Starfield - Epic Shit Takes from Bethestards

[Robotigan]

Quest design is more important than storytelling.

Eh. If that were always the case, visual novels wouldn't be a thing.

Well, well, well. So you finally admit it, eh? But to be serious for a moment, these are roleplaying games so constructing good gameplay scenarios should be a priority. Visual novels are more of an evolution of comic books.

Personally, I find games like Skyrim are ruined for me due to their awful writing rather than their boring quest design.

Morrowind's quests were mostly fetch quests and other boring things, but the writing was fairly high-quality compared to Oblivion and everything that followed it.

Morrowind doesn't have writing, Morrowind has non-writing. It has a big book of lore, but how the characters and stories work is purely functional. Now as a strategy gamer, I'm fine with that. But just letting you guys know because when a company like Bethesda hears "you need better writing" they're gonna be thinking TLoU or Disco Elysium not Morrowind. Now all that being said, yes I appreciate Morrowind's lore immensely and it led to some of the most intriguing civilizations in any RPG. It's really cool that there are 4 distinct architectural styles associated with each society.

Now THAT being said, some grognards discredit Skyrim because most of what it does better is the unspoken stuff. Like besides the towns and cities, Skyrim's overworld is way better than Morrowind. It's not even close. Morrowinds fauna just aimlessly meanders around waiting to attack the player like an MMO. In Skyrim bears and sabertooth cats lurk in caves and dens. Giants lead mammoth herds. Wolves hunt in packs. Mudcrabs hide in marshlands. Birds fly overhead and butterflies flit around. There's at least 8 distinct biomes that seamlessly blend into each other. Morrowind has maybe 3 and the most prominent one is basically just empty terrain map that you spend your entire playthrough trying to avoid. The reason that dragons are such a big deal for Skyrim when they're in half of all fantasy games (and much more challenging encounters) is because Skyrim's ecology is more convincing and dragons have been integrated into that in just about the highest effort way possible. Now in terms of lore, yes they're integrated in just about the laziest way possible. But again, I would argue that making cool dragons is more important than making cool dragon lore. We're not exactly starving for the latter.

Oh, and one more thing. Skyrim did Dwemer ruins better. In Morrowind much of their design--aside from big daddy Akulakhan himself--is generic steampunk. There's a semblence of their Babylonian inspiration in Morrowind, but Skyrim did 90% of the work manifesting it. Also depicting Dwemer as floating ghosts when their disappearance is such a major part of the lore was stupid. Skyrim's idea to invent a Falmer slave race that inhabits the ruins instead was such an improvement.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Well, well, well. So you finally admit it, eh?

Admit what? That plot-on-rails VNs exist?

these are roleplaying games so constructing good gameplay scenarios should be a priority. Visual novels are more of an evolution of comic books.

Yes and no. You can't make choices in comics. Some VNs have fairly extensive branching possibilities and even something like new game+ functionality. And a lot of VNs have other mechanics - resource management, stats, combat, quests - but people still buy games without those.

My point was: a game without quest design is still appealing.

Morrowind doesn't have writing, Morrowind has non-writing. It has a big book of lore, but how the characters and stories work is purely functional.

Someone wrote said lore though. Ergo writing. Semantics.

Now THAT being said, some grognards discredit Skyrim because most of what it does better is the unspoken stuff.

I don't like Skyrim because of the dumb writing. You can have the best simulation in the world, but if most of the questlines are appallingly stupid, it still won't be enjoyable.

This is why Skyrim et al get called walking sims. Because that's the important part to fans. "Look! A deer! In the woods! It's like I'm actually leaving my mother's basement!"

Oh, and one more thing. Skyrim did Dwemer ruins better. In Morrowind much of their design--aside from big daddy Akulakhan himself--is generic steampunk.

Not really the subject of a conversation about writing though.

Skyrim's idea to invent a Falmer slave race that inhabits the ruins instead was such an improvement.

True. Doesn't make up for the rest of the writing though.

 

[Robotigan]

Yes and no. You can't make choices in comics. Some VNs have fairly extensive branching possibilities and even something like new game+ functionality. And a lot of VNs have other mechanics - resource management, stats, combat, quests - but people still buy games without those.

Plenty of CYOA experiments have been tried, they just didn't take off until programmable interfaces automated away the egregious amount of "turn to page 129 and look up item B17 in the appendix". In terms of program architecture, they're basically single-client web servers. A series of static pages that direct to each other via a route tree and use session cookies to manage state. Every website is effectively a visual novel.

Someone wrote said lore though. Ergo writing. Semantics.

No one considers tool tips to be writing. Writing is generally associated with story construction.

I don't like Skyrim because of the dumb writing. You can have the best simulation in the world, but if most of the questlines are appallingly stupid, it still won't be enjoyable.

This is why Skyrim et al get called walking sims. Because that's the important part to fans. "Look! A deer! In the woods! It's like I'm actually leaving my mother's basement!"

