Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

SoZ - win or fail?

How is SoZ?

  • Great!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Meh.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Define "SoZ".

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Silellak

Cipher
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Tucson, AZ
Annie Carlson said:
Hee. Yes, that song was based on "Scarborough Fair" in theme, but that song is really short and writing lyrics to it was tricky BUT. Honest truth. I wrote those lyrics in like 10 minutes. Hee.

ALSO THAT IS ALEX BRANDON SINGING! Don't let this "Andrew Barnabas" folderol fool you, that's all him. Also he did Volo's voice. HE IS AWESUM.

...Also, I imagine there's some sense I'm gonna defend SoZ here. I can say I wish we'd had more time to flesh out the story, but that it was purposefully kept pruned to make the player feel they had more freedom, and writing stuff for a hojillion characters is tricky. I don't like to make them be like "And HERE IS the life story PROVING I am nuanced and three-dimensional" because you don't walk into a fuckin' Target and all of a sudden the cashier starts telling you about the secret miscarriage she had when she was 17. ...at least not at the Targets I go to.

Anyhow. For the game we made and for the point we were shootin' for, I think we hit it. 'S not gonna be for everyone. BUT YEAH. ...Singing! How about it! :twisted:

Okay, I have to ask ya, I keep comparing this game (here, and to friends) as being similar, in some ways, to Pirates! Not in a bad way, mind you. This idea first formed when I saw the "Retrie whenever you want" button.

Did this ever occur to you guys during development, or am I completely out of my mind?
 

LeStryfe79

President Spartacus
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
7,503
Location
Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Yes, I love SoZ. The fact that I didn't really notice the writing actually means Annie & Co did a good job.

Thumbs up!



PS Fuck Gamespot
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"for the point we were shootin' for, I think we hit it."

You were targeting horriblely easy combat, bland exploration, and non atmospheric tiny 'rooms' that pass for horrid dungeons? WOW! Target hit big time!
 

Silellak

Cipher
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Tucson, AZ
Volourn said:
"for the point we were shootin' for, I think we hit it."

You were targeting horriblely easy combat, bland exploration, and non atmospheric tiny 'rooms' that pass for horrid dungeons? WOW! Target hit big time!

Seriously, Volourn, why do you insist on continuing to troll these threads?

I'm genuinely curious. And yes, it's trolling at this point. You've mentioned your disappointment with the game in every single SoZ-themed thread I've seen. Everyone is well aware of your opinion at this point, including the Obsidian dev you just wasted bandwidth responding to. You are adding absolutely nothing to the conversation.

You don't like it. Get over it, and move on. The game is not going to magically become the game you want no matter how much you whine about it.

If that's how the world worked, then all the whining about Fallout 3 from RPG Codex and NMA would've ensured a game that rivaled Fallout, Torment, and Arcanum combined.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
Why are you trolling me? I'm disucssing the game. Oh, i forgot. One can only be positive in these threads. Nope. WRONG.

Discuss the game. Not the Volourn. I'm irrelevant.

Now, stop trolling.

P.S. We're aware of your opinion of the game so why do you keep posting about it multiple threads? That's just trolling those of us who dislike the game. Everyone is aware of your opinion at this point including the Obsidian dev bn you just wasted defending (they cna take care of themselves, they don't need your help against pathetic me). You are adding nothing to the conversation.

You like it. Get over it, and move on. The game is not magically going to become the game you don't want no matter how much you whine about it.


See, not only you can post bullshit.
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
Are there any choices and consequences in SoZ? From what I've read it seems like it's mostly hack-n-slash. How does it compare to The Witcher and MotB in terms of C&C?
 
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
4,338
Location
Bureaukratistan
Jaime Lannister said:
Are there any choices and consequences in SoZ? From what I've read it seems like it's mostly hack-n-slash. How does it compare to The Witcher and MotB in terms of C&C?

