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Shadowrun Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut

opium fiend

Augur
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
546
If you read the Shadowlands BBS after that mission, someone mentions that the facility housed a bunch of kids who were in it just for the roof and meals, and that they didn't deserve to die.

Exactly, that BBS thread was what made me feel like a bit of a dick. As I should. I had the same problem with DMS "slave scientist" and Berlin "Psycho Rigger" runs. I just killed 20+ security personell to reach the target and suddenly I'm supposed to feel sorry because the target has feelings/family/whatever? I don't know about PnP, but shadowrunners in this game are sociopathic mercs and that fact should have been reflected on more and better.
 
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Lujo

Augur
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
It's just bad video game writing

The more the years go by, the more I get perplexed by this. You'd think at some point some actually good, pro writers would at least stumble into the videogame industry, and someone would make it easier for them to adjust to the "good writing =/= to a lot of text". It can't be that difficult to find people who can do better than bad video game writing.

However, what I've noticed from personal experience and the experiences of people I've known, people who can write take don't in fact know anyone who can code, and people who can code don't in fact know anyone who can write. I've seen people who had whole games planned down to a T, dialogues, solid characters and stuff - but finding a coder, or making him interested proved to be impossible time and time again. It ussually ends with making comic books instead of videogames, as finding common ground with visual artists is easier than with coders.

It's really sad that a project which lives and dies by atmosphere and writing and ambience like Shadowrun returns ends up with writing that has serious structural problems. I mean, I still enjoyed the game a lot, and there's hardly any competition, but these things never ever really fully realize their potential on silly grounds. People who write them ussually know the tropes, love the tropes, but don't really understand what makes the stuff they like work and why it fails when it fails.

EDIT: It's often the case that people who can make videogames are ussually fans of other media, consumers of other media, but don't actually know how it works (even though they sometimes think they do). I've seen too many cases where the very idea that just replicating or subverting iconic stuff from genre X ISN'T all there is to writing made non-writers panic. Which is a shame. Sorry if I derailed something with this, I won't go on about this.
 
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DeepOcean

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It's just bad video game writing

The more the years go by, the more I get perplexed by this. You'd think at some point some actually good, pro writers would at least stumble into the videogame industry, and someone would make it easier for them to adjust to the "good writing =/= to a lot of text". It can't be that difficult to find people who can do better than bad video game writing.
The question is if you are a good writer, you are probably occupied writing books and trying to get a career going instead of wasting time with video games. If you were good and you know you were good, you would seriously work on an industry that have huge problems in keeping talent in it and just be another guy on a 800 people team that is completely outside of your ability of influence? Without mentioning that most gamers aren't exactly well read people so shitty writers get a pass and don't need to improve to keep a job, just look to David Gayder.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

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Also somebody who's a good writer for passive narratives like novels or comic books might not be a good writer for videogames. In fact those situations here where you are forced into a certain point of view or end up in a situation that conflicts with the gameplay is a consequence of that.
 
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Yeah, the problem is that it is especially difficult to write good stories for videogames. Try to come up with a "serious" reason for our hero(es) to kill an army of enemies and/or solve a ton of arbitrary puzzles that doesn't sound fucking stupid if you read it out loud. At best you'll get a silly action movie plot.
 

tuluse

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Messages
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Ironically, Wiseman created Shadowrun and should have a good head for writing RPGs.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
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The more the years go by, the more I get perplexed by this. You'd think at some point some actually good, pro writers would at least stumble into the videogame industry, and someone would make it easier for them to adjust to the "good writing =/= to a lot of text". It can't be that difficult to find people who can do better than bad video game writing.
It doesn't help that videogame production and development is generally not done using a process that most writers are familiar with. Content constantly changes and gets shifted around and games rarely end up exactly like they were proposed on paper. That tends to wreak havoc with your idea of a consistent, quality narrative, as do things like player agency for that matter.
 

