Shields

[Gruu]

I'm curious how shields are going to work in the game. From what I've remember from earlier posts, they work with Parry and add DR, which is cool, but it sounds like there are many weapons that "break" them for a combat.

"Our shields are falling!"
"Raise them!"
"I can't!!!"

Could you shed some light on how effective a shield-based approach will actually be?

 

[Azael]

Also, the Romans used the shields in a pretty offensive way to pin and/or smash their enemies while they stabbed them with the gladius. Will there be offensive uses for the shield as well? Personally, I'd love to go Titus Pullo on adowned foe and take his head off with my scutum, but I guess that's not feasible.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There are 4 shield types: small, medium (oval), large, tower. Shields:

1) add points to your Block skill (10-40 points). Thus, shields won't make a novice (in blocking) invulnerable, but will greatly aid an experienced fighter.

2) reduce critical hits (harder to hit a weak body/armor area)

3) make harder to dodge (you rely almost exclusively on blocking attacks, not dodging them)

4) make harder to sneak (needs no explanation)

5) give you a penalty to hit (you can't hit as accurately when you are hiding behind a tower shield)

The bigger the shield, the larger are the bonuses/penalties. Crafting increases the bonuses and reduces the penalties.

Shields do *not* add DR. We tried that, but it didn't work (made some builds almost invulnerable). So, you either block attacks completely or take them like a man.

You can push your enemies with your shield. A successful attack knocks them down.

PS. Titus Pullo is awesome. I loved that fight in the end of season 1. THIRTEEEEEEN!!!!!

 

[Azael]

That reminds me, will there be any gladiatorial combat in the game? Don't care if it's as something the player can actively participate in or just as a betting opportunity.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes. When in Rome...

 

[Azael]

Nice...

So, shields either stop blows or they don't, there's no inbetween? How would you say the balance is regarding a light fighter with the equivalent of a buckler and tank with a scutum assuming similar levels of skill in respective areas, are they about as hard too hit with a melee weapon? A smaller shield should also be more useful as an offensive weapon.

 

[suibhne]

1) add points to your Block skill (10-40 points). Thus, shields won't make a novice (in blocking) invulnerable, but will greatly aid an experienced fighter.

Do better shields require some skill to use, or does a higher Block skill receive greater benefit from shields? Otherwise the effect would be the opposite of what you describe: a tower shield might add 50% to a novice's Block skill but only 10% to a master's.

 

[Balor]

Did you factor fatigue (and/or, perhaps, min str) to the shield system?
Even medium shields are damn HEAVY and extrememly tiring - I can say that from my own experience.
Tower shields, betcha, can only be effectively used by highly trained persons.
This is a rather important factor... and balances out thing rather nicely too - Hi-agi chars dodge, hi-str characters - block.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, shields either stop blows or they don't, there's no inbetween?

Yep. Anything else created more problems than it fixed.

How would you say the balance is regarding a light fighter with the equivalent of a buckler and tank with a scutum assuming similar levels of skill in respective areas, are they about as hard too hit with a melee weapon?

Light fighter relies on dodging, which makes shields a medium/heavy fighter's accessory. Like I said, you either dodge or block attacks, so investing into both skills is a waste, which means that if your block skill is low, shields will be useless anyway.

Why use small shields then? Let's say you are a novice fighter, you put 50 points into Swords, and grabbed the biggest shield you found. The shield gives you 40 points to hit penalty because it's motherfucking huge. So, now your offensive capabilities have been reduced to pretty much nothing (5% chance of hitting something - that's the min value). Once you realize the error of your ways, you get a smaller shield that grants you a small protection, but still allows you to hit something.

A smaller shield should also be more useful as an offensive weapon.

I agree, but we didn't have time to implement everything we wanted or everything that makes sense as it requires animations, mechanics, balance, etc.

Do better shields require some skill to use, or does a higher Block skill receive greater benefit from shields?

Nope, see above.

Otherwise the effect would be the opposite of what you describe: a tower shield might add 50% to a novice's Block skill but only 10% to a master's.

Max skill is 300, even with bonuses. Tower shield adds 40 points to Block. So, a novice with 20 points and a tower shield will have 60 points, which will help against a good fighter (100-125), but won't stop a weapon master (200 points and up). Your chance to hit is weapon skill - dodge/block (whichever is the highest). If you have 100 points in Block plus a tower shield, than you have 140 points, so it will take only a skilled master to get through your defenses.

Edit: No fatigue, Balor.

 

[Azael]

To continue along suibhne's line of thought, won't that make tower shields less useful for a character that invests heavily in the Block skill since the bonus to block is probably smaller, relatively speaking, than the penalty to attack?

 

[galsiah]

But the chances are that a fighter will increase his weapon skill as he increases his block skill - the severity of the penalty will effectively be reduced along with the size of the bonus. Presumably a bit of crafting will mean the bonus outweighs the penalty at high values.
If he invests much more in block than in weapon skills, perhaps small shields will be better - but is there much wrong with this? Tower shields are supposed to be an option, not to (eventually) be the best type of shield for all builds.

VD: What's the deal with blocking/dodging ranged attacks? Is it possible to dodge arrows, or does it make sense for a light fighter to bring a shield to block arrows, then drop it when the opponent closes?

 

[Vault Dweller]

To continue along suibhne's line of thought, won't that make tower shields less useful for a character that invests heavily in the Block skill since the bonus to block is probably smaller, relatively speaking, than the penalty to attack?

