Plane Escapee
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Thanks for bumping this thread, it was a really good read apart from the HoMM6 derail. I wish there were more threads and discussions like this on 2016 Codex.
So Majesty is a rpg then?
I had been involved in a non-computer role-playing game called Dungeons and Dragons at the time, and also I had been actively exploring in caves - Mammoth Cave in Kentucky in particular. Suddenly, I got involved in a divorce, and that left me a bit pulled apart in various ways. In particular I was missing my kids. Also the caving had stopped, because that had become awkward, so I decided I would fool around and write a program that was a re-creation in fantasy of my caving, and also would be a game for the kids, and perhaps some aspects of the Dungeons and Dragons that I had been playing. My idea was that it would be a computer game that would not be intimidating to non-computer people, and that was one of the reasons why I made it so that the player directs the game with natural language input, instead of more standardized commands. My kids thought it was a lot of fun.
The cause of this is easy to pinpoint. First of all, pretty much all RPGs are asymmetric - the player (or his team) is pitched against overwhelming forces. This means computer opponent can have advantage by design, which hides some of its programming flaws. Most strategy games, however, are symmetrical - all players, human or AI, start from the same point and are given the same set of rules. Obviously human players have an enormous advantage then.To me one of the main dividing lines between CRPGs and Strategy games (some of which have better tactical combat and character building than the majority of CRPGs) that CRPGs in general are not crippled by bad poor AI, but almost every Strategy game is.
The cause of this is easy to pinpoint. First of all, pretty much all RPGs are asymmetric - the player (or his team) is pitched against overwhelming forces. This means computer opponent can have advantage by design, which hides some of its programming flaws. Most strategy games, however, are symmetrical - all players, human or AI, start from the same point and are given the same set of rules. Obviously human players have an enormous advantage then.To me one of the main dividing lines between CRPGs and Strategy games (some of which have better tactical combat and character building than the majority of CRPGs) that CRPGs in general are not crippled by bad poor AI, but almost every Strategy game is.
Second thing is that AI can provide a challenge and be noteworthy on a tactical level, where all it controls is a couple of goblins with an ability or two and the rules are rudimentary. When it comes to a bigger scale - composing and moving armies, the whole economical layer and so on - especially if there are also tactical battles using another set of rules - it fails and it is easy for everybody to see.
Will Crowther on Colossal Cave Adventure:
I had been involved in a non-computer role-playing game called Dungeons and Dragons at the time, and also I had been actively exploring in caves - Mammoth Cave in Kentucky in particular. Suddenly, I got involved in a divorce, and that left me a bit pulled apart in various ways. In particular I was missing my kids. Also the caving had stopped, because that had become awkward, so I decided I would fool around and write a program that was a re-creation in fantasy of my caving, and also would be a game for the kids, and perhaps some aspects of the Dungeons and Dragons that I had been playing. My idea was that it would be a computer game that would not be intimidating to non-computer people, and that was one of the reasons why I made it so that the player directs the game with natural language input, instead of more standardized commands. My kids thought it was a lot of fun.
Early adventure games (e.g. Zork) didn't possess much, if anything, of a story, but simply provided a combination of exploration and puzzle-solving. Thus, even if "traditional RPGs" had developed from adventure games rather than vice versa, this could not have been the source of story-telling in RPGs. Non-emphasis on story in early adventure games reflected the non-emphasis on story of RPGs.
Person who joined the Codex yesterday dedicates his first post to raging at somebody who hasn't logged in since 2011
Person who joined the Codex yesterday dedicates his first post to raging at somebody who hasn't logged in since 2011
What about party based RPGs? Do they always have an MC who can't die?
There's a recent game that did just that, Dragon Age: Inquisition. You should check it out.Strategy games are frequently better simulations than roleplaying games, but they're not better roleplaying games. RPGs should occur through an individual's perspective. Strategy games occur at the macro level, effectively simulating an entire nation collective.
