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Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

Nael

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
11,384
Location
Indy
Luzur said:
i often encounter dragon while they are being pummeled by bears.

and badly pummeled too, like a rag.

strangely enough ive never seen one do a pick up and drop move, like in that gif.

nor have ive seen any NPC's pick up anything i thrown on the town square either.

what gives Bethesda? was it all lies?

I've seen dragons throw townspeople around before.

I've also seen people loot dead bodies and pick stuff up off the ground. In fact, in the inn in Solitude I dropped the Radiant Raiment shirt that was given to me by that High Elf chick and some guy in the bar walked up and asked if I needed it anymore before taking it. Granted he called it a "chest piece" or a "chest plate" but I still thought that was pretty neat AI.

Do you have any mods installed that might effect AI?
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Luzur said:
what gives Bethesda? was it all lies?

I have seen npcs (and my char) being picked up by a landed dragon with it's mouth and thrown around, but maybe that's a finishing move, I was dead afterwards.

And the stuff about townspeople picking up things you dropped has been confirmed by other people on the forum.
 

hiver

Guest
Seen dragons finishing guards by biting them whole and throwing them around like bags. Did that to me too few times when i was foolish enough to go direct melee for long.
They also made very low swoops as if they are going to pick up someone but it never happened.

bethesda most probably intentionally gimped them not to make their mass market cry.
or its a bug.

anyways, ... im trying to talk some modders into enhancing dragons as they should be.
1. Make them much stronger then ordinary guards and wildlife
2. Allow them to perform their finishing moves on such lower enemies much more often.
3. actually use a much wider assortment of shouts including disarm, knockback, freeze etc.
 

Nael

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
11,384
Location
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hiver said:
Seen dragons finishing guards by biting them whole and throwing them around like bags. Did that to me too few times when i was foolish enough to go direct melee for long.
They also made very low swoops as if they are going to pick up someone but it never happened.

bethesda most probably intentionally gimped them not to make their mass market cry.
or its a bug.

anyways, ... im trying to talk some modders into enhancing dragons as they should be.
1. Make them much stronger then ordinary guards and wildlife
2. Allow them to perform their finishing moves on such lower enemies much more often.
3. actually use a much wider assortment of shouts including disarm, knockback, freeze etc.

Agreed. It really puts a damper on the whole "HOLY SHIT! DRAGONS ARE BACK!" when all you need to defeat them is maybe someone skilled in Ice Troll husbandry :roll:
 

hiver

Guest
Yah.
These three things would completely change our impression of them. A Dragon that lands onto some guards/bears/trolls then kills them all, by burning/freezing/tossing them around the scenery or even at you - and then proceeds to give you its full attention by freezing/disarming and generally whooping a holy can of ass out of you would be truly impressive thing.

Especially if it could shout all those wonderful things at you while flying.

Best of all - no need to bloat its health or damage at all.
 

shiggidyshwa

Novice
Joined
Nov 26, 2011
Messages
72
hiver said:
Seen dragons finishing guards by biting them whole and throwing them around like bags. Did that to me too few times when i was foolish enough to go direct melee for long.
They also made very low swoops as if they are going to pick up someone but it never happened.

bethesda most probably intentionally gimped them not to make their mass market cry.
or its a bug.

anyways, ... im trying to talk some modders into enhancing dragons as they should be.
1. Make them much stronger then ordinary guards and wildlife
2. Allow them to perform their finishing moves on such lower enemies much more often.
3. actually use a much wider assortment of shouts including disarm, knockback, freeze etc.

I'd like this kind of thing done not just dragons but for all enemies, so if your contacts are serious about it, it's be cool to ask them to consider refining the enemy AI (possible?). Most only have 2-3 moves which consist of their normal attack and power attack. For mages it's 1 normal spell, 1 advanced spell, and 1 heal. Their only maneuvers are attack, run for heal, and beg for mercy.

Players can sidestep projectiles but enemy AI don't do that. It's weird because in many situations, they know you're shooting spells/arrows. How? Lower level melee units run for cover. Doesn't seem a stretch to me for them to be able to sidestep. Wolves run for cover then circle back around to gank you. I think this could be expanded to allow for more advanced movement for all enemy units.

Players can also sidestep slower melee attacks and power attacks, but enemy units just stand there and block it, which breaks their block and leaves them totally open for 1-2 normal attacks from you. At the very least, bosses should have this programmed into their behaviour. Using a shield, I've also been able to block enemy attacks at the last second, but enemies don't do this. They randomly enter block mode until the timer on the block runs out or you break it. I don't think I've ever seen one block one of my random attacks - not even bosses. However, I've experienced enemies interrupting my power attacks with a shield bash, even if I did it from a distance.