The simulation is the entire point of making a game. This is the most "just read a book" complaint I've ever seen. Actually it's not even like that since you don't seem particularly interested in narrative design either. It's more like "just read an encylopedia." The programmers are the most expensive people on staff. If you really don't care about that stuff, you can hire a single web dev and task them with displaying your branching content at the appropriate time.

Not really the subject of a conversation about writing though.

It's the same thing. You want the lore to be convincing. I agree. I'm just also throwing the art and world design in there as well since it takes the place of what would be written descriptions in a novel or lower-budget production. You can imagine a novelist writing:

"The Dragonborn trudged through the frigid marshes of Hjaalmarch, the bitter cold and swamp stench seaping into his clothes with every step. His journey slowed by the heavy weight of his provisions. Unfortunately, packing light wasn't an option, everything that grew in these accursed marshlands was poison. 'Eeeee', a mudcrab hissed as he approach though he payed it little mind. All his focus was concentrated on the scanning the murky waters below for slaughterfish--large ambush predators with long narrow snouts lined with razor sharp teeth, shallow stagnant pools such as these were their favorite hunting grounds. On a brighter day, the flash of the sunlight reflected off silver scales would be difficult to miss, but today the skies had betrayed him. It was nearly impossible to make anything out beneath the clouds and mud."

In a high-budget video game, all of this is just depicted by the artists and level designers instead. The fact that anyone who played the game can relate to that paragraph implies they did a really good job.

 

[Robotigan]

Come to think of it. Roadwarden is a text-based RPG full of written descriptions like that and relatively light on exact events. I don't think it's truly about "the writing" as Morrowboomers claim. It's about the lore wiki. They're not interested in that intimate, experiential stuff. They want drama. Factional politicking, major paradigms shifts, and the like. Stuff that a royal scribe would consider worth documenting in their biographies. More Cicero less Henry David Thoreau.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Come to think of it. Roadwarden is a text-based RPG full of written descriptions like that and relatively light on exact events. I don't think it's truly about "the writing" as Morrowboomers claim. It's about the lore wiki. They're not interested in that intimate, experiential stuff. They want drama. Factional politicking, major paradigms shifts, and the like. Stuff that a royal scribe would consider worth documenting in their biographies. More Cicero less Henry David Thoreau.

I haven't played Starfield and Roadwarden, would you care to elaborate on the comparison, especially related to "relatively light on exact events"? Thanks.

 

[Robotigan]

Come to think of it. Roadwarden is a text-based RPG full of written descriptions like that and relatively light on exact events. I don't think it's truly about "the writing" as Morrowboomers claim. It's about the lore wiki. They're not interested in that intimate, experiential stuff. They want drama. Factional politicking, major paradigms shifts, and the like. Stuff that a royal scribe would consider worth documenting in their biographies. More Cicero less Henry David Thoreau.

I haven't played Starfield and Roadwarden, would you care to elaborate on the comparison, especially related to "relatively light on exact events"? Thanks.

It's the same as any Bethesda game. Outside of the main story beats, not much happens. I mean a lot happens in Starfield but not for the scale of the game. It's mostly about wandering around and drinking in the setting or in Roadwarden's case descriptions thereof. There's more focus on what the player experiences than major plot events in the narrative. I'm just drawing a parallel between something that is entirely writing in one game can be expressed without any writing in a larger budget production.

 

[Alex]

These people have never seen a gun, have they.

This is RIFTS-tier shit.
(...)

Come on, dude, that is really offensive. Rifts is absurd, of course, but it makes up for it by being cool instead. That weapon looks like glorified stove lighter instead.

 

[Immortal]

Emil: "Wow it's great to see everyone love my game!!"
Literally Everyone: "This game is shit"

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

I'm not even joking anymore. I had to beg infinitron last time to remove this stupid tag and now some dipshit gave it to me again because I like a game? go and fuck yourself asshole

dude, i've been an ass for 15 years now, and still haven't managed to earn a tag. maybe, just maybe, the answer you seek is inside of you. but it's the wrong one.

 

[Robotigan]

After completing the questline in full, I feel even more strongly that Crimson Fleet is the best questline in the game. It's not even particularly close. It has the most intriguing plot hook. Makes better use of the setting and art assets. Leverages the game mechanics way more thoroughly, basically every decent use of space ships in the game (aside from the simulator) is in this questline. It has better stealth missions than the stealth faction. It has the most consequential decisions of any questline. And to top it all off, it has the best ending sequence of all the factions like 3x over. If the rest of the game were at this level of quality, it would have been received much better.

 

[Justicar]

Dead gayme.

 

[Rhobar121]

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-...xbox-and-inworld-ai-partnership-announcement/
Eventually the writing in Bethesda games will improve.
Emil must be looking for a new job.

