Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition

[SCO]

I used the computer. A actual text input box that isn't just something to name your pc, haven't seen one of those in a while.

 

[Roguey]

Obfuscating win buttons doesn't make them any more interesting.

You have to work for it. Wasteland 2 used the win button approach, however you still had to work for it in a few key places. (e.g. coming to a peaceful resolution with Danforth requires killing a bunch of guys so you can get the dog cure).

Working for it doesn't necessarily mean combat, it could just mean investigation (e.g. passing a perception check on the bomb next to Jesse saves you a lot of back and forth later on if you bring up said bomb with her father later on).

 

[V_K]

It's also funny how before mid-2000s the default approach was to have diplomacy success rely on the NPC attitude meter (and in more exciting cases some other meters too) that could be raised or lowered in different ways, and then it suddenly disappeared and it was 'hard' checks everywhere. Arguably the old approach was more gamey and therefore, I'd say, better.

 

[eXalted]

I used the computer. A actual text input box that isn't just something to name your pc, haven't seen one of those in a while.

Do you remember what had to be written in there?

Obfuscating win buttons doesn't make them any more interesting.

And you are right. Instant win is not a good option, but I'm fully aware that as a single person I cannot implement such complex options in each dialogue, so I guess I'll do it in around half of them.

 

[SCO]

I remember because i just did it yesterday:
8008 Shamju Pk. Rd.

It's right there in the quest text (not so cleverly put in a 'mission item' because Harebrained schemes UI is complete shit for text, no matter their dialog verbosity).

You can get a complete list of the topics of the 'snitchnet' and all the other text entries in that dialog node by opening
"./525361cd623661e411004fca.convo.bytes" in the data/convos folder of the mod directory (i just grep'ed it from a console now).
Well maybe not 'complete' because from what i can see the Dragonfall engine serialization format likes to save some strings as hashcodes to earlier saved strings, probably if they refer to the same object internally because of the memory optimization of string interning. Funny enough most times the hashcodes are larger the actual string.

I'm also playing in the dragonfall standalone engine. It's going well so far.

 

[eXalted]

I remember because i just did it yesterday:
8008 Shamju Pk. Rd.

It's right there in the quest text (not so cleverly put in a 'mission item' because Harebrained schemes UI is complete shit for text, no matter their dialog verbosity).

You can get a complete list of the topics of the 'snitchnet' and all the other text entries in that dialog node by opening
"./525361cd623661e411004fca.convo.bytes" in the data/convos folder of the mod directory (i just grep'ed it from a console now).
Well maybe not 'complete' because from what i can see the Dragonfall engine serialization format likes to save some strings as hashcodes to earlier saved strings, probably if they refer to the same object internally because of the memory optimization of string interning. Funny enough most times the hashcodes are larger the actual string.

I'm also playing in the dragonfall standalone engine. It's going well so far.

Just explored it with the editor. It's awesome, you can even forge your ID by entering "Shamju Tower" and hacking it.

If there are no problems with the Dragonfall engine I may consider replaying it.

Oh, and I liked that "mission item" diary. Felt fresh.

 

[Ninjerk]

IIRC the guy that made NH was an aspiring Hollywood writer.

 

[naossano]

While hiding attributes is nice, I think player should get some feedback there is gonna be a test if a risky answer is chosen.

Eg. "[Strength check]Let me in asshole or else" instead of "[Need Strength 3 to pass]Let me in asshole or else".
It is up to player to measure if he feels strong enough to try it, but it cuts down any ambiguity about nature of the check (will this line check my strength? or maybe body.. or maybe even charisma).

IMO, those abominations are just there to allow the devellopers to brag about how much skillcheck they put in their games, while all those checks should be natural and invisible.
It is like watching a movie and having some messages on the bottom that tell you that the camera is panning, that there is a scenery, that this actor is famous, that this character is suspicious, that the climax will happen soon etc... LET ME WATCH THE MOVIE, DON'T BRAG ABOUT IT ! ! !
When you go to the restaurant, you don't want to know each recipe/ingredients/taste/etc.. You just want to eat it yourself.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Excidium II]

I want to make informed decisions. When you're playing a tabletop you ask DM "Hey can I make a STR check? What's the TN?". Same deal here.

 

[Lhynn]

I want to make informed decisions. When you're playing a tabletop you ask DM "Hey can I make a STR check? What's the TN?". Same deal here.

When you want to lift something do you ask your mom if you are strong enough too?
I never tell my players the difficulty till after the check, i only say stuff like "it should be easy", "it can prove difficult" "if you fail it could end up being dangerous for you or the rest", etc.
You get to decide if you are feeling lucky or capable enough to tackle the problem.

 

[Darth Roxor]

When you want to lift something do you ask your mom if you are strong enough too?
I never tell my players the difficulty till after the check, i only say stuff like "it should be easy", "it can prove difficult" "if you fail it could end up being dangerous for you or the rest", etc.
You get to decide if you are feeling lucky or capable enough to tackle the problem.

yes i also love spending my fate points/dice pools in vain or just hoarding them till i die because the gm is a dick

 

[V_K]

When you want to lift something do you ask your mom if you are strong enough too?

