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KickStarter Staples of design (in actual games) that need to die in a fire ASAP

Eyestabber

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While there's currently another thread for people who want to discuss why their FIFA microtransactions are oh so harmful, here I will point out the issues we, as in people who still play decent games and actively look for non-shit games, currently face. While things like loot boxes and micro transactions tend to be less common in indie RPGs and strategy games, we still face our share of design decisions that may not be as anti-consumer, but sure are anti-fun. Now, before the usual retards start spewing their usual drivel: this thread is NOT about micro transactions, pay to win, etc. If you play Diablo: Immortal, FIFA and the like, you're a soy filled manboon and you deserve to be milked like the tasteless cow you are. With that out of the way, it's bullet point time:

  • Modifier Hell: Paradox is the main source of this cancer, but it has spread into every other company and transcends the strategy genre. Basically, I find the "+2% +2% +3% -1% -3%" thing to be a frustrating design choice. It's fucking impossible for a sane person to keep track of infinity modifiers over several planets/bases/etc, multiple characters, races, troop types. The end result is always the same: the player goes "fuck it" and stops caring. I don't know how or why this came to be a standard in modern gaming, but FUCK modifier hell. Give us few modifiers that actually matter (at least 15%) and stop wasting our time with "dislikes fighting goblins under the moonlight on a Tuesday: -1.5 % accuracy".
  • RNG says "fuck you" mechanics: hard to pinpoint exactly where that came from, but basically modern indie games just LOVE to flip a coin and screw you through no fault of your own. This is trash design. Sure, it can be used sparsely and in meaningful ways, but I've yet to find a person with a triple digit IQ claiming the "comet spotted" event of EU IV is anything other than trash. These coinflip mechanics are lazy and used in lieu of a properly well thought out script. Recently I made the mistake of giving Darkest Dungeon a try and OH BOY, does that game enjoys its RNG says fuck you mechanics. Finished a dungeon with no casualties and no stress? Well, too bad, your guy now has syphilis and fears an enemy type he never encountered, lmao, guess he got tentacle raped by Eldritch horrors when I wasn't looking. RNG says fuck you mechanics punish the player for simply playing the game. The natural solution is, ofc, to stop playing.
  • Meta progression: unlike the previous two, I don't consider meta progression to be bad by itself, BUT it's being over used and not in a fun way. I'm ok with more complex stuff being locked behind meta progression, I think Slay the Spire is a prime example of progression done right, BUT OTOH we're seeing way too many games that give the player a bigger stat stick OR straight up lock core gameplay mechanics behind meta progression. I mean, COME ON, don't devs claim to care about new players and all that jazz? How does locking core gameplay mechanics behind some form of meta progression NOT fucks new players in the ass? And stat stick progression makes the player suspicious of his own success, as one wonders how much did he actually improved at the game and how much is due to the fact that his own tools now function better. Tainted Grail is a pretty bad ofender IMO as it locked the functionality of its archer classes behind meta progression by designing its core defense card as "double X" where X is a meta stat that starts at...ZERO. So the card is dead weight until you acquire meta stats. 11/10 design, goys! Another noteworthy example is Iratus: Lord of the Dead. In its early versions the game had no meta progression, but a town building system was introduced as soon as a big publisher took over. Coincidence? Or do suits believe indie games NEED meta progression because "big numba gud"?
  • Dailies/weeklies/seasonal events: all these rewards can go fuck themselves. Inb4 some retard claim "but it's just a bonus", fuck you, it is not. Dailies are usually tied to the game's overall meta progression, so it's a solution to an artificial problem. Fuck, I just remembered Killing Floor has this crap, and it's a FPS. Like I said, this cancer goes way beyond RPGs and strategy games.
  • Prestige/Ascension: so you played this indie game that was fun and interesting. How about replaying it but now everything has a "minus X because fuck you" attached to it? The gradually increasing difficulty for "extra challenge" is cancer that incentivizes meta obsession, reloads, rerolls and what have you. Since the game was originally designed around its default difficulty, it's unsurprising that adding a bunch of penalties to the player results in forcing him to play certain strategies, abuse certain exploits and turn what was once a relaxing experience into an overthinking sweat fest. I believe "hardcore modes" should be left to the deranged minds of masochistic modders.
  • Mandatory Ironman: such hardcore, much wow. "Roguelikes" and their obsession with limiting save files can crawl into a hole and die. Your autosave is always one bug away from completely fucking several hours worth of gaming. And even if no technical issues fuck with you, there's still the possibility of being screwed over by a missclick, a single UI-misinformed decision or plain old bad luck. The only time when this is acceptable is when the game is very short by design and you can finish a run in a single gaming session, like FTL/StS etc. In a grindy and LONG game like Darkest Dungeon, whoever decided to implement this "hardcore, bruh" feature deserves to be shot in the kneecaps.
  • Confusing skins/customizations/bad art direction: OK, this one is rare, but EXTREMELY ANNOYING when encountered. I remember reading a long article on why readability is KING and why everything in WC3 is out of proportion/looks cartoonish. Basically, the idea was to go for readability (meaning: the player can quickly tell what unit/building is on his screen, what spell is being cast etc) above all else. This is good design, IMO. What annoys me is precisely that nowadays readability is taking a backseat in a lot of games. Units that look similar to each other, spell effects that blend together and buildings that you can only tell apart if you bring up a tooltip. This makes for a miserable gameplay experience, tho some might disagree. The devs of Old World made a big post on why they decided to go for "fidelity" over convenience and that's a respectable choice, but one I had issues with. I prefer glancing at a map and being instantly able to tell a spearman from a swordsman even if that's achieved at the cost of cartoonish large weapons or impractical outfits. Anyway, that's a difference of opinion. OTOH shitty skins and cosmetics that make a unit look like another unit are nothing but straight up garbage. If you MUST shove that garbage into your game, at least make sure the unit's visual identity remains unchanged.
  • BLOAT: last but not least, a reminder that less is more and modern marketing kinda fucks with the quality of games. Because claiming your game has "over 100 feats to customize your character!", "hundreds of weapons and spells" and "dozens of classes and races to choose from" makes for great advertisement, we're seeing a regrettable trend of quantity over quality. Yes, there are 157 weapons in the game, but they all do the same shit with barely noticeable tradeoffs. Iratus was a much better game in its early stages, when it had less minions, but they all had a clear identity. I call this "modder mentality" because every game has mods that increase the number of weapons and armors, but it NEVER introduces new worthwhile mechanics to the games they mod. It's always adding shit for the sake of adding shit. That's bad, kids. When you make your dream game, please, DO take the time to comb the systems for redundant pieces and take them out.
That's all I could remember rn. There's probably more, like having six gorillion different resources that all serve the same purpose (quick reminder that Starcraft only had two and C&C had one, so your strategy game doesn't became "more strategical" because you added more shit for the player to keep track) and insulting itemization/character development meant to mask an auto-leveling system. Anyway, discuss!
 