SmartCheetah

Arcane
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May 7, 2013
Messages
1,080
Ok I just finished it. Story wasn't bad in my opinion. Maybe not that solid and pretty naive at times, but it's still "something", especially when compared to other modern-time games.
I must say that I've seriously started to like the setting after Dragonfall and DMS.

More "optional" runs, more interactivity with companions (It was nice to know their background and stuff, but this always could be done better) and l would adore this game. Now I just think it's pretty solid experience with editor around.
 

Canus

Savant
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Jan 26, 2011
Messages
647
As expansions go I think Dragonfall is a massive improvement over DMS, albeit one with a number of glaring issues.

The two major ones, in my opinion, being the lack of optional runs and the shambles that is the inventory system. The inventory system, and the lack of exiting cyberware, are particularly annoying due to the fact they could have been, and probably should have been, dealt with before the games release. Although I suppose it's possible that the inventory system is a consequence of the engine.

Most of the flaws in the game seem to be small, easily correctable issues. I'm not entirely sure if they didn't realise the issues existed or they just didn't fix them, due to whatever reason.
 

oscar

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I liked the protagonist from DMS a lot more. Not just from the Humanis quest but many other instances, it feels a lot more like you're playing an emotionally fragile wuss. You can chose the 'mean' option now and then but at other times you're forced to be the goody two shoes and Mr Carebear what creates a bizarrely schizophrenic PC.

Before the very end game, DMS had more of a consistently noir and mercenary feel than your bleeding-heart hero in DF. It's why the troll girl grew on me over time despite her initially cliched "old hand veteran resenting and projecting a previous failure on to the green replacement".
 

Junmarko

† Cristo è Re †
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Just finished it. Amongst the still remaining flaws with the inventory system and party management, it was leagues better than DMS. I think this may be due to Weisman focusing on Golem Arcana during Dragonfall's development cycle...Empire Strikes Back syndrome? I hope not haha.

But wow...ending is the biggest tease - this was well worth the $15 price tag. I put in 20 hours, but I took it slow.

I've been trying to get all of my friends in on it too, I don't want to see this franchise disappear for another 2 decades.
 

Lujo

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Messages
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The question is if you are a good writer, you are probably occupied writing books and trying to get a career going instead of wasting time with video games. If you were good and you know you were good, you would seriously work on an industry that have huge problems in keeping talent in it and just be another guy on a 800 people team that is completely outside of your ability of influence? Without mentioning that most gamers aren't exactly well read people so shitty writers get a pass and don't need to improve to keep a job, just look to David Gayder.

All of this sorta stands, and you can add to that the fact that the institutions which can give potential writers an education to go with their talent ('cause art is part talent, part craft) keep them sort of not interacting with guys who end up making video games, who are, well people who do applied math for a living. You can enroll in a humanities university and spend your entire life never having anything to do with people who do math (for a given meaning of "anything to do" and "people who do math"). But still, the "pros are busy doing other stuff" isn't true - text writing jobs are significantly less well payed and there are tons of unemployed but well read humanities graduates out there, far more than programers or even visual artists. And there is way too much competition for the consumer money in the book writing bussiness. A good writer who could become a staple of a video game franchise would be mad to decline an offer.

And the "gamers aren't exactly well read" is rather true, stuff is being judged an praised for being better than the competition, while the competition is lousy. An added problem is that there are well read gamers out there in terms of having read a lot of books or seen a lot of movies, but most of that stuff is derivative genre literature. The problem here isn't that there something wrong with genre literature per se (I've read and grew up on it, too), but the reason IT works is that it simplifies structural stuff which works exactly the same in more high-minded literature. But the consumer doesn't really know. It's kind of like if you had amateur coders copy pasting bits of code they like without fully understanding the syntax and the calls and deffinitions, except the you can "run" the end result no matter how much of a mess it is.