On the light side, but there. Mostly they show up at the ending. Considering that most of MotB's C&C is drain that guy / don't drain that guy and what powers that will get you, I'd say it's pretty much the same here, but in MotB they feel more significant since it's generally a more, hm, immersive game. But, the same, kill that guy / don't kill that guy, liberate a town / don't. Maybe SoZ Command & Conquer is actually more varied, if you think of it. Comparing to TW, well, choices here don't seem to have much long-term effect, choosing between the three factions doesn't seem to do anything, and so on. To sum it up, don't play it for C&C, unless you consider character building choices and consequences.

Volourn, I had something like five challenging encounters in the game, if memory serves. Some others could be hard depending on your level and team build-up, or they all could be easy if you overlevel and powergame, but I'd say that you're bound to run in to some challenging encounters unless you kill absolutely everything in sight on the overland map. The random encounters suffer from usually having no mages or such, so they really don't exploit any of your low saves, and only a few consist of enough monsters to be a threat to you. A shame, maybe that's something that could be modded. But my point is that you haven't seen the tough fights of the game, and I suppose there were quite a few if you don't like grinding (like I do).

Overall, I give it 7/10 non-inflated points. The music is awesome, D&D powergaming is fun, and the incredible amount of stat checks is something I wish every game had, even if they don't produce other effects than letting you show off. The greatest flaws are awful engine and UI, small dungeons and small amount of special encounters (well there are quite a few but they are mostly very short).

I just really wish RPG developers would stop making shit unoptimised 3D engines. I had to play Crysis and Supreme Commander after this just to see that my machine isn't broken or something.
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
"choosing between the three factions doesn't seem to do anything"

What are the factions? Or is that major SPOILARZ?
 
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
4,338
Location
Bureaukratistan
Jaime Lannister said:
"choosing between the three factions doesn't seem to do anything"

What are the factions? Or is that major SPOILARZ?

Not big spoilers, I suppose. They're merchant cartels, basically good/neutral/evil. For example, choosing evil (Fated Winds) doesn't really give you opportunities to exploit the needy or really seem to have any effect on anything. Maybe it effects the kind of items you get to buy, and it has one quest where you can buy cheap skins or something like that, and while I haven't tried, I'll bet the quest is the same no matter with which cartel you ally. You also get to buy ranks in the cartel, but I'm not sure if that does anything, either. I just bought them since I was so filthy rich.

I can't just stop bitching about the engine. Seriously, what kind of computer do you need to run it with consistently good framerates? Or do you just need to set all effects and such off/low? I just noticed I hadn't enabled DX10 on Crysis and that there is a setting above high settings. Well it seems to run flawlessly on very high settings, so at least I suppose it means my machine isn't broken or anything. Sheesh, stop making 3D engines if it's too much effort to optimize them.
 

AlanC9

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 12, 2003
Messages
505
With effects between high and medium, I get fine framerates with a 1650XT vidcard and an Athlon dual core 3600. These days that's a pretty crappy machine, isn't it?
 

Silellak

Cipher
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Tucson, AZ
AlanC9 said:
With effects between high and medium, I get fine framerates with a 1650XT vidcard and an Athlon dual core 3600. These days that's a pretty crappy machine, isn't it?

The NWN2 engine just seems incredibly picky about what it will or won't run well on.
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
So it's NWN2 combat with fake choices and basically no story? Why would any codexer like that?
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
JrK said:
Yes, why do Codexers like games like Wizardry 8 and Icewind Dale? :roll:

They like the combat? I don't know any Codexer who's praised the NWN2 engine combat.

Or if you want a more witty reply: I didn't know Wizardry 8 and Icewind Dale used the NWN2 engine.
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,670
Fake choices? Oh yeah, solving Westharbor problems clearly doesn't have consequences, right?
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
Black said:
Fake choices? Oh yeah, solving Westharbor problems clearly doesn't have consequences, right?
Jaime said they were fake. He didn't play the game and judging from his questions he doesn't know much about it. That obviously means he is right in his assesment and knows what he is talking about.
Same goes for Volly who didn't even play half-way through but judges the combat to be horribly easy.
Ah well, this is the internet. Everyone knows best.