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Victor1234

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Quality post, I'll also go with 'random popups that serve no purpose but fill your screen unless you click each one individually to turn them off'. Games like the Guild series (your employee that you set to pickpocketing has stolen $5 popup) or Rimworld (there's a rabid squirrel in the far left corner of the map, better watch out!).

They often top this with no message settings in the game or having the game pause on the popup. Player has to deal with it and close them one by one forever.

0822_SM_Clippy_help_o6nlh3.png
 

JarlFrank

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Shit-tier UI that looks like it belongs to office software: Way too many games out there that just don't get UI design anymore. The best example is Solasta. It looks like its windows were taken straight out of Windows 10. Doesn't fit the game's fantasy setting at all.

Crafting instead of finding unique items: It used to be that the main way of improving your equipment was to explore and discover unique items. Defeat the boss, he drops a legendary sword, that kind of thing. Nowadays so many games use crafting systems and most of them are just tedious and boring... and completely replace the unique item discoveries we used to get. Now it's not "delve into dungeon, defeat boss, get epic loot" but "discover a source of mithril, mine 50 ore pieces, smelt them, forge your own set of mithril weapons and armor". It's tedious, boring, repetitive. Especially since mining resources boils down to hitting a rock with your pickaxe 50 times, which is even worse than fighting trash mobs because even the weakest trash mob at least hits you back. The rock doesn't.

Grind: Farming trash mobs until you're high enough level to easily beat the boss isn't fun. Overcoming challenging encounters by clever use of your abilities and consumable items is fun. I'd rather play a shorter game where every fight is fun and can be won at the first attempt (or the second or third after a couple of reloads, when you've figured out the right approach) than a game that intends for you to grind trash mobs over and over again before you even stand a chance to defeat the next boss encounter.