A strategy game could theoretically become a roleplaying game IF:
You were given direct control of the ruler of that nation
You no longer had omniscient perspective but one that showed only what the ruler could see and/or hear
Your control of other units occurred indirectly through that ruler's influence rather than through the god-hand
Rogue, Wizardry, and Dungeon Master are "traditional CRPGs", if anything can be considered a "traditional CRPG"; and if they aren't "traditional CRPGs", the term is meaningless and should never have been used. Dungeon-crawling constitutes a combination of exploration and combat using a small number of differentiated characters, the essence of RPGs since the creation of the genre with the publication of original three-booklet D&D in 1974.When it comes to video games, adventure games emphasized storytelling before CRPGs did. The oldest CRPGs you find are all dungeon crawlers with minimal story, while many early adventure games started with a mystery plot and then developed it through the course of the game. They also introduced the keyword dialog system and, therefore, the first interactive dialog in games.
But you could indeed argue that PnP RPGs were the source of inspiration for adventure games, as adventure games don't actually have an obvious PnP precedent aside from PnP RPGs. Even so, traditional CRPGs emerged later than both early dungeon crawlers and early adventure games. The first CRPGs were not "traditional RPGs" as we'd think of them. But they were also not action RPGs in the sense of Diablo. They were, in fact, the closest CRPGs have ever been to their war gaming beginnings: strictly turn-based, rule-based combat simulators.
Rogue, Wizardry, and Dungeon Master are "traditional CRPGs", if anything can be considered a "traditional CRPG"; and if they aren't "traditional CRPGs", the term is meaningless and should never have been used. Dungeon-crawling constitutes a combination of exploration and combat using a small number of differentiated characters, the essence of RPGs since the creation of the genre with the publication of original three-booklet D&D in 1974.When it comes to video games, adventure games emphasized storytelling before CRPGs did. The oldest CRPGs you find are all dungeon crawlers with minimal story, while many early adventure games started with a mystery plot and then developed it through the course of the game. They also introduced the keyword dialog system and, therefore, the first interactive dialog in games.
But you could indeed argue that PnP RPGs were the source of inspiration for adventure games, as adventure games don't actually have an obvious PnP precedent aside from PnP RPGs. Even so, traditional CRPGs emerged later than both early dungeon crawlers and early adventure games. The first CRPGs were not "traditional RPGs" as we'd think of them. But they were also not action RPGs in the sense of Diablo. They were, in fact, the closest CRPGs have ever been to their war gaming beginnings: strictly turn-based, rule-based combat simulators.
As for the introduction of a focus on story into CRPGs, although this tended to come later for the RPG genre than for the adventure game genre, it was part of a general transformation of video games towards a more cinematic nature with an emphasis on story. This is something that affected most video game genres; even first-person shooters found themselves with drastically simplified level design and numerous lengthy cutscenes for the player to watch without interaction. Early text-based adventure games were dominated by exploration and puzzle-solving, with the attempts in the mid-80s at making more story-focused interactive fiction selling relatively poorly and the entire text-based subgenre then collapsing in favor of graphical adventure games. In pen-and-paper RPGs, the trend towards story over gameplay began in the mid-80s, and had far more of an effect on CRPGs than developments in the clearly-differentiated adventure game genre.
Person who joined the Codex yesterday dedicates his first post to raging at somebody who hasn't logged in since 2011
And with that account name, too! I'm looking forward to plenty of "edgy" posts about how BG2 and Fallout 2 suck. Because, you know, those are opinions no one's ever dared to air on the codex before.
Person who joined the Codex yesterday dedicates his first post to raging at somebody who hasn't logged in since 2011
I think there's an amazing opportunity for the total war combat system combined with more traditional rpg elements. Has anyone here played the mark of chaos game? It was kind of amazing, though very limited, in it's story campaign before they took your glorious empire army away and gave you some gay elves instead. I've had little fun in real time with pause systems but this is a good combat system and makes me feel like a real commander.