Game News Steve Moret speaks up on 2nd ToEE patch

[Volourn]

No, it didn't Spaz.

VD, I'm not going intod etail onw hat he meant. I'll just Sammael speak for himself. I'll deal with this non existent CR28 creature. At least it wa snon existent when I played the game and that includes the hezrou.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No, it didn't Spaz.

I just checked one of my saves, after the patch, it says CR 28. So, whatcha talking about?

VD, I'm not going intod etail onw hat he meant. I'll just Sammael speak for himself.

Why did you start guessing what he meant in the first place then?

 

[Volourn]

Because it was fun.

VD, Spaz said PRE patch not POST past.

I never used the patch so I don't know first hand what it effects. Howevr, i can state unequivicoally that there wasn't a CR28 Hezro in my TOEE.

 

[Spazmo]

Howevr, i can state unequivicoally that there was CR28 Hezro in my TOEE.

So we agree--pre patch, the Hezrou is CR 28 or at least is listed as such.

 

[taks]

You're a prick, at least give credit where credit is due, no game other D&D game comes remotely close to recreating the combat rules as does ToEE.

oh that was eloquent. haven't worked on your debate skills much lately, have you? you can turn any argument you make into fodder for the other side. grow up. as bad as they screwed up all the rules (i'll admit mostly because they were never tested) saying this game is the most faithful is rather... well, disengenous. go look that word up at dictionary.com if you're having problems with it.

From your posts here and the ones I've seen Atari board and you sound like you've spent a hell of alot more time criticizing the game than playing it.

played it plenty. then i stopped. it sucks, that's why i stopped. that's why i'm so critical. get used to it.

taks

 

[taks]

Examples, PLZ SIR

you're joking, right? there's several hundred documented bugs listed over at the ataricommunity website as well as all remaining bugs collated at C08 and you want examples? most of these are in fact, rules screwups, and i dutifully admit, most of those screwups are due to a lack of polish and testing with the game. they just never finished.

there are several, however, like bugbears and gnolls with DR that were were added as design decisions simply because they didn't have any good AI script writers (if the game ain't tough enough, make the critters tougher!) or the CR3 werewolf (or was it a wolfwere?). then there's the "3.5 version of identify" that tim just "decided" to leave out. oddly, that very point was SPECIFICALLY brought up in interviews released last january. the only thing identify indentified (before CO8) was the name, and, oddly enough, that's the only thing it's NOT supposed to reveal. paladin bonuses (boni?) based on CON rather than CHA (correct that if i'm wrong, i'm running off the top of my head here). i can take sling as a weapon focus (presumably weapon specialization as well) yet there are no bullets!!! 30 to start with, better make em last...

nuff examples?

taks

 

[Sheriff05]

Chirp, Chirp, Chirp

I just love the superiority complexes of shitbirds like you.
We are all aware you think ToEE *sucks* so if you're going to continue to criticize it every chance you get, please elborate with fucking specifics.
We have all played the game and many of us have a different opinions.
So if you want a debate, Mr. Debater, please bring it the fuck on.
All I see out of you is your shitty little opinion, which is not really worth debating at all,
it just makes you look like an asshole.
Myself and many others here can certainly debate the merits and flaws of ToEE on a point by point basis, and we all have plenty of good and bad things to say about the game. I am assuming you meant *disingenuous* above, which it *is* for you to deny that ToEE is as faithful a computer translation of the ruleset that's been done yet.

played it plenty. then i stopped. it sucks, that's why i stopped. that's why i'm so critical. get used to it.

Just back up your bullshit, you fucking poseur.

 

[Sheriff05]

Examples, PLZ SIR

you're joking, right? nuff examples?

taks

We are all aware of all of what *was* and what *was not* done for play balance regardless of programing errors, "lack of"or bad QA and lots and lots of bugs That doesn't in any fucking way, shape or form change the fact TROIKA got the god damn combat mechanic right, finally for once.
You're not on the Atari board, we know all the common complaints so if you cannot come upwith something new we'll just assume you don't have any examples and you are singing the same old song we have all heard before.
do you have a point?, you don't like it, yeah,so fucking what?

 

[Volourn]

I see Sherrif is crying again. boo hoo. the only unable to debate here is you. Uou show that over, and over again.

Spaz, heh, be nice and don't take advantage of my typos. It was edited to clarify. heh.