Quest markers: They completely destroy exploration. If all you do is follow an obnoxious, immersion-breaking arrow hovering in the landscape, you're not exploring. You're being led by the hand like a little baby. Worse, games with quest markers are usually designed in a way that makes it impossible to play without the markers, as the devs didn't bother telling you where to go in a more natural way. Nobody ever gives you directions, so you either follow the retard arrow or you're left to wander cluelessly. Whoever invented quest markers needs to be charged with war crimes. The single worst element that has been introduced into "next gen" games. It led to a complete retardification of modern gamers. They don't read instructions anymore if you give them any, and then claim the game doesn't tell them where to go if it doesn't have quest markers, even though the game clearly did tell them several times. They just chose to ignore it.
 

Gregz

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I agree with all of the bolded criticisms offered so far, except to say that grinding and crafting can be very fun if implemented correctly. (Median XL)
 

Blutwurstritter

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Shit-tier UI that looks like it belongs to office software: Way too many games out there that just don't get UI design anymore. The best example is Solasta. It looks like its windows were taken straight out of Windows 10. Doesn't fit the game's fantasy setting at all.

Crafting instead of finding unique items: It used to be that the main way of improving your equipment was to explore and discover unique items. Defeat the boss, he drops a legendary sword, that kind of thing. Nowadays so many games use crafting systems and most of them are just tedious and boring... and completely replace the unique item discoveries we used to get. Now it's not "delve into dungeon, defeat boss, get epic loot" but "discover a source of mithril, mine 50 ore pieces, smelt them, forge your own set of mithril weapons and armor". It's tedious, boring, repetitive. Especially since mining resources boils down to hitting a rock with your pickaxe 50 times, which is even worse than fighting trash mobs because even the weakest trash mob at least hits you back. The rock doesn't.

Grind: Farming trash mobs until you're high enough level to easily beat the boss isn't fun. Overcoming challenging encounters by clever use of your abilities and consumable items is fun. I'd rather play a shorter game where every fight is fun and can be won at the first attempt (or the second or third after a couple of reloads, when you've figured out the right approach) than a game that intends for you to grind trash mobs over and over again before you even stand a chance to defeat the next boss encounter.

Quest markers: They completely destroy exploration. If all you do is follow an obnoxious, immersion-breaking arrow hovering in the landscape, you're not exploring. You're being led by the hand like a little baby. Worse, games with quest markers are usually designed in a way that makes it impossible to play without the markers, as the devs didn't bother telling you where to go in a more natural way. Nobody ever gives you directions, so you either follow the retard arrow or you're left to wander cluelessly. Whoever invented quest markers needs to be charged with war crimes. The single worst element that has been introduced into "next gen" games. It led to a complete retardification of modern gamers. They don't read instructions anymore if you give them any, and then claim the game doesn't tell them where to go if it doesn't have quest markers, even though the game clearly did tell them several times. They just chose to ignore it.
I would like to add markers of all kinds and in particular button prompts. Those fucking prompts are everywhere in newer games and to make things worse you are often forced to hold down a button, for no good reason whatsoever. Its just a small thing, but it really stood out to me after having replayed some games from times before this shit found its way from consoles to pc games. As if people are unable to remember a single use-button or so utterly retarded that they couldn't open a door without a hint in the middle of the screen.:argh:
 
Unwanted

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Title should be edited, replacing 'actual' for 'current'. I know, it's a common mistake for us romance language speaking fags.

Anyways, I'm glad I almost exclusively play old games. I would have very little patience for most of the bullshit highlighted here. Seems like issues stemming from devs learning their trade in college, who are taught how to keep the player addicted rather than engaged. Everything is a big autism simulator nowadays, I blame achievements in part, rarely anybody play games in a genuine manner anymore, in ways the players themselves find fun. Gamers today expect to be directed and told by the devs what to do and how to play. The sensation of playing current games is that of performing busy work, perhaps to prepare the upcoming generations for the soul-crushing nature of bullshit jobs they're expected to perform.
 
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Eyestabber

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Title should be edited, replacing 'actual' for 'current'. I know, it's a common mistake for us romance language speaking fags.
I know what you mean, but I meant "real games" not "2023 games". What I say here also apply to somewhat older games like EU IV (2013 game). So AFAIK the usage of the word "actual" is actually correct.

Didn't we have an identical thread a few weeks back?
You know you're allowed to read threads yourself, right? The one you linked has different points entirely, except for MAYBE the difficulty part being a somewhat similar complaint.

I agree with all of the bolded criticisms offered so far, except to say that grinding and crafting can be very fun if implemented correctly. (Median XL)
Err...grind for ingredients and repeat until RNGesus doesn't fuck you over is not a system I would consider fun. I like my crafting to be deterministic.
 

jimster

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Don't know if these count as "actual games."

Cutscene showing you the exit of an arena i.e. in Doomy Turtle. I can find it myself game I'm not retarded thank you.

Teleporting to another zone in the middle of gameplay for tutorials i.e. Doomy Turtle and Cyberp*nk 2077... FPS should be more intuitive and let you figure things out during gameplay, open world ARPGs should have an intro dungeon a la Betheshit but skippable for later playthroughs.
 
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About modifiers: Could be solved if the game showed ALL your modifiers. But yeah, I prefer bonuses/penalties/traits which radically change the game and open new abilities or close normal ones, instead of +% whatever.

Crafting instead of finding unique items:
Crafting was ok in Fallout New Vegas, AFAIK you didn't have to go out of your way to find the components.

Age of Decadence is another good example of crafting done right.
 

Pocgels

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Meta Progression is a term I've soured on recently. It's like the evolution of unlocking stuff, which everyone likes, but instead of being a reward for finishing on a higher difficulty or completing some specific challenge, "Meta progression" more often exists just as a way to increase the time you spend staring at the screen. I dislike but understand why they do it in live service games, but it's made its way into singleplayer stuff which is just retarded and disrespectful to the player's time.

The confusing skins/visual direction is worse than people realize, too. Turn-based stuff can get away with ugliness but any game where you have to think quickly you need to be able to see what is going on, so it really isn't cool if some skin turns the fire wizard's fireballs green. The WC3 example is good, I think, because the "Pauldroncore" style came from the unit's team colors and facing needing to be immediately clear for the players because it was a top-down RTS. So the look was a design decision, but ended up sticking around after Warcraft stopped being an RTS, just because it became "the warcraft look" - an artistic decision, rather than visual design.
 

0wca

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Shit-tier UI that looks like it belongs to office software: Way too many games out there that just don't get UI design anymore. The best example is Solasta. It looks like its windows were taken straight out of Windows 10. Doesn't fit the game's fantasy setting at all.

My example of a great UI is Shogun 2. Simple, great artwork, non-intrusive and gets the job done.
 

0wca

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Quest markers: They completely destroy exploration. If all you do is follow an obnoxious, immersion-breaking arrow hovering in the landscape, you're not exploring. You're being led by the hand like a little baby. Worse, games with quest markers are usually designed in a way that makes it impossible to play without the markers, as the devs didn't bother telling you where to go in a more natural way. Nobody ever gives you directions, so you either follow the retard arrow or you're left to wander cluelessly. Whoever invented quest markers needs to be charged with war crimes. The single worst element that has been introduced into "next gen" games. It led to a complete retardification of modern gamers. They don't read instructions anymore if you give them any, and then claim the game doesn't tell them where to go if it doesn't have quest markers, even though the game clearly did tell them several times. They just chose to ignore it.

This has also been a gripe of mine and I think a hybrid solution works best. In F:NV they at least had the NPC say: "here, let me mark it on your pip-boy" which made sense even though it was still a bit too specific sometimes.

You could fix this by making the marker reflect the journal entry for example:
"Kill the tribe of goblins to the east of dickfart forest" which would mark an area east of the forest on the map but not the exact location.

This would still promote exploration and maybe getting additional clues from NPCs could shrink the area down further.
 

Reinhardt

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Err...grind for ingredients and repeat until RNGesus doesn't fuck you over is not a system I would consider fun. I like my crafting to be deterministic.
i didn't disliked "craft" in etrian odyssey and other such games. you kill stuff and gather junk, bring it to the town and sell. and then guy crafts from it and unlocks items for sale in store depending on stuff you brought to him.
 

thesecret1

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This has also been a gripe of mine and I think a hybrid solution works best. In F:NV they at least had the NPC say: "here, let me mark it on your pip-boy" which made sense even though it was still a bit too specific sometimes.

You could fix this by making the marker reflect the journal entry for example:
"Kill the tribe of goblins to the east of dickfart forest" which would mark an area east of the forest on the map but not the exact location.