I finished the game yesterday and must say:
The story (or lack thereof) would have been fine for an exploration/economic game. Unfortunately the economic side was not well implemented at all. Exploration suffered from far to many monster-spawns. While I was able to evade 99% of them, every single caravan was waylaid and that amount of monsters seems to be far too much for a rather civilized part of the realms. Especially stuff like random elementals didn't make much sense. Less encounters over all, a higher percentage of logical encounters (bandits and normal wild life), more diverse encounters (all bandits were EL 9) with some spell casters strewn in and a higher chance of encounters spotting you (or take the average of the party skills in hiding and sneaking and not just the selected character's). For the overland map and skills uses on it they should have take some cues from Mount&Blade.
Back to the story: In the end they tried to shoe-horn the story into an epic "you must save the world" (or at least part of it) thingy which ruined the whole non-epic goodness it had before. Now you have the fans of epic story-lines mad, as well as people like me. They should have instead focussed on end-game merchant related stuff and made the yuan-ti threaten your merchant empire and your life. I would have liked to make some region affecting decisions after my company became powerful. Some taste of powers that only vast amounts of money bring with it.
Having to rely on buggy fan-patches to keep buffs during overland travel wasn't the best feature either.
The whole party thing would have worked much better too, if one could have changed the party leader. My character for overland travel was my second character. While that wasn't a problem in most of Samarach it became a pain on the Sword Coast. If you stay in the module the selected character for overland travel after area changes remains the same. If the area change means a change of module which happens often on the SC but seldom in Samarach the game switches to the party leader when changin to the overland map. Since all areas are loaded 1-2 seconds before you can take any action the 3-4 mobs that I evaded while coming to the town/location suddenly see my party leader and I have to go into the whole "load for 10 seconds, fight for 30 seconds, load for 10 seconds" routine. And that up to 4 times... Of course the whole problem only became apparent after I had already played through a significant portion of the game (read: after I entered the SC).
Combat: Most random encounters are easy if the enemies EL isn't more than 2-4 levels over your party's (especially if you mod it to keep your buffs. Something that even IE games hat...). Could have used more magic using enemies. Bandits seemed to be the only ones with wizards. Map-locations/dungeons: Very few had any merit in dungeon crawling but quite a few provided challenging fights. The last 3 locations were difficult and a few of the early ones if you stumbled upon the too soon. The mid game has the fewest tough locations but that probably depends on when you encounter them. My cohort usually commented on the location if he deemed them dangerous.
Otherwise it is still the atrocious NWN(2) combat, made barely acceptable by the inclusion of Tony_K's companionai mod(SoZ included some of the mod but left out significant parts so I had to include the full mod again). An auto-pause feature would have gone a long way to push the gameplay to at leas acceptable levels.

The game thoroughly polished would get a 73/100. The game on an engine that combined the strengths of ToEE and M&B would get an 82/100. The game polished with better story and better engine would get at least 92/100 from me.
But as it is it'd get a 62/100 (slightly better than FO3) and thus a solid "meh".


PS: @Annie: Is the end-fight bugged? Only one out of ten spells or hits actually hit the herald. And the dialogue box didn't mention "spell resisted" or "damage reduction absorbed all damage". Or was there simply too much stuff happening at the same time and I missed the relevant messages? Had to fight on easy after reloading several times because no matter what I did, I couldn't get the herald past "severely wounded" with half my party dead and mostly out of spells...
Would have been fun in a TB game, though.
 

janjetina

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
14,231
Location
Zagreb, Croatia
Torment: Tides of Numenera
Shannow said:
PS: @Annie: Is the end-fight bugged? Only one out of ten spells or hits actually hit the herald. And the dialogue box didn't mention "spell resisted" or "damage reduction absorbed all damage". Or was there simply too much stuff happening at the same time and I missed the relevant messages? Had to fight on easy after reloading several times because no matter what I did, I couldn't get the herald past "severely wounded" with half my party dead and mostly out of spells...
Would have been fun in a TB game, though.