 

[taks]

You're not on the Atari board, we know all the common complaints so if you cannot come upwith something new we'll just assume you don't have any examples and you are singing the same old song we have all heard before.
do you have a point?, you don't like it, yeah,so fucking what?

and i listed a half dozen examples, please re-read. llamagod did not ask for new examples, he asked for examples. i provided. the common ones are the ones off the top of my head, regurgitating a list 200-300 plus long is hardly practical in the real world where i live. how bout you?. they did teach you to read, right?

so, am i to believe that the only opinions allowed around here are those that paint a warm fuzzy for troika? they make the 3rd worst (my opinion, of course) crpg in the history of crpgs and i'm not allowed to run my mouth like you are?

taks

 

[taks]

I see Sherrif is crying again. boo hoo. the only unable to debate here is you. Uou show that over, and over again.

only his exalted opinion counts. i suppose only here is he really capable of voicing such an opinion. real life has likely precluded that from him.

taks

 

[Sheriff05]

You're not on the Atari board, we know all the common complaints so if you cannot come upwith something new we'll just assume you don't have any examples and you are singing the same old song we have all heard before.
do you have a point?, you don't like it, yeah,so fucking what?

and i listed a half dozen examples, please re-read. llamagod did not ask for new examples, he asked for examples. i provided. the common ones are the ones off the top of my head, regurgitating a list 200-300 plus long is hardly practical in the real world where i live. how bout you?. they did teach you to read, right?

so, am i to believe that the only opinions allowed around here are those that paint a warm fuzzy for troika? they make the 3rd worst (my opinion, of course) crpg in the history of crpgs and i'm not allowed to run my mouth like you are?

taks

Plenty of people here aptly criticize ToEE on it's merits or lack of them, without issue
and with decent debate. I don't care if you or anyone else likes Troika or not. I have said numerous times I can totally see why some people don't like ToEE. However, If you going to try to characterize the game as nothing more than a coaster, then be specific and don't use the same old crap we have all discussed before. I specifically said you're a prick for not giving them credit for the combat mechanics and ruleset translation, You think it's been done better? fine, lets hear what you got to say and let's not hear the same old line you spew unanswered on the Atari board.
If you want a civil debate, act like you really want one and I will comply. It's *disingenuous* of you to act suprised by the responses you get here.. You know damn well plenty of people here like ToEE, you wanted an argument and you got one.

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

The biggest problem I've had in toee so far is the CR3 werewolves in the damn air temple(post patch). Those things had over 100 hp's each, and according to my battle chart ego thingy or whatever, have 12 HD, what the hell are they CR 3 for? Luckily for me, I have a greatsword wielding fighter with gauntlents of giant strength or whatever, who was pretty much the only one who could break through their damage reduction(oops, no silver*sighs*). But that was freaking dissapointing CR 3 12 HD werewolves my ass!

 

[Major_Blackhart]

They weren't that bad. Chin up.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Jesus christ, guys. You're making it sound as if Tim and crew purposely added the bugs to piss you off. They didn't. The rules are pretty complex, first of all, and switching from 3.0 to 3.5 in such a short period of time screwed up a lot of things. The game should have definitely had an extra month or two in QA but it was released in the state that it was through the fault of Atari for not listening enough and Troika for not making enough noise.

In any case the NPCs dont cheat. What ever little bonuses they have, like damage reduction, are bugs - and yes, they are being fixed. Give it a rest.

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

No i suppoes they weren't too bad, just somewhat dissapointing to find I'd received something like 80 xp per person for my 7-8th level party, after taking so long and using up all my healing items and such.

 

[Michael_Wolf]

The biggest problem I've had in toee so far is the CR3 werewolves in the damn air temple(post patch). Those things had over 100 hp's each, and according to my battle chart ego thingy or whatever, have 12 HD, what the hell are they CR 3 for? Luckily for me, I have a greatsword wielding fighter with gauntlents of giant strength or whatever, who was pretty much the only one who could break through their damage reduction(oops, no silver*sighs*). But that was freaking dissapointing CR 3 12 HD werewolves my ass!

The problem is that ToEE was originally an AD&D 1st Edition module. When Troika started transferring the module to 3rd Edition they tried to recreate monsters, NPCs, etc. as close as possible to their 1st Edition counterparts. That means, that some of the statistics are way off when compared to the 3rd Edition Monsters Manual. When they decided to use 3.5 Edition rules, they had to change the statistics again. So some of the encounters are probably somewhat strange (particularly the werewolves encounter) but nevertheless the game is fun and worth playing as long as you don't expect that you can use your MM as a guide to the monsters encountered in ToEE.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

saying this game is the most faithful is rather... well, disengenous. go look that word up at dictionary.com if you're having problems with it.

