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Shadow of the Tomb Raider - the final chapter from Eidos Montreal

kangaxx

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Plus they downsized combat massively but left the rest of the game structure untouched. So it's all built as if the game is still just as heavy combat focused as Rise. Still tons of ways to get XP, gear and upgrade materials even though it's all completely useless. Retarded Canadians.

This sums up why Shadow was so awful. They were caught in two minds between the first two reboots that played like Uncharted, and the originals in terms of puzzles and platforming. But it fell horribly short on both counts and ended up being boring af. There's just so little atmosphere, and then there's the dumb ancient village hidden away in the mountains but BAM - Trinity (aka Spectre, aka Generic Bad Guy Syndicate) are there first. Just so crap.

I can't even remember what happens in the second half of Rise or Shadow (played Shadow a year ago). The writing was eye-clawingly bad. I just read a two paragraph plot summary of Shadow and nearly had to stop out of boredom. The story of the original TR was clean and most importantly unobtrusive by comparison, and the limited human(oid) cast (Lara, Natla, Larson, Dupont then the three mooks) were at least all interesting and somewhat witty.

The original Core title in '96 was one of my favourite games at the time, and I'd love to play another game that recaptures the atmosphere they managed. Minimalist but effective sound, expansive internal locations and the actual feeling that you were the first person in there for centuries. The Anniversary trilogy did a pretty good job, but the reboots were just cash-ins IMO. The first two were fun at the time as shooters, and the third was absolute garbo.
 

AwesomeButton

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There's just so little atmosphere, and then there's the dumb ancient village hidden away in the mountains but BAM - Trinity (aka Spectre, aka Generic Bad Guy Syndicate) are there first. Just so crap.
Depends on how serious you approach it, I expect to laugh a lot. Generic Bad Guy Syndicates are so classic by now. You should play Hitman 2016/2019 as well.
 

cvv

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The main thing I'm expecting from Shadows is tough puzzles, more open areas than in TR2013, and pretty graphics (which I can see are there). I'm trying to be prudent by setting the bar low.

Not low enough. If I'm right you'll understand exactly what we mean a few hours into the game. Come back when you do.
 

AwesomeButton

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The main thing I'm expecting from Shadows is tough puzzles, more open areas than in TR2013, and pretty graphics (which I can see are there). I'm trying to be prudent by setting the bar low.

Not low enough. If I'm right you'll understand exactly what we mean a few hours into the game. Come back when you do.
I should clarify that I've watched the 1st hour of gameplay ("gameplay") on MKIceandFire's channel, and I'm ok with that level of bland writing and plot.
 
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aweigh

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shadow of the tomb raider looks beautiful but it SUCKS.

also they made Lara even uglier, shorter and fatter (doughy). Also they gave her CANKLES in the parts where you're forced to wear an ugly tribal dress.

Play it for the graphics, nothing more.
 

Adon

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Don't skip Rise, but I would probably have a gap between both games. They're too similar despite one having a focus more on exploration and puzzles (Shadow) and the other one being a more typical open-world game (Rise).

And I have the complete opposite opinion on Lara. She goes from being a caricature (2013) to being meh (Rise) to being an actual, flawed character (Shadow).
 

AwesomeButton

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You've sparked my curiosity about Lara.

I'm 4 hours into Rise, and having a blast honestly. I just reached the train yard campsite. I don't get it yet how Rise is an open world game. I can fast-travel between camps like I could in TR2013, but I don't think that's what people mean by open world, and the areas themselves are rather linear in their layout.

Just when I thought I would rush through the game in order to get to Shadows faster, and I was reminded about the language knowledge collectibles mechanic. Now I'm afraid that as a philologist, I can't allow Lara not to master all the languages.

BTW, I saw that occasionally the "Russian" on plaques and signs is actually Bulgarian. Either the CD artists didn't manage their assets very well when they were collecting googled materials, or there is some very deeply concealed conspiracy here.

I like the "lost prophet" theme much better than the mystery of the lost Japanese kingdom. It's kind of silly that in "document" log entries even his enemies refer to him as "the prophet". In reality the official church authority would never use such a name for someone who is considered a heretic. But that falls within the acceptable margin of silliness.
 
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Adon

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It opens up, but open-world probably isn't the most accurate description, just the best one. It's more like a series of interconnected hubs that all have their own set of objectives/collectibles in the vein of open-world games. I haven't played any Assassin's Creed games besides the first one, but I would say that the comparison isn't too far off.
 

DalekFlay

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The newer AC games are very much open world. I'd think Dark Souls or "metroidvanias" would be a better comparison, at least with Tomb Raider 2013.
 

