Skyrim - Bethesda, you should be very, very proud.

[Nael]

Apart from that... hasnt even Morowind been proclaimed a dumbed down game compared to daggerfall?

I'm sure someone has tried to make that point just based upon the fact that Morrowind is newer, but no... A better term would be that Morrowind was more refined. Daggerfall was a giant, bloated, buggy mutant of a game. It was still a lot of fun for those of us that like an almost infinite amount of replayability, much like a 3D roguelike but it had none of the nuance that Morrowind possessed. About the only "dumbed down" aspect perhaps was that Daggerfall had a number of different possible endings (six or seven IIRC) whereas Morrowind only had one possible outcome at the end.

 

[villain of the story]

I don't know what the hell you are going on about with swinging twice as much and whatnot. You made a mistake. I corrected it.

Ok, I'll bite - how is wielding a weapon in each hand not dual wielding?

Calling there is "dual wielding" in Daggerfall is like saying there is quadruple wielding in Diablo 2 because you can "equip" the character with two different sets of items and quickly toggle between the two. It's nothing more than a convenient way to quickly switch between two weapons in Daggerfall. Perhaps they had planned for something more but equipping two weapons bring no bonuses or make no changes. You attack with only one at any given time.

The difference is that you hold both weapons in your hands in Daggerfall - in other words you're dual wielding. That's the definition. Not swinging twice as much. Having two readied weapons, one in each hand.

Wielding two weapons.
Not dual swinging.
Dual wielding.

Nigga please... When anybody says dual wielding, everyone will automatically assume it means going Maximus on somebody's ass. Otherwise, yes, Diablo has quadruple wielding.

Why stop there, I mean WTF is with mouse? Do consoles come with a mouse? No. And look, they have been dominating the games industry. Fuck the mouse, it's time we dropped such an antique device that came out due to the technical limitations back in the day.

Yep. That's totally what I said.

Sarcasm says hello.

 

[flushfire]

So, either it's a bug (unlikely), or they assume that you produce a couple of items for your personal use and not more, in which case it might work. But that's obviously not what you and others are after.

AFAIK There's no other way to level smithing other than working the forge (or training), so just making and enhancing a set for personal use won't really work. I believe it was designed to be leveled that way - make multiples of the same items just like some MMOs, but the Iron Dagger/Leather Bracer is an oversight. They probably didn't think there'd be so much mats/gold available to the player early in the game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Skill bonuses as perks.

Many DnD feats do it (and do it better).

Example by chance?

I looked at feats as weak and not skill based.

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing here (since you're calling feats weak and not skill-based) but this is what I meant:

spell penetration - +2 bonus on caster's checks to overcome spell resistance
spell focus - +1 to difficulty against saving throws against selected school
two weapon defense - +1 to AC, +2 if fighting defensively
two weapon fighting - reduces penalties by 2 and 6
weapon focus + 1 to hit
rapid shot - extra attack per round
improved critical (for each selected weapon type) - double the threat range
persuasive - +2 to bluff and intimidate
etc

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thing is that alchemy really seems to be working differently.
I get next to no xp from brewing a simple health potion, but quite a lot from others (either because I have not brewed them so often yet or because they require rare ingredients?). Also it takes ages to raise by just producing common potions.
Which makes me wonder, why did they manage to "balance" alchemy in a way that would probably satisfy you (does it?), but not smithing?

It does. I made a number of health potions and my skill progression is "normal".

So, either it's a bug (unlikely), or
they assume that you produce a couple of items for your personal use and not more, in which case it might work. But that's obviously not what you and others are after.

Or they did a poor job balancing and testing the game. There is no logical explanation why you get a skill point for every dagger and every soul trap (at low level) and not for every potion or alteration spell.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I really dont give a fuck. Go talk to someone whose actual argument is " that sure looks pretty".

Go nuts.

Apart from that... hasnt even Morowind been proclaimed a dumbed down game compared to daggerfall? You seriously expected that Skyrim might have any of that kind of complexity?

I expected nothing at all. My point is that Skyrim should offer something more than pretty landscapes. Obviously, they wanted to move away from the Daggerfall/Morrowind design, but they haven't replaced it with anything. That's the problem.

cool. now you have other reasons. which dont work for you.

Cool.

I understand that it's a different game and I don't expect a BG2-like adventure from every one of 350+ Skyrim's locations and I'm aware that Daggerfall is the undisputed king when it comes to more of the same. However, DF had strong aspects that Bethesda threw away and didn't replace with anything. If they wanted to create an exciting adventure game, they fell short.

They fell short of making a new Daggerfall, or it only even better. mkay.

Daggerfall = procedurally-generated (i.e. more of the same) 3D roguelike built around a complex character system and a good item system to drive exploration.

Skyrim = more of the same, but really pretty

See the difference?

Morowind is not of the same quality, let alone superior. The fucking thing didnt even have dialogue.
It did some things better, did others much worse.

Like any other game. However, overall , it was a better game.

As for dialogues, I'm not sure that Skyrim has them either. NPC telling you stuff and dialogues are two different things.

 

[Data4]

I haven't played around with blacksmithing beyond my initial "poking around" stage in Riverwood. I figured there was plenty of opportunity to grab better weapons as loot and quest rewards, since when I think of crafting, I think in terms of MMOs where crafted items are an income stream.

So, based on what I'm reading here, crafting increases levels per instance of crafting rather than what you're crafting? The basic iron dagger will get you to level cap? If that's the case, even MMOs such as WoW do that better. Linen Cloth eventually gives no points, for example.

 

[Gord]

Well, there's a patch supposed to come out this week.
If the Iron Dagger thing is an oversight chances are good that they are going to fix it.
If it's by design, maybe the ragers that have gone batshit insane over it have been screeming loud enough that they will fix it for them, too. Otherwise there are mods.

 

[crufty]

I have yet to complete the quest lines I'd like to but...

Spoiler

Did any one else catch how solitude hates ol one eye and winter helm or whatever loves the guy? And the queen of skyrim, despite being a Leige for the Imperium, is a worshipper of talos?

Somehow I think that nothing will be made of these nuances. This is the kind of thing I'd wish there would be a bit more going on, and who knows, maybe there will be.

Spoiler

I accidentally did a shout in the thieves guild hq and now a note is encouraging me to stop questing for the guild and ask me to checkout another dungeon.

Anyway I too agree that the item aspect of skyrim needs work. Somehow the special weapons don't seem special, though I did get a nice helmet from a jarl that was appropriate to my armor and weapon choice. I think part of it may be magic items don't have different models, at times.

re feats, my understanding is that dnd 4.0 doesn't have percentile skills. By weak I was referring to them as a a weak game design mechanic.

Right now, I wish the thieves guild quests were tougher. It's like I show up, smash and grab a few things, and now I'm on the mgmt fast track. Why isnt anyone jealous? Why isn't vex trying to sink me with false missions or back stab me by assigning me a job that she then tips off the authorities to?

Overall the missions themselves are enjoyable. I guess I can Elarp and grind some random radiant thieves missions between each master mission.

I think playing with the quest compass OFF is a key to enjoying the dungeons.

 

[Luzur]

guize GUIZE

just wait for DaggerXL and all your problems will be solved.

 

[Black Cat]

So doing those generic kill bandit leader in this cave an exploit?

If the the bandits respawn in the very same place every time I re-enter the cave while still giving random loot and experience, what do you think?

But that doesn't happen on Skyrim, so I don't see the point of you asking. Banal and mundane quests have been a staple of role playing games since time immemorial. Skyrim does not do those like an MMO, however.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Two years ago Vault Dweller and others were arguing DA was good for what it is with skyway.

Now the retarded fanboys, conformists, quislings and LARPers are trying too hard to argue Skyrim is a good game with Vault Dweller.

RPG Codex should be renamed to ESFourChan.

I'm none of the things you named, yet I think Dragon Age and Skyrim are both good (aside from DA having dull combat). Bethesda does deserve credit for Skyrim.

 

[villain of the story]

Skyrim > Alpha Popamole

 

[crufty]

Morrowind is inarguably "dumbed down" compared to CopypastaFall, but the point is usually being made in the context of the series as a whole - i.e. that many of the design choices people complained about in Oblivion actually started with Morrowind. It's not considered in and of itself.

I consider mw

Full of

Skyrim is over the of mw

Oh the was strong...what was good about mw? Compared to Daggerfall...nothing!

NOTHING.


Ok I jest a bit, I'm sure some things were better. Mw was a pretty big change in direction though.

 

[Aparuit]

I really have to say that the game is awfully pretty.

If they only had something for me to do in it, except procedurally relinquish my HOPE that the I could interact with the next NPC, make an emotional decision, or not find a spider/draughar(?)/bandit in a dungeon

then maybe I would play it more.

I really like the snow though. And that is a huge thing, games that are aesthetically pleasing, and ALLOW you to enjoy it (unlike, say Modern Warfare), are rare.

Why the fuck did they make EVERY character a bland piece of shit is beyond me. Why do the meatless ribs of retard devs poke out when i try to bite into an appetizing piece of RPG/fantasy goodness?

 

[Majestic47]

That is the key to understanding Bethesda Softwork. They did try a heavier narrated TES branch - the TES Adventures starring the first fully voiced Redguard, YES, the SAME Redguard you've heard from Oblivion till Skyrim. But it didn't sell.

Oh, the intro is nothing short of epic. And produced by Todd Howard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYltef5VTyQ

 

[flushfire]

I'm just curious about these dungeons that are said to be:
flushfire -
"3 ruined towers that are exactly the same, with same enemies (bandits) just different positions. 4 Caves/mines that look almost the same, again, with bandits.

Nilheim:

I missed a shot of the chest at the top, but its there. The other one is from an unmarked location when going to Bleak Falls Barrow from Riverwood:

I kinda can't remember/find the other one, may be unmarked as well. I'll update when I come across another one if wanted. As for the caves, yes, I exaggerated. Caves are caves, they're supposed to look similar. It's just that all of the caves I've seen around Whiterun, all had Bandits inside with maybe 1 chief, Bear/Ceiling rock traps around the entrance and no valuable item of note. After getting the 2nd ransom note for bandits in a cave, I think it's reasonable to say that it gets repetitive. I'm not trying to be over critical here and honestly it's not a big deal for me, and I do appreciate the some of the little details. Heck, DA2 was much worse and I played it to completion. I just don't agree that anyone claiming the game gets repetitive says so without basis and is a moron. Saying that every location is new or is interesting to explore is just as exaggerated.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

It's actually kind of a pity. Skyrim is almost good. If they just made the character system a bit more complex, the dungeons a bit better, the world a bit more interesting, the combat system better developed, it would've been pretty decent. But as it stands, for me at least, the world is cool, but not as cool as in Morrowind, and not cool enough to make exploration worthwhile just for the sake of seeing new stuff. The core gameplay isn't engaging enough for me, and the prospect of my character becoming more powerful isn't that exciting. As it stands, I play for like 30 minutes every two days or so, just to walk around and look at the pretty mountains.

A pity, honestly. But, on the other hand, a lot of these are fixable through mods, so it may become quite good in a year or so.

 

[malko_sundervere]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjvA4aZS ... ture=g-all

 

[Marsal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjvA4aZS7rs&feature=g-all

 

[flushfire]

But that doesn't happen on Skyrim, so I don't see the point of you asking. Banal and mundane quests have been a staple of role playing games since time immemorial. Skyrim does not do those like an MMO, however.

IMO it does happen. Bounty quests aren't just banal or mundane, they are also repeatable. Locations and monsters are randomized, but still repeatable. Some even use the same quest title and giver, just different descriptions. I'd say it fits your description of MMO gameplay in a single-player game. I doubt anyone would call repeatedly doing the quests an exploit. My point being, MMO-style mechanic is not always what one would consider an exploit in a single-player game, sometimes it's just the way its intended to be.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjvA4aZS7rs&feature=g-all

Best Skyrim review I've seen.

 

[Silellak]

Exploration is a bit of a mixed bag due to most loot you find being randomized (most, not all, there is quite a lot of unique or handplaced stuff, too, the amount is just a bit small compared to randomized stuff).
E.g. I had found a forworn camp connected with some other quest and the "boss" had a unique sword and a book nearby. Upon inspection, the book lead to another quest set in a nearby small cave.
In the cave I faced a named boss-level undead (relatively strong, my Dremora didn't stand a chance) that wielded a seemingly non-random enchanted two-hander. The two hander was uninteresting, but the unique sword I had found earlier and which was the "key" to enter the tomb had transformed to a rather nice (if a bit low-level) anti-undead sword.

Just to add a bit more to this:

1. The book you found, "The Legend of Red Eagle", will actually trigger a side quest that leads you to the Forsworn camp in the first place.

2. The small nearby cave has the body of a dead adventurer clutching a copy of "The Legend of Red Eagle".

Are these mind-blowing innovations in the RPG genre? No - but they are the sort of small world-enhancing details that make exploration worthwhile to me. In fact, it's this sort of attention to detail that made the worlds of the later Ultima games so much fun for me to explore as well.

 

[halflingbarbarian]

Two years ago Vault Dweller and others were arguing DA was good for what it is with skyway.

Now the retarded fanboys, conformists, quislings and LARPers are trying too hard to argue Skyrim is a good game with Vault Dweller.

RPG Codex should be renamed to ESFourChan.

These arguments usually originate from the fact that many of those bashing Skyrim are:

1) Bashing it for the wrong reasons. (Outright lies)

2) Generalising/Stereotyping because of their own narrow experience. AKA: I got one shotted by a bandit. Level-scaling is whack. Or; This dungeon feels the same as one I went to before, nevermind the fact that they are both Imperial forts. All dungeons in Skyrim are similar and I have no reason left to explore.

3) Throwing a lot of criticism about specific aspects of the game around without context, or plausible alternative. Skyrim has many dungeons, I expect all of them to be absolutely different; Daggerfall and Morrowind didn't manage to do that, but I expect it all the same regardless of the practicability of it. Skyrim has no gameplay, I can use a certain method of approaching all encounters in a system of primitive AI and prevail, it wasn't fun and never will be.

Nobody is saying that Skyrim is perfect, but theoretical talk based largely on previous impressions of the company (Bethesda) and expectations originating and built on what the game doesn't have as an argument against the game is quite futile, as a whole.

Valid discussions and hatred of the crafting system, for example, has yielded great insight into why it is easily broken, and why such a system cannot be thrown into a game without thought of balance. That is what optimistically should be happening on a forum that is filled thinking people, not lol skyway is baaad cos it has X but Y is better, or 1/X is baaad so X is totally retarded. And when you ask for specific instances supporting viewpoints people backpedal and refine their opinions so it doesn't look like the extreme, irrational claims they made earlier; which is even more damaging, because their opinions become generalised with a failsafe retreat, which brings nothing to the table other than vague negative vibes.

 

[halflingbarbarian]

I'm just curious about these dungeons that are said to be:
flushfire -
"3 ruined towers that are exactly the same, with same enemies (bandits) just different positions. 4 Caves/mines that look almost the same, again, with bandits.

Nilheim:

I missed a shot of the chest at the top, but its there. The other one is from an unmarked location when going to Bleak Falls Barrow from Riverwood:

I kinda can't remember/find the other one, may be unmarked as well. I'll update when I come across another one if wanted. As for the caves, yes, I exaggerated. Caves are caves, they're supposed to look similar. It's just that all of the caves I've seen around Whiterun, all had Bandits inside with maybe 1 chief, Bear/Ceiling rock traps around the entrance and no valuable item of note. After getting the 2nd ransom note for bandits in a cave, I think it's reasonable to say that it gets repetitive. I'm not trying to be over critical here and honestly it's not a big deal for me, and I do appreciate the some of the little details. Heck, DA2 was much worse and I played it to completion. I just don't agree that anyone claiming the game gets repetitive says so without basis and is a moron. Saying that every location is new or is interesting to explore is just as exaggerated.

That's not a dungeon btw, it's an overland structure that has very solid reasons for looking exactly the same - they are watchtowers. And also, it's picking on a very very miniscule example to generalise the entire scope of dungeons in Skyrim (and the example aren't even dungeons). In case you want to raise the point that not all dungeons must be in a zone by itself and what the definition of dungeons really is: that's not the point. The point is that your claim that dungeons all look and play the same is provably false (if you are not satisfied with this claim I can write another post with screenshots showing why) on a much more objective premise than saying every (don't be literal, please) location is new and interesting, which is subjective but also provably valid.