I've looked "disengenous" up and I'm still having problems. Help?

No entry found for disengenous.

Did you mean disingenuous?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Taks was being pretty disingenuous about his handle over the English language when he brought up the very subject.

 

[taks]

If you want a civil debate, act like you really want one and I will comply. It's *disingenuous* of you to act suprised by the responses you get here.. You know damn well plenty of people here like ToEE, you wanted an argument and you got one.

a.) i never asked for a debate. someone was blowing smoke up troika's ass and i responded with a bit 'o sarcasm. how different is that than constantly posting how "grand" good ole toee is? like it or not, my opinion on the matter is just as valid. oddly, my method of delivering said opinion certainly ranks a bit above yours as it generally doesn't criticize the poster nor curse him because i don't like it. i disagree, that's it.

b.) as i stated, i made a valid point that toee has rules violations and llamagod asked for examples. the fact that he asked, indicated he wanted me to back up my position. i did by responding with the post that certainly provied my point. what more is needed in a civil debate?

oh, and btw, you accuse ME of not wanting a civil debate but you start your argument by "you're a prick"? you need to lay off the crack buddy... that hypocrisy kind of shoots down your argument altogether. are you even out of high school yet? i hope you don't behave this poorly in person...

taks

 

[taks]

Taks was being pretty disingenuous about his handle over the English language when he brought up the very subject.

mispelling. has nothing to do with my "handle" of the english language. disingenuous.

if we want to get into a pissing contest on intelligence we can do that...

taks

 

[taks]

a cookie to the einstein that can catch that last one...
taks

 

[Sheriff05]

Let's clear up a few things

i never asked for a debate. someone was blowing smoke up troika's ass and i responded with a bit 'o sarcasm. how different is that than constantly posting how "grand" good ole toee is? like it or not, my opinion on the matter is just as valid. oddly, my method of delivering said opinion certainly ranks a bit above yours as it generally doesn't criticize the poster nor curse him because i don't like it. i disagree, that's it.

The person you accuse of "blowing smoke" is Mike Wolf who runs the Greyhawk and Trioka Chronicle web sites, He is an admitted *fan* of the game and in as much as I've seen has NEVER flamed anyone in defense of it. He is also comes off an all around nice guy who goes out of his way to help people who have questions or problems with the game.Your ingnorance of who he was, and your obnoxious poke at him generated my response. Be happy "prick" is kind for you.

b.) as i stated, i made a valid point that toee has rules violations and llamagod asked for examples. the fact that he asked, indicated he wanted me to back up my position. i did by responding with the post that certainly provied my point. what more is needed in a civil debate?

Valid point?, sorry your *opinion* is a valid point only to those who fucking agree with you. Personally I've read alot of your *bullshit* about ToEE on the Atari board you make blanket statements about Troika incapability to translate the 3.5 rules properly and don't seem to except the fact that they DID , (as much as any one has) That is a fact, not a matter of debate. Your *choice* to view things that were done as play balancing issues (the DR, which was discussed in length by developers PRE FUCKING RELEASE) as *rules violations* and your *choice* to view bugs as inept rules implementation, is clearly your perogative. That certainly doesn't validate your claims and simply makes you another asshole with an opinion.

oh, and btw, you accuse ME of not wanting a civil debate but you start your argument by "you're a prick"? you need to lay off the crack buddy... that hypocrisy kind of shoots
down your argument altogether. are you even out of high school yet? i hope you don't behave this poorly in person...

Are you going to deny you not trying to provoke responses by posts similar to yours to Mike Wolf above?, You're obviously not brain dead so I know you are aware there a plenty of people that like ToEE and support Troika that hang out here. Like I said you before you came here looking for an argument and you got one, end of story.

You need to brush up on your reading comprehension smart guy, as not only is it ironic that you misspelled *disingenuous* while using it in an effort to criticize my mental capacity. (Provoking the other responses you got).
You also confuse *hypocrisy* with your failure to realize that *I don't like you* and I will gladly crawl up your ass and die when you talk stupid shit I don't appreciate. Welcome to the real *virtual* world, you should have figured that out by now.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I find it very ironic how those who would defend Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate with Rule 0 can simply negate the very argument that they utilize in those discussions when the subject of Temple of Elemental Evil comes into focus.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

^Persactly.