The bonus and the penalty are the same - 40 points for tower shields. Basically, it's a trade off - you lower your offense, but increase your defense. It won't help a novice - probably will get him killed, but it will help an experienced fighter with good Block and weapon skills. So, if anything tower shields *are* for experienced fighter, even though they are available to all.

VD: What's the deal with blocking/dodging ranged attacks? Is it possible to dodge arrows, or does it make sense for a light fighter to bring a shield to block arrows, then drop it when the opponent closes?

Right. Forgot to mention. You can dodge ranged attacks, but at a large penalty, while shields give you a good bonus against ranged.

 

[Balor]

It won't help a novice - probably will get him killed, but it will help an experienced fighter with good Block and weapon skills.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG!
Buckler shields (shields gripped in a fist) by no means lower your attack capability. If they large enough, however, they do have enourmous STR regs to be used for prolonged periods of time.
Also, shield + sword is by far the most 'accessable' combo. It gives you great edge over shieldless opponents. However, since in RL it's countered by bulkiness of the shield (in term of simply carrying it around) - and I doubt you are going to model that in AoD...
Anyway, just a small note - while your implementation if shields may be balanced, it will suck from the point of realism.
Oh well, you never was a supporter of realism in games.

 

[Balor]

...
On the other hand, if you are referring ONLY to tower shields, it's ok.
Question is...
They have no place in a game that does not incorporate fighting in formation!
Even an expert shield fighter will NEVER carry a tower shield just for personal protection. (I'm talking about 'adventurer' types)
Of course, number one reason that it's simply WAY too bulky to carry around and reason number two - it was specifically designed for army warfare and shield walls.
Yea, it may make you nearly invulnerable to missiles, but otherwise, adventuring with it is nigh impossbile. It's WAY too heavy for that.
Oh well, perhaps a huge attack penalty would be enough of a detriment - but please - make their str reqs HUGE. Much moreso then heavy plate... I fought in rather heavy armor, run and jumped around in it - it was fine.
But fighting even with targe (wood + still rimming, about 5 kgs of weght) leaves you unable to to lift your left hand in five minutes. Yea, it's that bad. And yea, i'm a weakling compared to real medieval warriors, but to does not mean that they were superhuman.

 

[Azael]

It's not about realism. The game is based on a Roman setting and the most recognisable shield from that period is the rectangular scutum so it makes sense to include it. Still, if it came to realistically choosing a shield for singe combat I wouldn't go with a scutum either.

 

[Balor]

Well, like I said, I would not use it either .
I do wish that it my choice would be based on REAL, not IMAGINARY consequences.

 

[galsiah]

The game is based on a Roman setting

No - it's a "fantasy world", "inspired by the fall of the Roman Empire". It's not Rome, and it's not based on Rome. Roman stuff is being used where it fits the feel/culture of the game world. There is no argument to include something simply because it's Roman / recognised as Roman etc.

 

[Lord Chambers]

C'mon guys, Azael clearly wants someone to make a joke about "scutum," he's said it three times in three posts.

 

[Nick]

No - it's a "fantasy world", "inspired by the fall of the Roman Empire". It's not Rome, and it's not based on Rome. Roman stuff is being used where it fits the feel/culture of the game world. There is no argument to include something simply because it's Roman / recognised as Roman etc.

Precisely.

 

[puur prutswerk]

@ lord chambers: Yeah.

It won't help a novice - probably will get him killed, but it will help an experienced fighter with good Block and weapon skills.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG!
Buckler shields (shields gripped in a fist) by no means lower your attack capability. If they large enough, however, they do have enourmous STR regs to be used for prolonged periods of time.
Also, shield + sword is by far the most 'accessable' combo. It gives you great edge over shieldless opponents. However, since in RL it's countered by bulkiness of the shield (in term of simply carrying it around) - and I doubt you are going to model that in AoD...
Anyway, just a small note - while your implementation if shields may be balanced, it will suck from the point of realism.
Oh well, you never was a supporter of realism in games.

In combat practice, i find that I can indeed freely swing my "gladius" while keeping a tight grip on my 'scutum". It is in fact a fairly effective form of combat against non life targets.

In actual battle agianst real life opponents however, I find that keeping ahold of my "scutum" makes it hard ( if not nearly impossible) to actually strike my enemy hard enough to penetrate them somewhere where it hurts.

 

[Balor]

In actual battle agianst real life opponents however, I find that keeping ahold of my "scutum" makes it hard ( if not nearly impossible) to actually strike my enemy hard enough to penetrate them somewhere where it hurts.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Scutum was meant for advancing lines of heavily armored legions.
Shield bash, gladius stab, all the while moving forward - repeat untill enemy is dead or fled.
When it comes to 'freeform' battles adventurer faces, it's not exactly handy. Still great against arrows, though.
...
Oh, just see my post below one you quoted . I was talking about tower (scutum-like) shields in particular.
While smaller shields do not reduce your attack capability, based on my own experience, large shields certainly do... but those were never used for 'adventuring' purposes.

 

[JuJu]

What about combination of shield and 1h crossbow? I bet my loremaster would look cool with that nifty crossbow and a shiny shield, both crafted by himself (he only needs some stylish goggles). Does to hit penalities work the same? Can you reload it while holding shield, if not, then how does putting shield away, reloading and equipping it again work? You probably cant use your shield as pavise - deploy it on the ground and cover behind it while reloading, right?

 

[Vault Dweller]

You can use a shield and a one-handed crossbow. The penalties still apply, of course. Reloading works the same way as in Fallout, so you don't need to put anything away.