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[Hümmelgümpf]

How is Morrowind "dumbed down" Daggerfall?

Daggerfall: Random world, everything looks the same, generic fantasy.

Morrowind: Hand-crafted world, extremely varied, fucking mushrooms everywhere.

Daggerfall: Repetitive, mindless quests, and a broken main quest.

Morrowind: A fun if slightly mediocre main quest, tons of unique quests, tons of ways to solve quests, mutually exclusive quests, quests to kill rival guild leaders, etc.

Daggerfall: Boring corridor dungeons.

Morrowind: Unique dungeons where rooms feel like they serve a purpose.

Yep, Morrowind was soooooo dumbed down.

Add to that:

Daggerfall: 94875698 potentially game breaking bugs around every corner.

Add to that:

Daggerfall: The best character creation system to date (except Darklands maybe)
Daggerfall: King of Worms

 

[xuerebx]

I prefer MW over DF. I like both, but even the fact that in MW I could explore the 'beautiful' world (which is an important aspect for sandbox games IMO) in 3D. And because there were less skills doesn't mean it's dumbed down, I'm tired of that word thrown about. Besides the fact that the skills removed weren't that important (though the skills removed in Oblivion were important, such as unarmoured).

And MW was 'handcrafted', DF was randomized. BUT, some randimization in games is good. Also, features such as repair taking 2 days, only being able to advance rank once per month etc were very good ideas that should have stayed in MW.

But anyway, both are good, I prefer MW. Also, though 5 years old, MW's graphics can be extended to being so much better. My Morrowind. Vanilla Morrowind. And the art in MW is definitely better than Oblivion's generic fantasy. Can't compare it to DF though, too different, one tries to be realistic, while the other is 'drawn'.

 

[St. Toxic]

I played through Morrowind again recently and found my views on it to change quite drastically. It's been long enough now to completely shed my disappointment that it wasn't 'Daggerfall 2' and look at it objectively.

More like, you played a 2002 game with a 2008 mindset and went all giggly over the general lack of stupid in comparison to that of current-gen releases.

It's qualities as an RPG are a different matter. They dumbed down Daggerfall, no doubt about that. But there's enough there for a reasonable, if frustrating, RPG experience.

I'm saving this for when you say the exact same thing about Oblivion, 4 years from now.

How is Morrowind "dumbed down" Daggerfall?

It's made easily accessable at the cost of intelligent design, which is what dumbed down means (protip), so your DF v.s. MW comparison list doesn't fit in. Also, there's nothing fun in Morrowind, so maybe you should revise your statements and opinions. B)

Bloodlines was deemed flawed for damn good reason.

The same reason no one really notices the flaws in FO3, for instance?

I prefer MW over DF. I like both, but even the fact that in MW I could explore the 'beautiful' world (which is an important aspect for sandbox games IMO) in 3D.

I'd rather have a world worthy of exploring, whatever the visiual representation may be, rather than a beautifully rendered piece of rock to scrutinize, "imo".

And because there were less skills doesn't mean it's dumbed down, I'm tired of that word thrown about. Besides the fact that the skills removed weren't that important (though the skills removed in Oblivion were important, such as unarmoured).

So, removing skills in Oblivion is dumbing down, but removing skills in Morrowind is not? I like the way you think.

My Morrowind. Vanilla Morrowind.

Just another thing about Morrowind I don't get. Both those screens look terrible; always have and always will. But apparently people praise it for the graphics (even to this day ). It looks just like Project Entropia had sex with Outcast, with the product being an ugly larper kid. What gives, gringos?

 

[onemananadhisdroid]

The same reason no one really notices the flaws in FO3, for instance?

There's a difference between minor quibbles and a game being riddled with bugs, as well as it turning from Torment into cookie cutter Bloodrayne clone just when its devs apparently realized they bit off more than they could have ever hoped to chew - once again.

 

[xuerebx]

I'd rather have a world worthy of exploring, whatever the visiual representation may be, rather than a beautifully rendered piece of rock to scrutinize, "imo".

Morrowind was worthy of exploring, if it wasn't I wouldn't be playing it up to this day, with the same 4-5 characters.

So, removing skills in Oblivion is dumbing down, but removing skills in Morrowind is not? I like the way you think.

I never implied that. I said the skills removed in Oblivion were quite important, such as unarmoured. The ones removed in MW weren't as important, such as climbing, impish, orcish etc. Anyway, maybe you thought they were important, reducing skills doesn't mean a game is 'dumbed down'. Taking away useless skills certainly isn't. You might argue they weren't useless, I found them to be though.

Just another thing about Morrowind I don't get. Both those screens look terrible; always have and always will. But apparently people praise it for the graphics (even to this day ). It looks just like Project Entropia had sex with Outcast, with the product being an ugly larper kid. What gives, gringos?

Well that's subjective, the screenshot I took I think it looks great. And who ever praised MW for its graphics? For its art maybe.

 

[St. Toxic]

There's a difference between minor quibbles and a game being riddled with bugs, as well as it turning from Torment into cookie cutter Bloodrayne clone just when its devs apparently realized they bit off more than they could have ever hoped to chew - once again.

Just as there's a difference in you turning a blind eye to one game, and fairly trashing the other. Gosh, repeating myself here.

Morrowind was worthy of exploring, if it wasn't I wouldn't be playing it up to this day, with the same 4-5 characters.

If it was, I wouldn't have dropped it at the speed of a lepraridden infant. Logic at work in this one. B)

I never implied that. I said the skills removed in Oblivion were quite important, such as unarmoured. The ones removed in MW weren't as important, such as climbing, impish, orcish etc. Anyway, maybe you thought they were important, reducing skills doesn't mean a game is 'dumbed down'. Taking away useless skills certainly isn't. You might argue they weren't useless, I found them to be though.