 

[Yosharian]

After completing the questline in full, I feel even more strongly that Crimson Fleet is the best questline in the game. It's not even particularly close. It has the most intriguing plot hook. Makes better use of the setting and art assets. Leverages the game mechanics way more thoroughly, basically every decent use of space ships in the game (aside from the simulator) is in this questline. It has better stealth missions than the stealth faction. It has the most consequential decisions of any questline. And to top it all off, it has the best ending sequence of all the factions like 3x over. If the rest of the game were at this level of quality, it would have been received much better.

Yeah but doesn't it make half the world's enemies peaceful to you?

You go exploring and find a dangerous facility and nobody is hostile because they're Crimson Fleet?

 

[ArchAngel]

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-...xbox-and-inworld-ai-partnership-announcement/
Eventually the writing in Bethesda games will improve.
Emil must be looking for a new job.

And we continue our ongoing commitment to bring intentional, inclusive practices and thinking to everything we do at Xbox.

Not likely. Automatic censorship included in the package free of charge.

 

[ArchAngel]

After completing the questline in full, I feel even more strongly that Crimson Fleet is the best questline in the game. It's not even particularly close. It has the most intriguing plot hook. Makes better use of the setting and art assets. Leverages the game mechanics way more thoroughly, basically every decent use of space ships in the game (aside from the simulator) is in this questline. It has better stealth missions than the stealth faction. It has the most consequential decisions of any questline. And to top it all off, it has the best ending sequence of all the factions like 3x over. If the rest of the game were at this level of quality, it would have been received much better.

Yeah but doesn't it make half the world's enemies peaceful to you?

You go exploring and find a dangerous facility and nobody is hostile because they're Crimson Fleet?

Nah, most enemies are Spacers and Eliptic anyways.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I was watching this overly long review when I fell asleep only to wake up near the end of them talking about the npc characters looks and talking being… well Bethesda sameness which was a huge let down compared to BG3. Is BG3 character animations and emotions really the new level to raise to and base modern games from here on out?

 

[Lord_Potato]

Just started playing Starfield almost straight after completing Cyberpunk 2077 and let me tell you, it's hard.

Technically, the game is inferior in so many ways. Tiny environments devoid of atmosphere, constant loading screens, dead-eyed characters, static conversations... the story also seems much less engaging.

Shooting is okay, but enemy AI is so brain-dead. I move behind a dude and put a whole clip in his back before he understands I'm there, turns around and returns fire. If not for bullet sponges, these enemies would not present any threat at all.

I just arrived in Constelation headquarters, so I'm pretty early in the game. I'll try to march on, but with such a rough start I'm not sure if I'll be able to get much deeper into this game.

 

[Late Bloomer]

I just arrived in Constelation headquarters, so I'm pretty early in the game. I'll try to march on, but with such a rough start I'm not sure if I'll be able to get much deeper into this game.

If you value your time, you should listen to your instincts. It doesn't get better.

 

[rubinstein]

I was watching this overly long review when I fell asleep only to wake up near the end of them talking about the npc characters looks and talking being… well Bethesda sameness which was a huge let down compared to BG3. Is BG3 character animations and emotions really the new level to raise to and base modern games from here on out?

its more about the fact that apparently writing has no edginess to it. its safe, bland, flat. good writing in vidya does not really need acting and animations. and good animations played during boring dialogues are worthless. nothing will replicate the feeling you get from the first important dialogue in deus ex. the guys talk and look like robots, yet all the heavy lines about corporate tax rates leave many players in mild shock wondering whats going. thats a hook. hook built into the game. i think a lot of gamers would be able to excuse poor animations etc. if starfield was trying to be interesting and daring for a second.
maybe when it comes to "industry standards" you are right, bg3 is the new benchmark. but so many things industry consider new standards, i (and i suppose many people here) consider decline.

 

[toro]

 

[ArchAngel]

Now we know who they used to model all the blacks in the game. This explains a lot :D

 

[negator2vc]

WTF is that?

 

[Robotigan]

After completing the questline in full, I feel even more strongly that Crimson Fleet is the best questline in the game. It's not even particularly close. It has the most intriguing plot hook. Makes better use of the setting and art assets. Leverages the game mechanics way more thoroughly, basically every decent use of space ships in the game (aside from the simulator) is in this questline. It has better stealth missions than the stealth faction. It has the most consequential decisions of any questline. And to top it all off, it has the best ending sequence of all the factions like 3x over. If the rest of the game were at this level of quality, it would have been received much better.

Yeah but doesn't it make half the world's enemies peaceful to you?

You go exploring and find a dangerous facility and nobody is hostile because they're Crimson Fleet?

This is cool though? If you get bored of Spacers and Ecliptics just jump to a new universe.

 

[Robotigan]

Ah, you guys realize she works exclusively on Fallout 76 and has a Master's in Computer Science (with great GPA apparently), right?

 

[Ramnozack]

Ah, you guys realize she works exclusively on Fallout 76 and has a Master's in Computer Science (with great GPA apparently), right?

Like I give a shit, bitch looks like the affirmative action IT clown.