Starcraft 2 AI (à la Best Thread Ever)

[Erzherzog]

I know alot of my first post was bitching, but I don't think it's too much to ask for a good reason why they think Starcraft is so much better that it transcends any reason for there to be a differing opinion.

 

[kingcomrade]

Gameplay is fast and control is tight, the balance is of course quite excellent, not just the unit balance but the underlying balance system that was built into the game (as compared to plain spearman > horse > archer > spearmen), the unit AI is intelligent enough so that you don't have to overly micromanage (if you wan an example of how this can ruin what would othewise be a fun game, check out Age of Mythology), there's a good pacing to the game beyond the quickness, you will always have things to do, the artwork is good and gives you information in very quick and easy to identify ways. There are more that other people would focus on but it is the balance, the overall feeling of tightness and control, the pacing of the gameplay, and the unit AI that makes Starcraft better than any other strategy game I've played.

 

[Kingston]

Plus firebats.

 

[Raapys]

It's the whole package. Everything about Starcraft was and is top-notch. Heck, the game's manual had dozens of pages just relaying the SC universe's background story. Voice acting was just great. The movies were, as usual when it came to Blizzard, ground-breaking. Story was superb. Excellent atmosphere. Tons of interesting units, compared to the mostly boring ones found in other RTS games those days. Longevity it had in spades, as obvious by the still huge popularity of the game. Just about 'bug-free' compared to today's games. Playability and UI was superb.

One might argue that another game might be better in specific areas, but even though I've played so many games I couldn't name half of them, I can't recall any where the whole was as good as in Starcraft.

That said, my most memorable RTS experiences are probably Dune 2, Warcraft 2 & Tiberian Sun. But that's probably mostly to do with me playing them while rather young, even though I still think them great games.

Why don't you mention a game you'd put in Starcraft's league?

 

[Erzherzog]

As far as strategy games, and judged by enjoyment?

Civil War: Antietam is probably my choice. Then again, I enjoy learning about the American Civil War, so the setting is one of it's primary strengths in my opinion. It plays completely different in comparison to Starcraft, I'm not a huge fan of resource gathering, so I prefer to fight with what I have. Doesn't make for battles to be so different from each other, but I sort of like comparing my past battles to more recent ones.

Granted, it doesn't have the same amount of features and such that Starcraft offers, but that's partially for good reason.

 

[Sovy Kurosei]

the unit AI is intelligent enough so that you don't have to overly micromanage

Yeah, having to nanny a bunch of units that wander off by themselves because they get stuck for a second in a chokepoint isn't overly micromanaging. Or having to babysit units so that you don't have a Terran wraith suicide itself on anti-air units or structures.

The unit AI in Starcraft was passable at best.

 

[kingcomrade]

Bitches don't know about my Hold Position command

I don't know what your first complaint means, I've been playing the game forever and never had pathing problems.

 

[Sovy Kurosei]

Bitches don't know about my Hold Position command

lol, so you defend your assertion that the unit AI is good enough that you don't need to overly micromanage by saying you need to micromanage it so that it doesn't do something stupid. GTFO.

Hold position doesn't help when a gaggle of air units spread themselves out and wander into range of a missile turret or spore colony.

I don't know what your first complaint means, I've been playing the game forever and never had pathing problems.

Yeah, and when was the last time you played as any race but zerg? Try moving dragoons and zealots through a chokepoint or marine/vultures and marines.

 

[kingcomrade]

lol, so you defend your assertion that the unit AI is good enough that you don't need to overly micromanage by saying you need to micromanage it so that it doesn't do something stupid. GTFO.

lol, so you defend your assertion that the unit AI is bad because it doesn't play the game for you? GTFO
If you don't want them to run around, you use the Hold Position key, the fucking command that is in the game for specifically that purpose. You complained that your units would run around contrary to your wishes. There is a command in the game put in specifically for when you didn't want them to run around. You have nothing to bitch about, retard.

Yeah, and when was the last time you played as any race but zerg? Try moving dragoons and zealots through a chokepoint or marine/vultures and marines.

I play other races all the time, what the hell do you think you're doing? Moving through chokepoints works fine for me, things slow down because it is, uh, a choke point, but I've not had any pathing issues.

 

[Elwro]

Come on, be reasonable. Daggerfall was buggy. V:TM's endgame sucks. Eschalon is too slow. Starcraft has pathing problems. They're all good games despite their shortcomings, but these shortcomings just are there and closing your eyes won't help.

 

[Sovy Kurosei]

I play other races all the time

Now I know you are just jerking my chain.

Oh well, at least you admitted that you need to micromanage the AI so it doesn't go off and do something stupid. I win.

 

[Raapys]

Those are more like shortcomings of the entire RTS genre in general, though. Even today's RTS AI isn't anywhere near good enough to avoid such situations. Only real solution would be to remove chokepoints completely, and that's sort of extreme for a rather minor inconvenience.

As for micromanagement, that's basically what the game and genre is about, so complaining in the direction is more like saying 'I don't like RTS games period'.

 

[Hellraiser]

Oh please the pathfinding in Starcraft was plain retarded at times. Marines would insist on following exactly the same path which resulted in bumping into each other and then trying to find an alternative route by going in a random direction and continuing moving to their destination from there.

In the end the result was that an extremely scattered group or the extremely efficient line formation also known as "they kill that guy first, then the guy in front of me, then me and then the guy behind me". You simply had to babysit them or you would piecemeal them to the enemy.

Oh and lets not forget groups of large units like siege tanks or dragoon trying to go up a ramp.

Fortunately judging from the trailers those issues won't be back in Starcraft 2.

 

[Raapys]

And again, that's been a problem with all RTS games for as long as I can remember. In all games any significant army that you send halfway over the map is bound to end up going in a long line.

AI simply isn't advanced enough to handle it. And I can guarantee you that the problem will be there in SC2 too. At least in the trailers I've seen everything's been pre-scripted.

 

[Hellraiser]

Well the WWI trailer most certainly was but the blizzcon video from the campaign presentation (which was recoded via "shaky cam" and showed a mission) showed the actual game (or rather demo) being played in real time rather than a pre-recorded presentation.

Well that and in supcom and a few other recent titles units actually move in blobs rather than lines.

 

[Raapys]

Hmm, perhaps some sort of 'formation' system? I'll see if I can find the blizzcon video.

 

[Marsal]

I agree with everyone OMG! The pathing problems are there, of course. And the "questionable" behavior of some units. But it's to be expected when a lot of units go through a (relatively) small space. Remember BG? You had 6 fucking units (characters) and they would get lost if you wanted them travel distance of more than a few "screens".

You need to learn to control and group you units for an attack. This is THE GAMEPLAY of Starcraft and similar games. If you don't want to control huge number units and have these problems, you could adapt by playing aggressively (attacking early and often with smaller groups). On the other hand, I know players who abandon the micromanaging in favor of expansion and massing units, so that they simply overwhelm the opponent.

WC3 controls much better than SC, IMO (fever units is a possible cause). Hold position is still your friend, though

 

[Raapys]

Had a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI6E9E9U2MU

I think the AI pathing looks pretty much adopted from Starcraft. The scenarios where the units aren't moving in long lines are those that look scripted or those where the units were already set up in a specific formation.

That said, the maps look like they have more space to move on, so to speak, so perhaps pathing is less of a problem for that reason. *shrug*

 

[Lurkar]

Starcraft pathing could be pretty bad, but - and maybe it's just me - pretty much any game I play recently is even *worse*.