This is you not implying that Morrowind wasn't dumbed down by removing skills, while Oblivion was dumbed down for the very same reason. Ok, I'll make a note of that for future reference. B)

Well that's subjective, the screenshot I took I think it looks great.

Well, you have terrible taste. What can I say? Good luck in the future.

And who ever praised MW for its graphics? For its art maybe.

Why, you did, of course. In your last post, look:

Also, though 5 years old, MW's graphics can be extended to being so much better.

I just happened to call you on it. That's all. And my PE+OC statement covers the art direction as well. (I do have to say that, from what I recall, the installer, with the concept art, looked pretty good.)

 

[xuerebx]

Ah well I didn't know you disliked Morrowind, so arguing over this was canny useless eh? MW still is my favourite game, so the beauty I see in it you won't see it or like it. Different tastes I guess (and there is no such thing as terrible taste ) Unless you like turds of course.

 

[St. Toxic]

Ah well I didn't know you disliked Morrowind, so arguing over this was canny useless eh?

Almost useless. Your defense against MW being dumbed down can now be summed up with "...because I like Morrowind.", but all in all that's pretty useless too.

 

[xuerebx]

When you're a fanboy you're ready to overlook some things. I happen to be an ES fanboy. What fanboy are you, Mr.Toxic?

 

[Jaime Lannister]

"Also, there's nothing fun in Morrowind"

It's not a great game, it's hardly a good one. But it's far more fun than Daggerfall.

Protip: Oblivion was dumbed down because it removed features, not skills.

 

[Xi]

The ones removed in MW weren't as important, such as climbing, impish, orcish etc. Anyway, maybe you thought they were important, reducing skills doesn't mean a game is 'dumbed down'. Taking away useless skills certainly isn't. You might argue they weren't useless, I found them to be though.

What!?!! Seriously!!?!?! Climbing was probably one of the most unique skills from Daggerfall and there was a LOT of backlash from the community when Beth said they had removed it. Seriously, that skill alone changes the entire development process of a game. They have to design everything to include the potential to climb.

Removing skills is always bad when we compare the removal to the expansion and added usefulness of the skills instead.

 

[Darth Roxor]

What!?!! Seriously!!?!?! Climbing was probably one of the most unique skills from Daggerfall and there was a LOT of backlash from the community when Beth said they had removed it. Seriously, that skill alone changes the entire development process of a game. They have to design everything to include the potential to climb.

Indeed. I wish more RPGs had a climbing skill.

 

[Xi]

Indeed. I wish more RPGs had a climbing skill.

Does your rogue/assassin/whatever have less role-play potential without a climbing skill? Fuck yes! This is the concept of dumbing down. Removing aspects of a game, to simplify development, which results in a simplification of the role-play mechanics. Sometimes it is done to appeal to a wider audience, and other times it's simply taking the easy way out.


Morrowind and Oblivion were dumbed down from the awesomeness of Daggerfall. They could have incorporated more things from DF and both games would have been immensely better RPGs. Instead, they did the opposite. Go figure?

 

[xuerebx]

You're right, I was actually trying to include any skill removed off the top of my head. The ones which I really thought were useless are the impish, orcish, giantish, nymph, and spriggan. Never really made much use of any of these, so I don't know how good they actually were.

Also, if something is removed which makes the game more fun I'm all for this said thing to be removed [in general, not about MW]. What I actually miss from MW is the repair system (taking two days for an item to be repaired), and the advancement policy, only being able to advance rank once per month.

 

[St. Toxic]

Protip: Oblivion was dumbed down because it removed features, not skills.

And skills are ... what exactly?

What fanboy are you, Mr.Toxic?

It's St. Toxic, and I'm not really qualified to be a fanboy.

 

[xuerebx]

It's fun, you should try it sometimes, St.Toxic.

 

[Xi]

You're right, I was actually trying to include any skill removed off the top of my head. The ones which I really thought were useless are the impish, orcish, giantish, nymph, and spriggan. Never really made much use of any of these, so I don't know how good they actually were.

Well they were only useless because the developers didn't expand their use within the game. Instead of removing them, they could have increased their usefulness. That's the point. You're acting like they have to remain what they were and I think others are saying that they should keep them in some aspect and increase the reason that someone would choose them. This is more of a dumbing down to take the easy way out though. It would truly be difficult to incorporate them all.

Off the top of my head, they could have had a single skill that incorporated them all where the skill level determined which languages you understood. This, of course, has its own problems. Still, it's better than outright removing them.

Plus the game loses a lot of its lore when the languages are outright removed. The player loses a sense of indifference and the reason so many of the different races war and fight amongst one another. They simply are culturally different and do not always understand each other's ways. This was the reason to have them, especially considering that the game's lore was one of its biggest features initially. Plus, they expanded on the Daedric concept too much and removed some areas of the lore that could have been developed with far more depth.(All monsters are daedra, really?)

Instead of focusing on game-play design and implementation, they hire more engine programmers, artists, and sound engineers. That's essentially dumbing down. They alter their focus to the features that market a sale. We all know that graphics, like sex, sells. So it only makes sense, from a business perspective, to do this, but given that these games rake in a lot of cash, hiring a few more designers to implement more skills and functionality would certainly be a plus.

 

[xuerebx]

You're right, and I agree with what you said. It would have been better if the skills were made more useful instead of scrapping them, or adding more skills. Though my initial argument was that even though certain skills were removed it didn't 'dumb down' the game per se. I use those words, 'dumbed down', when something is made ridiculously easy or very silly. In this case, even though it was a bit of disappointing for the fans, I don't think it was that major. What I would really like to see a return of is the repair skill and rank advancement as it was in daggerfall.