Equipping some units with potions might make for more dynamic combat. Not just healing potions but poisons that halt stamina/magic/health regen or paralyze you. How come I can loot mammoth cheese off a dead body but nobody has a minor stamina potion on them? A few people have commented that diversity of enemies can make the combat more dynamic. I think there's enough variety in enemy mobs, but it's their behaviour that's stale.

There are probably a ton of ways the combat in Skyrim could be improved. What I think it boils down to is that it gets utterly predictable with the exception of a few notable bosses, which can still be taken care of by manipulating their crappy pathfinding and lack of jumping.

A typical example is fighting a bear. It behaves in one of two ways: it attacks or it power attacks. I'm faced with a tactical decision that basically only has one option: block. If the bear had additional moves like a charge that knocked down, a bite that paralyzed, a swipe that caused concussive head trauma even through a block, or a roar that randomly summoned a fellow bear, it might vary things some.

I get that many don't like this game, and I have my reservations as well, but from a completely objective pov, does it make sense to tackle combat mechanics first and foremost, or does the leveling system deserve modding priority?
 

shiggidyshwa

Novice
Joined
Nov 26, 2011
Messages
72
Ed123 said:
AI doesn't specifically sidestep projectiles, but archers will randomly strafe and some animals have deliberately erratic pathing routines (e.g. wolves).

Oh cool I didn't realize enemy archers did that. I do see them strafe while they pull the bow string, but it's still pathetically easy to hit them while they do that. The game allows us to pull silly FPS moves like side to side strafing, so enemy archers should be able to do same, no?

Agree with the wolves. It's sometimes hard to hit them with projectiles when they zigzag to you. When they get to you though they just typically slash at you until low on health. Then they circle around, most of the time in plain view, then come back to do it all over again.

I wanna point out I'm not saying make the combat more realistic. I just want it more dynamic. Of course IRL wolves will just jump you and slash til you're dead, but in a fun action game, wolves will knock me to the ground, bite my leg for bleeding damage, knock off parts of my weapons and armour, etc. Not to mention that in packs of 3, they might never come in close for melee combat but just circle around and hit me from all sides kind of like what the ice wraiths do. What this does is get me to use snares like runes and paralysis or freezing to fight them, rather than just facing off toe to toe and seeing who has better weapons and armour (me obviously).

To the learned: Would adding more enemy AI moves like the aforementioned significantly increase the game file size or decrease performance? It's not like I'm asking for a Deep Blue grade AI, just pre-programmed tasks that AI pull in certain if/or/and situations.

Honestly, if combat were this dynamic I'd forget about all the other problems Skyrim has, even if just for a day. Imagine all the fun I could have with Skeevers.
 

hiver

Guest
shiggidyshwa said:
I'd like this kind of thing done not just dragons but for all enemies, so if your contacts are serious about it, it's be cool to ask them to consider refining the enemy AI (possible?). Most only have 2-3 moves which consist of their normal attack and power attack. For mages it's 1 normal spell, 1 advanced spell, and 1 heal. Their only maneuvers are attack, run for heal, and beg for mercy.
I dont have any contacts.
I just post suggestions like these in every thread about improving Dragons or different realism mods that are planned and hope someone will go for it.

Various Ai enhancements are in plan, as tweaking many other features as soon as CS comes out.
Im pretty alright with combat so far in my game, its probably because i play as jack of all trades and dont use any of the overpowered cheats like crafting, enchanting and so on and i just play the damn game instead of min/maxing the shit out of it.

Dragon behavior and their ability to get killed by various wild life is most glaring to me so all the effort my lazy ass can muster goes toward that front.
 

Malaclypse

Novice
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
4
Location
Cambridge, United Kingdom of Butthurt
The ending of the Imperial/Stormcloak quest is a complete fucking anticlimax. I played to the end of the Imperial quest ("Reunification of Skyrim"). General Tullius gives his victory speech to about a dozen soldiers who don't even give a fuck and just stand there staring at each other. Then what? People will carry on talking about the conflict like you never did anything, you can't wipe out the rebels because they have quest-essential NPCs who'll never die, and the exiled jarls will stay holed up in the Palace of Kings sitting around a dinner table and occasionally getting up and staring at Ulfric's corpse saying "What happened here?" or "Glad that wasn't me" like they have some kind of post-traumatic disorder.
 

hiver

Guest
Yeah, sounds fucking terrible by all accounts. Thats why i avoid it as much as i can.
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
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Havoc said:
Skyrim is to dragons, like Twilight is to vampires.

wseoq.gif


:thumbsup:
 

baronjohn

Cipher
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
2,383
Location
USA
The C&C in Skyrim is terrible.

