool and mostly true, but none of those are rpg mechanics, and as i already said, it was a rather excellent sandbox and a good adventure but rpg mechanics are the heart and core of everything remotely rpg. you cannot have a good rpg while neglecting them, and at least for me, the very best rpg evar would have to implement them perfectly, meaning they apply to everyone and everything in the world, which means, amongst other things, that they flow into every subsystem/all forms of interaction, not just combat. both mass effect and ultima fail badly in that regard, but ultima does more so than mass effect since me at least has barebones social skills, while in ultima the mechanics do not affect anything outside of combat. when items are hidden, they are hidden below stacks of other items or behind some wall that makes the item near impossible to notice. there is zero influence of your character build (well, technically there isn't really much of a character build anyways) over that system, or any other.
the non-scripted problem solving would be nice for an rpg if your stats had anything to do with it, rather than it all depending on you dragging items around to abuse the engine to make stairs, or abuse the lame ai by placing items it cannot even pick up to block doors that are supposed to close on scheduled times and whatnot.
it's a cool sandbox feature, rpg not so much.

World interactivity and non-scripted problem solving are essential in any good P&P session, it doesn't matter if the character's attributes aren't involved. Everything else, while not strictly RPG related, are all there to give more choices to the player (you know, another important aspect of P&P gaming).

 

[Infinitron]

It's obvious what school of RPG thought SuicideBunny subscribes to

 

[SuicideBunny]

it doesn't matter if the character's attributes aren't involved.

but it does matter. they should be involved. that's why you have a character with stats. that's why it's bad form in pnp if a gm either demands supplementary larping for social interactions, giving out bonus mods to rolls for good/bad acting, or worse ignores social stuff entirely replacing it through larping. sure, a system shouldn't stand in way of fun, but if you have a system that you ignore most of the time or have to mod heavily, you should just pick a different one. it's the same with computer games. if all your system does is resolve combat, and combat is a clusterfuck anyway and in no shape or form fun, shouldn't you just do away with it?

Everything else, while not strictly RPG related, are all there to give more choices to the player (you know, another important aspect of P&P gaming).

from my experience the most important aspect of pnp is party interaction and the resulting fuckups but just look at bioware games to see what happens when you try to translate that to computer.
choices are cool in pnp, because you have a gm, but with the computer being a much more limited medium in that aspect, the quantity of choices is secondary to their quality and most importantly the quality of their consequences. ultima offers a lot of low quality choices resulting from its sandbox nature, but i'd be hard pressed to remember any quality choice beyond killing people and thus making your game unfinishable.

 

[Jaesun]

What exactly do you mean by "levelup/advancement system". In U7 training STR, INT, DEX and Combat is VERY noticeable as you level them up. It really does give you, the player a sense of accomplishment. As well as finding and learning all the spells in the game, which (for the most part) are needed to get past many parts of the game. For example, start a new game of Ultima VII: The Black Gate and run straight to Dungeon Destard and play with the monsters there...

You are right. What I was referring to was the way that there is no real advantage to customising your character in a certain way, and that it is to your advantage to raise all attributes as high as you can. I was comparing it to other RPG systems that force you to choose some things to raise/have high and forfeit the choice with others, creating distinct character types in the process. Given that you can train different attributes in different combinations, and that those training points are limited by the experience you gain (just as spell levels are), I think it is not nearly as weak as many people seem to think it is.

Agreed. It is certainly very very basic, but it works. And yes, Ultima VII certainly has NO advantages in personal character builds, as say in Fallout, what it DOES have is reflective in the game and does give you a sense of achievement in continuing to develop/level your character. When I could finally handle and kill the higher level creatures of the game, I had a feeling of accomplishment. In ME there was really none of that.

Also the one thing Larian does do so far in all their games, IS give you the player a choice on how to develop your characters. And that is why I continue to buy and support them. These are the kind of games I enjoy. They are in a position to actually make the kind of games they enjoy playing. As opposed to all the other developers who have to deal with AAA Publishers and their retarded Marketing Department and make shit accessible action games.

A mix of Ultima VII (taking the best parts, and what worked) + Larian and how they like to make game == WIN. And will probably be a very fun and enjoyable cRPG.

 

[Excommunicator]

choices are cool in pnp, because you have a gm, but with the computer being a much more limited medium in that aspect, the quantity of choices is secondary to their quality and most importantly the quality of their consequences. ultima offers a lot of low quality choices resulting from its sandbox nature, but i'd be hard pressed to remember any quality choice beyond killing people and thus making your game unfinishable.

The limitations of the computer medium is why I would always advocate a basis of sandbox-type mechanics that can then be freely used by the player in a range of situations for a range of results. Ideally, yes, through a complex network of skills that link player choices to the strengths and weaknesses of the player character.

I also would not try to separate "quantity of choice" from "quality of choice". A genuine choice requires that your input be followed by output appropriate to the input, but it is a diminished choice if the output is the same as the output of other inputs. Bioware games are infamous for this. Bioware developers are devious and manipulative because they know most players will simply not be able to identify the fact that their chosen inputs are not actually leading to different outputs. Still, I think that Bioware don't really understand what RPGs are anyway (as opposed to knowing, and just not caring)

 

[SerratedBiz]

It is arguable whether CYOA and QFG are more adventure games than RPGs. Had either of them more sophisticated combat and more challenging encounters, the main guy would be mincemeat (let's not even go into how goblins form a nice, orderly line to fight you when you enter their HQ).

qfg is the most accurate translation of pnp to computer due to the way it implements adventure elements, imo.

I guess it comes down to the what is the nature of an RPG question. To me, the RPG elements in QFG are limited to its use of character stats to define what the Hero can and cannot do and how well he succeeds when he does.

It is true that PnP has a strong component of adventure to it, but that aspect to me is exactly that: of the adventure genre. Surely there's room to say that PnP is composed of different ratios of adventure and RPG (again, read stat-based) depending on your liking, but it's still how I would logically separate those two components.

 

[SuicideBunny]

It is true that PnP has a strong component of adventure to it, but that aspect to me is exactly that: of the adventure genre. Surely there's room to say that PnP is composed of different ratios of adventure and RPG (again, read stat-based) depending on your liking, but it's still how I would logically separate those two components.

it's somewhat funny, though, considering that both genres were started by games that tried to bring the pnp feeling to the computer.

 

[Infinitron]

it's somewhat funny, though, considering that both genres were started by games that tried to bring the pnp feeling to the computer.

Both? Hmm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Crowther

"I had been involved in a non-computer role-playing game called Dungeons and Dragons at the time, and also I had been actively exploring in caves - Mammoth Cave in Kentucky in particular. Suddenly, I got involved in a divorce, and that left me a bit pulled apart in various ways. In particular I was missing my kids. Also the caving had stopped, because that had become awkward, so I decided I would fool around and write a program that was a re-creation in fantasy of my caving, and also would be a game for the kids, and perhaps some aspects of the Dungeons and Dragons that I had been playing. My idea was that it would be a computer game that would not be intimidating to non-computer people, and that was one of the reasons why I made it so that the player directs the game with natural language input, instead of more standardized commands. My kids thought it was a lot of fun."

Interesting.

 

[Johannes]

Neither game has much to offer for combat. Twitch shooting for mass effect and auto-resolve for Ultima 7. No opportunity for tactics, different approaches, or thought-out strategies. This is the reason why turn based mechanics are preferred by so many on the Codex in an RPG.

It might be the reason, many codexians aren't very smart - but in reality tactics, different approaches, and though-out strategies are in no way exclusive to turn based games. The innate pros of turn-based are something else entirely.