Also somebody who's a good writer for passive narratives like novels or comic books might not be a good writer for videogames. In fact those situations here where you are forced into a certain point of view or end up in a situation that conflicts with the gameplay is a consequence of that.

Some of them yes, and this is true even for some of what you call passive narratives - writing for comic books, writing for the theater, or writing for the movies, or writing books/stories are very different things. Heck, even short stories and novels can be as different as rock songs and orchestra music. But a decent writer (not a "brilliant individual genius", but simply a properly educated professional) can see how it's different, adjust to it and account for it. It's not impossible.

Yeah, the problem is that it is especially difficult to write good stories for videogames. Try to come up with a "serious" reason for our hero(es) to kill an army of enemies and/or solve a ton of arbitrary puzzles that doesn't sound fucking stupid if you read it out loud. At best you'll get a silly action movie plot.

As long as you have players sitting down to solve a ton of arbitrary puzzles and the mechanics appease their expectations, you can make the reasons make sense within the context of the game. Set the right tone in the beginning and don't clash with them without proper buildup/forethought/execution, hit the right notes at the right times, and you can get a non-silly action move plot, or a silly action movie plot which takes you along for the ride. Or you could get a decent film-noir plot - they're romantic enough to rely on style and feeling more than brains, but you have to know how those work. Something as simple as making Monica older by having a different portrait for her, and having her be less whimsical in the short time we get to see her would've made the whole game make a lot more "sense", or rather prompt your brain to interfere a lot less. A ton of people who mourn the loss of a decent godfather figure would have an actual godfather figure to mourn, while you could then use your team to gradualy reveal to you that this person was also a person who they personally had reasons to work for thus humanizing her and making her death mean something on both a social and individual level - without immersion breaking saccharine.

I think you could actually mod that into the game in a matter of an afternoon, with the existing dialogue trees, and possibly end up with less text than there currently is. I might be wrong, but the chance is rather fair. Video game writing doesn't have to be thought provoking, but it does require proper thought going into it while it's being made.

Say, is there a way to access the dialogues in an easily editable format? I'd show an example of what I mean, this is kinda like me bashing stuff without trying to contribute, and I kinda know I'm able to...
 
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Riel

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A good solid litle game. It's true that companions are way too Biowarish and certainly the worst part of the game but mission design was miles ahead of most of what I've played lately, Blackguards has better encounter design, but hell this game lets you really chose how to tackle each problem. Skill checks in dialogues and interactable objects are everywhere and can make your life easier/harder and in some cases even change completly how you proceed ahead. A pity the main story ends being another "save the world" main plot, it's geting tiring, but the trip to that world saving mission is great :)
 
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dryan

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1,443
A pity the main story ends being another "save the world" main plot, it's geting tiring, but the trip to that world saving mission is great :)

Quite the contrary, the plot was
"kill the guy who wants to save the world".
 

DeepOcean

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Also somebody who's a good writer for passive narratives like novels or comic books might not be a good writer for videogames. In fact those situations here where you are forced into a certain point of view or end up in a situation that conflicts with the gameplay is a consequence of that.
I agree. There is a pronounced lack of interest in trying to understand how video games narratives should work, you have the "I wanna be a movie director but I don't have the talent for that." crowd and on the other side the "I wanna write a book where you move pretty pictures between the walls of text for you to passively read." crowd. You see Obsidian and InExile doing their thing but still far away from a truly interactive storyline.

It could be a paradox where computer games allow for interactivity but they are so expensive to make that most developers say: "Fuck it! It is Biowerean fake choices on your throat." Maybe there is a way to solve this dilemma but the talent or disposition is really lacking. Besides, with morons fapping to your shitty storylines, why David Gayder and company would care to improve? They already have a cushy job and people really think that Tali suicide is the most dramatic videogame scene ever and that Beyond Two Jasons is a revolution of storytelling.:lol:

Maybe a RPG that abandons the usual main storyline/side quest divisions and reduce the lengh and scope to provide real interactivity could be doable. Honestly, when I was a teenager, I finished BG 2, Planescape Torment, Fallout 2 on a binge, while they have a quality of offering worlds for you to explore and discover tons of sidequests, they are more like sandboxes where the main storyline is just a pretext for you to explore and give you something for you to not feel completely aimless. They had so much fat that could be easily cut and energy that could had been applied in offering more interactivity... I wonder what a RPG more or less on the size of Dragonfall with true player agency could be.
 