Everyone clearly knows that I am the dragonborn, slayer of Alduin, arch-mage of Winterhold, listener of the dark brotherhood, master conjurer and avatar of a dozen demigods. I have more artifacts laying around my mansion than there are in the rest of Tamriel.

So I went to join the empire in the war, and how do they treat me? Like trash. I have to "prove myself". I have to clear a fort of bandits before they will enlist me. The captain even sneers that either I come back alive and I'm in or I don't and I wouldn't have been any use to them anyway.

What the fuck? The empire should be worshipping at my feet. Not only that, the war should just fucking end immediately when I join a side. There should be a parade in my honor celebrating the fact that I even give a shit about mortal affairs any more.

Fucking bethesda.
 

crufty

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Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
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Glassworks
Oppty...there should be a bandit faction and the ability to unite all the bandits, since they have wisely taken up residence at all the strategically important forts.

Wish there was a chance to parlay with bandits.
 

kris

Arcane
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Messages
8,852
Location
Lulea, Sweden
baronjohn said:
The C&C in Skyrim is terrible.

Everyone clearly knows that I am the dragonborn, slayer of Alduin, arch-mage of Winterhold, listener of the dark brotherhood, master conjurer and avatar of a dozen demigods. I have more artifacts laying around my mansion than there are in the rest of Tamriel.

So I went to join the empire in the war, and how do they treat me? Like trash. I have to "prove myself". I have to clear a fort of bandits before they will enlist me. The captain even sneers that either I come back alive and I'm in or I don't and I wouldn't have been any use to them anyway.

What the fuck? The empire should be worshipping at my feet. Not only that, the war should just fucking end immediately when I join a side. There should be a parade in my honor celebrating the fact that I even give a shit about mortal affairs any more.

Fucking bethesda.

I wrote about this long ago or maybe 20 pages ago. Most importantly, you are the thane to like every jarl including the important Whiterun. Game doesn't react to who you are, more than guards telling you "I am watching you sneak-thief"
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
In Morrowind people actually treated you differently once you became Nerevarine. In Skyrim, nothing.

I just wish there was a quest that activated once you kill Alduin and unite Skyrim under the Empire or under the Stormcloaks. Call it 'The Moot'. You have to go around to every Jarl and convince them to meet up and choose a new High King of Skyrim. If you sided with the Imperials then you need General Tullius' approval. If Stormcloaks, then you basically go to Ulfric and tell him he needs to throw his hat into the ring. Once the quest is done a new High King is crowned in either Solitude or Windhelm and people stop talking about the fucking civil war all the time.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Matt7895 said:
In Morrowind people actually treated you differently once you became Nerevarine. In Skyrim, nothing.

I just wish there was a quest that activated once you kill Alduin and unite Skyrim under the Empire or under the Stormcloaks. Call it 'The Moot'. You have to go around to every Jarl and convince them to meet up and choose a new High King of Skyrim. If you sided with the Imperials then you need General Tullius' approval. If Stormcloaks, then you basically go to Ulfric and tell him he needs to throw his hat into the ring. Once the quest is done a new High King is crowned in either Solitude or Windhelm and people stop talking about the fucking civil war all the time.

Worry not, Dragonborn.
It'll be available for $5.99 on Xmas Eve as DLC. :smug:
 

shiggidyshwa

Novice
Joined
Nov 26, 2011
Messages
72
Someone hit the nail on the head. The game (mostly) doesn't react to you at all. If I slay Alduin before attempting the civil war, dialogue should reflect that. If I choose empire, Ulfric should be heavily conflicted about his allegiances, seeing as he's a true blue Nord with the venerating the Dragonborn and all that.

Personally, I think any sane individual who plays video games would have realized that this made sense, but there are limits to what even AAA titles can do. I read somewhere that there are over 100 voice actors? Not to mention the financial strain of hiring that many people to voice so many NPCs, there are the logistical issues to contend with (schedules, mixing, etc.). If it were simply a matter of modifying the writing or the quests, wouldn't seem like such a challenge. I would have preferred significantly less actor variety in exchange for higher quality and true 'radiant' gameplay.

Something for modders to think about, I guess.
 

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