When you're trying to lift some weight, first, it's obvious what stat you'll be checking, second, you have a way to assess difficulty.
When you're presented with a dialog option like "Let me in, asshole, or you'll be really sorry for the consequences" it's anyone's guess what kind of a check the designer had in mind.

 

[eXalted]

When you want to lift something do you ask your mom if you are strong enough too?
I never tell my players the difficulty till after the check, i only say stuff like "it should be easy", "it can prove difficult" "if you fail it could end up being dangerous for you or the rest", etc.
You get to decide if you are feeling lucky or capable enough to tackle the problem.

That's exactly how I went when I was DMing in the past. If the players are well informed everything should be okay - "Well, he seems like a very muscular guy, you'll need something like divine intervention if you want to throw him out of that window." seems like a good hint to use a fate point if you want to. I don't like giving meta information in the form of numbers, I'm trying to communicate it through words.

When you're trying to lift some weight, first, it's obvious what stat you'll be checking, second, you have a way to assess difficulty.
When you're presented with a dialog option like "Let me in, asshole, or you'll be really sorry for the consequences" it's anyone's guess what kind of a check the designer had in mind.

Yes, in a computer game, you can't ask the GM to give you hint or describe you the situation in more detail, so a text like [Strength Check] is a nice way to give some more information without revealing everything. Otherwise there is no other way of knowing if you are testing Strength, Body, Close Combat or Melee.

IIRC the guy that made NH was an aspiring Hollywood writer.

That's interesting. Do you have more information?

 

[Lhynn]

When you're trying to lift some weight, first, it's obvious what stat you'll be checking, second, you have a way to assess difficulty.
When you're presented with a dialog option like "Let me in, asshole, or you'll be really sorry for the consequences" it's anyone's guess what kind of a check the designer had in mind.

Then make them more descriptive. If the player doesnt know what the fuck you are asking of him its you who is failing. If you need to tell the player exactly what hes doing with a neon sign, then you are failing x2.

yes i also love spending my fate points/dice pools in vain or just hoarding them till i die because the gm is a dick

Never ran into this problem, if the implications are grave, then players will use those resources to secure a success.

 

[Excidium II]

When you want to lift something do you ask your mom if you are strong enough too?
I never tell my players the difficulty till after the check, i only say stuff like "it should be easy", "it can prove difficult" "if you fail it could end up being dangerous for you or the rest", etc.
You get to decide if you are feeling lucky or capable enough to tackle the problem.

Meh, it's more convenient to tell the TN and have the result rolled and verified by everyone.

Of course that's for stuff that isn't hidden like search or bluff and what not.

 

[Lhynn]

In a game not disclosing check and difficulty leads to much less reloading.
In both games and PnP it also means that players have to stop and think.

 

[Excidium II]

In a game not disclosing check and difficulty leads to much less reloading.

It means much more guesswork too. Specially since stat checks tend to be fixed in CRPGs.

 

[V_K]

Specially since stat checks tend to be fixed in CRPGs.

Which is quite a shitty mechanics in the first place. So if you're really set on rolling with it, better make it as unobnoxious as possible.
But it would be oh sooooo much better to develop actual non-combat mechanics.

 

[Excidium II]

Which is quite a shitty mechanics in the first place. So if you're really set on rolling with it, better make it as unobnoxious as possible.
But it would be oh sooooo much better to develop actual non-combat mechanics.

Yeah. That also results in the target numbers keeping increasing throughout the game, often ilogically. Like it's the same type of lock but at the starter area it's difficulty 15 to pick but in the endgame area it's difficulty 90.

 

[Lhynn]

Yeah. That also results in the target numbers keeping increasing throughout the game, often ilogically. Like it's the same type of lock but at the starter area it's difficulty 15 to pick but in the endgame area it's difficulty 90.

Thats a problem with shit incoherent design tho. It has been adressed in 5e in a way, by keeping the numbers low even at high level so that some DMs dont feel the need to inflate difficulty.

 

[Excidium II]

Thats a problem with shit incoherent design tho. It has been adressed in 5e in a way, by keeping the numbers low even at high level so that some DMs dont feel the need to inflate difficulty.

Yeah, it's not a consequence of fixed skill checks directly but they tend to encourage that type of shit.

Also another problem with CRPGs is that stat checks tend to have binary success/failure outcomes due to limited/lazy design, which is even more annoying if you add dice rolls.

 

[Ninjerk]

eXalted I think when I originally played it I was very impressed with it and started rooting around in his comments or profile or something.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/leeks lists his name as Kyle Francis and it's possible he mentioned wanting to be a writer. "kyle francis writer" yields http://kylestephenfrancis.com/page/2/ as a result. It's the same blog I remember reading right after playing it. I'm sure if you dig around enough you can find whatever link trail I originally followed.

EDIT: Derp. There's a link to his blog right on the profile.

 

[V_K]

Yeah, it's not a consequence of fixed skill checks directly but they tend to encourage that type of shit.

Also another problem with CRPGs is that stat checks tend to have binary success/failure outcomes due to limited/lazy design, which is even more annoying if you add dice rolls.

I know it's kinda bad taste to give praise to Vogel, but I think in Geneforge he was on the right track with living tools and the way traps were disarmed.

 

[Lhynn]

I know it's kinda bad taste to give praise to Vogel

Why? the man used to be good at his job.