Junmarko

† Cristo è Re †
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Anyone know if the other party members have side missions? I completed only one from Dietrich on my first play through, and I was unsure if perhaps my charisma was too low - in order to coerce the others into a mission request.
 

DeepOcean

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Anyone know if the other party members have side missions? I completed only one from Dietrich on my first play through, and I was unsure if perhaps my charisma was too low - in order to coerce the others into a mission request.
No, just Dietrich.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
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Well I finaly got nearby the end and just lost any interest in finishing the story. The gameplay was really an improvement with a few nice fights even with a little too easy but the ending? Shit... I really hate epic shit.
I expected that Vauclair would be someone with a interesting and more nuanced plan, but he is just a boring german Dr. Evil. WTF HBS, how many times are we going to save the world? Imagine if the world wasn't filled by random curious shadowrunners so lucky to overcome all the odds and do the daily job of saving it. It would be cities blowing all over the place.:lol:Seriously, after Vauclair tell that plan to use the big dragon as a giant flying virus spray, I just facepalmed so hard that my face hurt from the impact... Yeah, sure, we don't deserve a better villain than one that came out of a shitty comic book.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
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Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,186
That DLC should have been included in inital release, this is much more better . Thats more like what i was expecting from a shadowrun game , now multiple dialogue choices according your skils and even your teamates skills, much more though have been put into this. As said before way better level designs with multiple possibilities and paths . Finally a save system , that wasnt so hard was it ?
I hope for next big epic campaign with even more sides missions, i'd play full price for this .
 

Riel

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A pity the main story ends being another "save the world" main plot, it's geting tiring, but the trip to that world saving mission is great :)

Quite the contrary, the plot was
"kill the guy who wants to save the world".

Nope, from the 20% of the game or so the aim of the story is to save the world only in the last 10% of the story it gets "complicated" with grays all around, but honestly not that gray, Vauclair's just crazy and a 100% psichopat regardless of the rest of the story.
 

Zetor

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From an Earthdawn point of view, I'd say the plot is more about
"kill the guy before he can completely doom the world by destroying the most powerful entities that could fight against a looming Horror invasion"

(that said, I killed Firewing because taking the risk of keeping her alive isn't really worth it either)
 

Lujo

Augur
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Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
^ Yep, that's another pacing thing.

There's also a weird plot inconsistency when

you're jumped on the subway.

I got jumped after the rigger mission, and all the while I thought it was the guy who paid me to kill the rigger trying to get rid of me in case I got something out of the rigger before I killed him, just in case. I was really surprised that it was the guys related to the main quest. I was like "how to they even know about me? why do they care this much?". And then later even the BBEG went "Who are you, and what in the world are you even doing here?" when we finally met - which then made sense, except he's allready sent thugs against me and attacked a neighbourhood just to smoke me - and quite elaborately too.

They were trying to hard to epic it up when there wasn't any need. If there was a mission to investigate the SOX looking for clues on the old orc with a minigun where you found out that a woman was stolen from the cult - then at alets Audran could've been alerted to you properly and you could've got the firewing connection from there. If there was a mission where you found clues about Apex or the Renewal cult where Apex was guiding you towards it's lair, again it would make some sense you got attacked. Alice could've been finding stuff for you more gradually, and so on... It'd all make you more of a proper stumbling noir protagonist and have everything rely on infodumps and sudden genre shifts and could keep the epic aim really shrouded in mystery...
 

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