I had no problem with the herald fight on the Core rules - I found it challenging, had to resurrect a few companions during the fights, but I did it on the first try.
First you need to take out everyone else, then go for the Herald.
 
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
4,338
Location
Bureaukratistan
Jaime Lannister said:
They like the combat? I don't know any Codexer who's praised the NWN2 engine combat.

At first it seems like there are lots of cool tactical options (well, in the beginning there is), but in the end, you don't get to utilize them enough, or don't need to. While I may bitch about it now, I still maintain my 7/10 fun, addictive game. I suppose I just like leveling up. PoR : Remastered had better combat, though.

Black said:
Fake choices? Oh yeah, solving Westharbor problems clearly doesn't have consequences, right?

Has what now?
Affects the ending which you can fix with a skill check anyway, or if you let the dragons rule, you don't get to solve the other quests. But you can - and will - change your mind and kill the dragons in the end, because you'll want the experience. I don't know if kill guy / don't kill guy is fake choices, but that's what SoZ has.

janjetina said:
I had no problem with the herald fight on the Core rules - I found it challenging, had to resurrect a few companions during the fights, but I did it on the first try.
First you need to take out everyone else, then go for the Herald.

Low will saves could be a problem, though, since those daze/fear effects take damn long to get rid of. I ended up sending Ribsmasher to the left to die and kill the two zealots there, and while everyone attacks him (with Dread Wraps he's immune to almost everything, still dies pretty fast thouh), the barbarian and assassin kill off the other flank. Had to try many times, often my Spirit Shaman would just die to some random spell/etc, or the fighter-types would fail their saves against daze, and so on and so on. The best fight in the NWN2 series, really, more of these.
 

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,773
Shannow said:
They should have instead focussed on end-game merchant related stuff and made the yuan-ti threaten your merchant empire and your life. I would have liked to make some region affecting decisions after my company became powerful. Some taste of powers that only vast amounts of money bring with it.

Exactly my opinion. Creating and protecting a trade empire could have been a very original and interesting plot, offering many unusual possibilities. It's a pity Obsidian didn't have the guts to avoid using the old "save the world" formula for once.

Is the end-fight bugged? Only one out of ten spells or hits actually hit the herald.

My missile storms worked perfectly against the Herald. On the other hand, spells allowing reflex saves are of little use against him because he has greater evasion.

Demnogonis Saastuttaja said:
The best fight in the NWN2 series, really, more of these.

I think so, too. But then, the NWN1/2 series have a severe lack of entertaining fights (BG2 and ToB had plenty of those ; how hard could it be to emulate them, seriously ?).
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,670
Demnogonis Saastuttaja said:
Has what now?
Affects the ending which you can fix with a skill check anyway, or if you let the dragons rule, you don't get to solve the other quests. But you can - and will - change your mind and kill the dragons in the end, because you'll want the experience. I don't know if kill guy / don't kill guy is fake choices, but that's what SoZ has.
If you side with the dragons, can you later trade with Tarmas? Can you establish a trading post? Or if you side with the villagers, can you buy that dragon resource? No, you can't. How bout swamp cult quest? There were 2 options for me, Intimidate or Diplomacy- if you use Diplomacy one of the cultist survives and if you use Intimidate he sides with the rest and you have to kill him. And villagers of West Harbor don't react the same to both outcomes.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"Same goes for Volly who didn't even play half-way through but judges the combat to be horribly easy."

yeah, yeah. Like all i games I stop playing, SOZ magically becomes better/harder 5 seconds after I quit. LMAO

Coincidence much?
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom