Skill Increases

[Gruu]

Been lurking on the forum for a couple of months now and *really* like what I see, VD and others. I have a question about the skill-based progression. I recall reading that there are no levels and instead characters gain skill points for completing quests. Are they generic skill points that can be applied anywhere, or will there be a system like Quest for Glory's / *shudder* Elder Scrolls's where only the skills you used to complete the quest will increase or those skills can be increased more quickly?

Thanks!

 

[Vault Dweller]

You get generic skill points and use them anywhere you want without restrictions. The amount of skill points depends on how you solved a quest (there are no right or wrong ways, but there are different levels of efforts and participation) and could be modified by high Intelligence (faster learning).

 

[Balor]

Can there be a Arcanum/M&M-like system of 'extra traininig' that you must only learn from human teachers? (Like 'expert/master' states, etc).

 

[Vault Dweller]

There are traits & ranks that can be given, earned, or learned from someone.
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/1.jpg (to the right)

For example, joining the Imperial Guards will get you Army Training (5% bonus to Sword, Spear, Crossbow, Block), etc. You get Lifetaker rep when you kill (finish defeated opponents off) more than 10 people. Lifetaker gives you a Critical Strike bonus and a reaction modifier. And so on.

 

[One Wolf]

VD, can you give us a breakdown of how the reputation modifiers work? i.e. how does "word of honor" compare to "loyalty"?

and on the screen shot you posted above, shall i assume the rank 6 (on stats) is neutral, and your character is given 10 stat points to distribute without lowering other ranks below 6?

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, can you give us a breakdown of how the reputation modifiers work? i.e. how does "word of honor" compare to "loyalty"?

Loyalty measures how loyal you are to a faction. Word of Honor measures how well you keep your word (promises).

Gameplay-wise it means something like: Your odds of getting something in return for a promise could be improved by persuasion, etiquette (in some cases), or word of honor. The latter is an alternative to skills and your reward for certain gameplay style. Keeping your word could be harder than it sounds though. You'll have to make some hard choices, but people would be able to rely on your word and value it.

...shall i assume the rank 6 (on stats) is neutral, and your character is given 10 stat points to distribute without lowering other ranks below 6?

4 is the lowest. We assume that people with INT < 4 are too stupid to live (literally), so you can't drop your INT or CHA to nothing to bump up your STR.

 

[Jora]

For your next game you need to make reputations that are as cool as these:

http://theblackhound.googlepages.com/tbh_feats.png

 

[aweigh]

You get generic skill points and use them anywhere you want without restrictions. The amount of skill points depends on how you solved a quest (there are no right or wrong ways, but there are different levels of efforts and participation) and could be modified by high Intelligence (faster learning).

Hmm, I don't know if this word applies, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that kind of game design choice based on a subjective viewpoint? Sometimes "more effort" isn't the most effective choice, and some could argue that the less energy spent to get the same goal accomplished should be lauded instead of penalized. It all depends on how you're going to value what you consider effort and participation. Killing somebody yourself or putting out a hit usually entails about the same level of legal participation in the real world, depending on the amount of evidence presen.

Perhaps you meant thoroughness instead of effort and elegance instead of participation? Let's say you're asked to steal something. Two people try to do it, but one uses arson as a decoy to get into the house, while the other steals the object during the night without disturbing anyone. Both got the job done, but I would reward the cat-burgler a bit more than the pyromaniac because of his methodology and elegance.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Here is a simple example:

You are asked to kill two spies. You can either kill them or let them go. If you kill them, you may look for their reports (takes a skill to find them). If you let them go, you can take them to safety (you'll have to get through another assassin). Both branches give you the same XPs, but you can do more and you can do less. Your choice.

I loved this design in Prelude. From a walkthrough:
...
Background/Summary
A young woman named Vauni has been disgraced by her pregnancy. She was thrown out by her parents and is working as a barmaid and living in the backroom of Olvar's Inn. Vauni's father Salmor is offering a reward to whoever can discover the identity of the father. The father of the child is Antius, a (mostly) retired Guardian. Vauni and Antius have long had a secret love affair, and were planning on marrying until Vauni became pregnant. Because Antius was married previously (his wife died decades ago) and was unable to have children, he is convinced that the child is not his. After he saw Vauni sneaking out late at night to see Rasmeri, the local woodcutter, he became convinced that Rasmeri is the father of the child.

In actuality, Vauni was sneaking into the woodcutter's house to place an order for a carved ring to give to Antius as a marriage gift. In his heart Antius is still very much in love with Vauni, be he feels hurt and betrayed and hence will not so much as speak with her anymore. Vauni has no inkling of Antius's suspicions. She is still desperately in love with Antius, and refuses to reveal his identity to her father.

Player's Introduction
Speak with Vauni.

Objectives
Figure out who the father of Vauni's child is and resolve the conflict

Completing Objectives
1) Vauni can be found in Olvar's Inn. There are 2 ways to find out who is the father of her child.

1.1) If the party has someone with tinker skill of around 10 they will be able to pick the chest in Vauni's room (in the back of Olvar's Inn). On the letter it will say that Antius is the father +1SP Vauni's Chest

1.2) Alternatively, if the party can make idle conversation with the people of Kellen to learn that Vauni sneaks out late at night to the west. To the west of town is a tree with Antius + Vauni carved into the bark +1SP

2) Speak with Antius to learn that he is upset because he saw Vauni sneaking to Rasmeri's Shop. There are 2 ways to complete the quest from this point.

2.1) Blackmailing and double-crossing

2.1.1) Blackmail Antius into giving the party 100 drachs +1SP

2.1.2) Go to Salmor and double-cross Antius for the 250 drach reward. Salmor will confront and kill Antius +1SP

2.2) Wedding

2.2.1) Speak with Vauni to learn that she was in Rasmeri's shop in order to have a ring made for Antius.

2.2.2) Speak with Rasmeri and he'll tell the party that he gave it to his apprentice Eider to deliver.

2.2.2.1) Speak with Eider and he will tell the party that he dropped it by the Ancient Stones southeast of town. The ring can be found by the Ancient Stones +1SP Ancient Stones

2.2.2.1) Speak with Eider and he will tell the party that he dropped it by the Ancient Stones southeast of town. The ring can be found by the Ancient Stones +1SP

2.2.3)) Bring the ring to Antius and Vauni will marry. After they marry Antius will give the party Antius's Longsword, an Ironwood Kite Shield and 300 drachs +4SP

 

[Joff1981]

2.2.3)) Bring the ring to Antius and Vauni will marry. After they marry Antius will give the party Antius's Longsword, an Ironwood Kite Shield and 300 drachs +4SP

Considering that all other actions only give 1 SP, this seems a little much. I hope that you would refrain from going quite so far in rewarding the completing of quests in a certain way. There really shouldn't be an ideal way of completing any quest as this diminishes the value of the other choices, in this example the next best solution causes you to gain 50 drachs in comparison but lose out on a sword and shield (probably worth more than 50 drachs) and 3 SP. The other solutions look even worse although I assume you get 250 drachs however you discover the name of the father.

Rewarding "correct" solutions in this way is particularly irritating when it is always the same type of resolutions being rewarded, in most cases the "good" resolutions to quests typically get the best rewards even when you're helping some impoverished beggar who says he has nothing it will normally turn out he has a super powerful artifact or a map to a priceless treasure or some such nonsense. Players tend to want the best for their characters and if you are rewarding certain types of play more than others then some people will find it difficult to stay in the less rewarding role and the game will lose some of it's replayability for them.

 

[Claw]

I have to agree with Joff here, being rewarded for taking the goodie-two-shoes route is trite and annoying.
In the Prelude example you posted, the player is effectively rewarded for playing "nice" and punished for being greedy.
Now once players figure this out, actually greedy players will play "nice" just because they know that this route leads to the bigger reward. Gay.

 

[Elhoim]

If you kill them, you may look for their reports (takes a skill to find them)

Really? I think a big popup telling that you found them and what you should do next would be better!

 

[galsiah]

While I see the point, you can't simply consider the reward of the quest as the only balance factor. You also need to consider the investment in the quest, and any broader implications of the resolution.

For example:
Extra challenges required to complete the quest (e.g. combats...).
Character resources used to complete challenges (gold, equipment, time...).
Player resources used (time, effort...).
Character investment required (skill requirements...).
Character sacrifices required (prerequisits of solution + implications of solution).


In fact, I think it'd help not to look at rewards in terms of individual quests, but rather in terms of character action and investment. Reward for player and player character investment should be balanced (as far as possible); reward for multiple solutions of individual quests doesn't necessarily need to be.

If the player thinks that the total skill points available are likely to be limited, then there's an incentive to go for the greatest skill point reward for each quest. That's still only a really large factor if the results of the quest are otherwise unimportant (e.g. for isolated side-quests).

If the player knows that skill points are abundant (or unlimited), then rewards for multiple solutions of even isolated quests needn't be balanced at all. All that's necessary in that case is for the reward to be proportional to the player investment in the solution.


In the Prelude example, I think it makes sense that the wedding solution gets more SP: it takes longer, requires leaving the safety of the town once more....

I agree that 4 SP would be too much if points were very limited: the PC loses very little by going for the wedding solution. (only slightly more exposure to danger when finding the ring).
However, the wedding solution does take quite a bit longer for the player. Since skill points in Prelude are abundant, it's quite reasonable for the player to get higher reward for more time investment.
The only slight issue I see is that the player may not be aware that skill points are plentiful at this point in the game.

It's not too reasonable to discuss material rewards in only these terms, since such rewards need to make game-world sense.

 

[Necro]

i was gonna comment on xp, but it seems like you covered that pretty much. But i feel a dimplomatic solution should net u slightly more xp (or other reward) than a violent solution as through a violent solution you end up getting the items and the like which you wouldn't through a diplomatic one.

 

[Jasede]

yeah word dude u rly should lisen to necro vd he gud advice we rly need no consequenc if u take diplom. aproach they shud both give u same XP and loot

 

[Major_Blackhart]

All I wanna know is this: Can you earn the title Berserker, or perhaps something similar to it?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Surprisingly, yes.

First, you can't learn it on your own - you need someone to teach you that. Second, it requires some knowledge of alchemy and fly-agaric (not a made up name) mushrooms. You consume the treated mushrooms in the viking fashion, which sends you into a battle frenzy. The effects are damage bonus, penalty to hit (your attacks are stronger but lack precision), tier 3 (large) weapons' attack speed drops from 6 to 5 for 4 turns, immunity to critical hits (you don't pay attention to wounds), only hostile dialogue options (no diplomacy or reason).

So, if you use the mushrooms more than 3 times, you get the title and a bonus to intimidation attempts.

 

[Tiavals]

Personally I think you should be penalized for good solutions. Normally doing the "right thing" gives you the most reward, which is plain ludicrous. You should get the least reward from it, or possibly even lose something if you do the "right thing", because it IS the right thing.

You don't do good things because you get some reward, but because it's the right thing to do, which is why so few people do it, since it's often detrimental to yourself. The only satisfaction you should get is that you know you did the right thing, plus maybe a "Do-gooder" reputation that affects some people(both positive and negative), and of course the most important thing, you get to see in the end-game-synopsis how you made the lives of some people a lot better.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Personally I think you should be penalized for good solutions. Normally doing the "right thing" gives you the most reward, which is plain ludicrous. You should get the least reward from it, or possibly even lose something if you do the "right thing", because it IS the right thing.

Yes.

I was just making this argument just the other day. In real life, crime does pay. It's only in Bioware's happy-happy moralizing fucking mindset that this isn't so. It makes me sick.

 

[kingcomrade]

So, if you use the mushrooms more than 3 times, you get the title and a bonus to intimidation attempts.

Do you get the title even if you use the mushroom three times in a corner somewhere and just sleep it off each time? Or do you have to use it in battle?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes. Any 3 times will do.

 

[Fez]

It's worth keeping an eye out for the cheesy powergaming things like that.

 

[Lumpy]

Personally I think you should be penalized for good solutions. Normally doing the "right thing" gives you the most reward, which is plain ludicrous. You should get the least reward from it, or possibly even lose something if you do the "right thing", because it IS the right thing.

You don't do good things because you get some reward, but because it's the right thing to do, which is why so few people do it, since it's often detrimental to yourself. The only satisfaction you should get is that you know you did the right thing, plus maybe a "Do-gooder" reputation that affects some people(both positive and negative), and of course the most important thing, you get to see in the end-game-synopsis how you made the lives of some people a lot better.

True. Even the vilest murderer will help the good guys if their reward is bigger than that of the bad guys. Even if it is slightly less, because good guys are much less likely to doublecross you.
Unless helping the bad guys involves something you like doing, such as tastefully raping a child - in which case there should be some other rewards than loot and xp.
I hate the mindset that an evil guy is someone who is good to other evil guys and bad to good guys. An evil guy should be good only to himself.

 

[Section8]

Personally I think you should be penalized for good solutions. Normally doing the "right thing" gives you the most reward, which is plain ludicrous. You should get the least reward from it, or possibly even lose something if you do the "right thing", because it IS the right thing.

Yes.

I was just making this argument just the other day. In real life, crime does pay. It's only in Bioware's happy-happy moralizing fucking mindset that this isn't so. It makes me sick.

Interesting theory, but it doesn't necessarily make for an interesting choice if you still have one option that is clearly better. At the very least, you have to start tracking karma, reputation and such, so there's a decision to be made between material gain vs social standing or whatever your gameworld deigns as good and evil. And you really ought to be doing a lot more with tracking of social variables than the usual Bioware shit.

 

[Jora]

If the good path requires as much effort as the bad one, it should offer an equal amount of experience. Other rewards could vary: the bad way could lead to easy money and a good reputation among criminals, while those who do the right thing might notice that their choice pays off in the long run, for instance.