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Checking in as I've just entered the Geothermal Valley area, after reaching something like 89% completion of the Soviet Installation area.

Technical impressions first, as I think they are the more important.

Regarding my question about whether it's worth it to upgrade to Windows 10 for Shadows -- I found a youtube video of some guy showing off his FPS in Rise, using the same videocard as me (1080Ti) a better CPU (8750 vs my 4790k) and more ram (16gb vs my 8gb), neither of which is all that important in this case.

Seeing as he was getting significantly higher FPS, I decided to upgrade to Windows 10. It worked remarkably hassle-free, so now I'm a legal Windows user for the first time since I've owned a PC.

The important thing is that switching to DX12 nearly doubled my FPS. In Geothermal Valley where I was getting around 47-55 fps at 1440p, I'm now getting ~77 - ~90 fps while running around the valley outdoor area with DX 12. I can practically play in 4K now with the game details maxed out completely (only AA is kept at the SMAA setting, but the differences in quality from going above are next to zero anyway) and framerate in the higher 40s - lower 50s most of the time, when it's not above these levels.

Now game impressions:
It felt underwhelming to find out that the game only has two larger-scale areas where the player is expected to gradually unlock pieces of these areas, and also run through them end to end multiple times.

Respawning animals and occasionally enemies - dull.

Neither of the big areas is really big enough to feel "open", they both seem more like bigger obstacle courses.

I've been playing for 18 hours now and I'm just in the Geothermal Valley. Hunting collectibles isn't all that satisfactory and I'm tempted to rush forward to the end, only grabbing the collectibles which are on my way.

Obviously, none of the character or gear upgrades matter significantly in terms of gampelay advantage, not that I expected them to after playing TR2013.

The tombs are much more interesting, but there is still room for improvement. The reduced amount of combat sequences is welcome. I'm looking forward to Shadows, where there is supposed to be less shooting and more puzzles.

The story's inanity is completely within the limits of the tolerable for me. I didn't expect much more.

Regarding Shadows however, I think I'll only play this once I have an RTX card I watched a video which I linked yesterday in the PS5 thread, and the differences are significant if you use RTX there. So much so that I think playing without RTX will kind of spoil the experience.
 

DalekFlay

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Regarding Shadows however, I think I'll only play this once I have an RTX card I watched a video which I linked yesterday in the PS5 thread, and the differences are significant if you use RTX there. So much so that I think playing without RTX will kind of spoil the experience.

Wha? It's just shadows, and every breakdown video I've watched has said normal ultra shadows actually look better, and backed that up with comparisons. There's an annoying pop-in issue with RTX shadows where they only become RTX shadows when you get close, while ultra shadows are crisp into the distance.
 

AwesomeButton

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I'm finsihing TR2013 today. After trying it out for a couple of hours and leaving it back in 2014, I found it surprisingly entertaining, something like a better, more varied Max Payne with some puzzles added.
Die
21413.jpg
 

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I quite enjoyed the TR 2013 and Rise popamole (looseamole?) combat but Max Payne is a pretty bizarre comparison :lol:
 

Israfael

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DX12 is mandatory with SoTTR, your FPS will tank heavily in Paititi if you use DX11 (especially if GPU is something that is substantially better than RX480 or GTX1060, or if CPU is an old i5 or even Bulldozer). Also, recently I've finished the RoTTR, with one DLC (i think). I rarely pay attention to the plot in such games, but this one is downright hilariously insulting for anyone who speaks Russian.

Pretty sure there's the same kind of shit with every 'exotic' culture they try to represent, but why on Earth do you have to burn posters with Gagarin (and it's not just the obviously wrong theme, but also VERY anochronistic), why there is the same generic WWII memorials represented as something from a GULAG (It actually says "Glory to the Soviet warriors who defended us from the Nazi menace" or something like that, not that drivel that Lara "translates" them into), why there's a nameplate from a freight train locomotive proudly attached to an assortment of buildings, an actual NKVD officer ident card being portrayed as "GULAG prisoner card" (imagine if something happened like that in a game that was displaying something like Auschwitz and people from ADL or Israeli govt saw that, shit would go ballistic :lol:), a weird amalgamation of typically Protestant and Orthodox church (I'm pretty sure there's a plenty of churches in the US if you need to see how it actually looks like - I'm not even a believer but I've been inside several including Kievan Saint Sophia and Moscow's St. Basil).