This would still promote exploration and maybe getting additional clues from NPCs could shrink the area down further.
I'd say that if you NEED to mark such things on a map, then the design of your open world is lacking. If your open world is designed well, then it is distinct, features many landmarks and other points of interests to reference. If your open world is a shit, amorphous mass where everything looks the fucking same, then yeah, giving directions can get pretty difficult, but the solutions aren't quest markers, but to design your world better. I mean, for example, there are no quest markers of any kind in Underrail, yet you never feel the need for them. NPCs provide very simple directions, and since the world is designed with many interesting places around it, it's enough.
 

WhiteShark

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Err...grind for ingredients and repeat until RNGesus doesn't fuck you over is not a system I would consider fun. I like my crafting to be deterministic.
i didn't disliked "craft" in etrian odyssey and other such games. you kill stuff and gather junk, bring it to the town and sell. and then guy crafts from it and unlocks items for sale in store depending on stuff you brought to him.
Etrian Odyssey was also a special case in that there were measures specific to each monster you could take to insure it dropped the part you needed (e.g., kill it while it was suffering a specific status condition, etc.), and typically for the fancy equipment you only needed one, so it encouraged the player to hunt down FOEs (map-wandering giant monsters) as soon as the party could handle it. In practice it felt more like pillaging the dragon's hoard than hitting 50 mithril rocks.
 

WhiteShark

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I'm surprised quest markers were mentioned but not the quest log itself. To me an explicit quest log feels very artificial and out of place. At most the game should provide a Morrowind-style journal. Why should there be an explicit distinction between 'information' and 'quests'? This also encourages the developer to make events, etc. less quest-trigger dependent. I can't even enumerate the number of bad RPGs I've played where a certain item or event simply will not appear if you haven't taken the triggering quest first, despite this making no in-world sense whatsoever.
 

JarlFrank

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You could fix this by making the marker reflect the journal entry for example:
"Kill the tribe of goblins to the east of dickfart forest" which would mark an area east of the forest on the map but not the exact location.
See, but when the game tells you "The tribe of goblins is to the east of dickfart forest" you don't need a marker at all, you just need a map that shows dickfart forest's location in relation to the town you're in and then you just grab a compass and know where to go.

"Ah yes, dickfart forest is to the north of Tardington, so I have to travel northeast to reach the goblin tribe."

It's like navigating roads before there was GPS.
 
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Crafting instead of finding unique items
this is not easy to balance, especially in fantasy. if the game is littered with magical items and there's crafting i demand to be able to build them myself, and if the lore shows me as some demigod invincible character i demand to be able to infuse my strenght into my crafting. morrowind did it right, limiting your power with the soulgems technology, but i liked the limitless magic system better: i just killed a god, it would be stupid if i hadn't some "snap my fingers and kill everyone nearby" spell.
if instead the best is only found around i feel cheated if crafting is included, and in [current year] we can't even have shoot-em-ups without crafting, so...
 

thesecret1

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I'm surprised quest markers were mentioned but not the quest log itself. To me an explicit quest log feels very artificial and out of place. At most the game should provide a Morrowind-style journal. Why should there be an explicit distinction between 'information' and 'quests'? This also encourages the developer to make events, etc. less quest-trigger dependent. I can't even enumerate the number of bad RPGs I've played where a certain item or event simply will not appear if you haven't taken the triggering quest first, despite this making no in-world sense whatsoever.
Morrowind had a quest log too, though. You could view it through a button in the journal, if memory serves. The reason for it is simple – a typical open world game has hundreds of quests, and the player often chooses to take on fifty at a time. Without some sort of a quest log, it's impossible to keep track of them all.
 

WhiteShark

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Morrowind had a quest log too, though. You could view it through a button in the journal, if memory serves. The reason for it is simple – a typical open world game has hundreds of quests, and the player often chooses to take on fifty at a time. Without some sort of a quest log, it's impossible to keep track of them all.
It appears that was an addition in the GotY version of the game.:decline:
I say just make it text searchable instead. If the journal automatically records that you heard data A, B, and C in location X, then searching for X would be sufficient.
 

WhiteShark

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Dice rolls for skill checks such as opening chests or successful conversation choices, especially if you can just reload.
Rather, dice rolls for skill checks etc. should only be used in a game with restricted saving. I think it would be fine in a roguelike format, but otherwise the game is just screaming, "SAVESCUM HERE! SAVESCUM HERE!"
 

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