About the other things - sure, the game is an improvement over the 2013 one, but still there's a lot of things SoTTR is better, including tomb design, weapon balance (in the way it is, of course, but still, something like poison arrows should not simply exist. I basically steamrolled through every combat encounter if I had some shrooms in my stash, sometimes the game even crashed as all the baddies died simultaneously thanks to that OP gas. With upgrades and the outfit that increases specialist ammo, you don't even have to aim, just shoot and it's done), gameplay variety and so on. I guess, some people play such games for the plot, but i'm sure there's a lot of much better options on the market (since you don't care about the gameplay and buy it only to look at Lara's ass or face or experience 'narrative immershun') :shittydog:
 

bloodlover

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I grabbed this one recently since it was on sale and I wanted to see how my graphic card handles it. The only good things that come to mind are graphics and tombs. The jungle really does look excellent, as well as animations and lightning. Tombs are good too, much much better than what the 2013 game had (I still need to finish that one but eh...) and there is much less shooting by comparison so that's always a plus. Everything else though... Stealth is average, shooting is popamole, story is forgettable, characters are generic.

At this point I almost played 2/3 games from the new trilogy and I am not very impressed. Kudos to the studio for wanting to make something different but the end result is very familiar. My main issue with the games is that they are trying to fit in the "open world/hub" design that many games have these days and imo that does not work for TR. In older TR games you were mostly alone in abandoned temples or tombs or whatever and rarely ever met a human being but here your tomb is right next to a populated city/village/camp. It takes away a bit from the atmosphere and when you exit the tomb you are always 5 feet away from civilization. I am also not a fan of the game being set in one location (this is one of the consequences of having a "hub design"). One of the things that was fun in the older games was the fact that you visited new locations each level, with new puzzles and environments. Imagine traveling through China or Egypt with this engine instead of the endless jungle that we get for 25+ hours.

Last but not least, I am very bummed that we STILL did not get the iconic pistols. I saw that they tried to make the bow the main weapon and while it's fun to use, it's not as iconic as Lara's pistols.

So in the end, nice graphics and good tombs... in a Tomb Raider game but everything else is meh.

I do hope that in the next game they go back to the old formula where we can explore different areas of the Globe. Making a fast travel system there would work more or less the same except that with different locations you can access different gear and guns and crafting materials (let's face it, gunplay and crafting are here to stay).
 
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kangaxx

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On the civilisation point, it occurred to me while I was playing that I managed to break into a tomb through someone's house (or shop or something).

Behind a bookcase against a big hole in the wall there was a big concrete slide with spike traps all the way down. Do these villagers not have health and safety?!
 

DalekFlay

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I wouldn't say the reboots are that open world, more "metroidvania," which I think actually fits the series really well.
 

AwesomeButton

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The main thing I'm expecting from Shadows is tough puzzles, more open areas than in TR2013, and pretty graphics (which I can see are there). I'm trying to be prudent by setting the bar low.

Not low enough. If I'm right you'll understand exactly what we mean a few hours into the game. Come back when you do.
It's funny reading my stuff one year later. Actually, as I keep playing Shadow, my good impressions are gradually rising, not unlike a boner would... but nevermind.

While it's basically the same game in a different setting, there are slight but steady improvements in each part of the formula. When put together, they make for a noticeable difference.

The biggest for me is exploring a jungle instead of an arctic/taiga environment. The jungle just feels a lot more exotic, inspiring and believable as a setting for an adventure. It's also a much better environment to show off the graphics with. Playing at fully maxed settings and on my native 4K feels great, and makes me wish I was playing on a big TV instead of on my 27-inch display.

The jungle made me want to larp around with stealth and use the bow exclusively, which leads me to the stealth mechanics which feel improved, and the environments actually incite me to use stealth. Maybe it's just me, but in Rise it usually felt like too much trouble instead of simply shooting up everyone instead of sneaking. In Shadow I got killed a couple of times when I took on 4 guys at once. Stealth on the other hand, feels fun.

The one time I used the pistol and a bit of assault rifle in one side mission, the gunshot sounds actually felt excellent, and popping headshots gave that nice and very satisfying feeling.

I strongly approve of the idea of having dangerous explorable environments (tombs) which reward with outfits, and other such locations that reward with unique skills. Finding parts of weapons in Rise felt silly and less of a reward if you're not going to use that weapon. The outfit at least has the upside that you can check out how Lara will look in it, even if you never use it, and so far all of them have some contextual use that makes them worth having at your disposal.

The game generally feels rebalanced towards more careful playing, compared to Rise, and if you want you can configure the difficulty to make it quite punishing.

The skills tree made me want to buy many upgrades at a time, so the scarcity of skill points is felt, and most of the skill upgrades are impactful, although you can't seriously speak of "builds", but I don't think that was ever the intention. In any case it's a big improvement over the previous games where I was maxing out skill trees just out of pedantism, without needing the skills.

I'm not far into the story, just passed the trials, but with regard to the characters, I like the idea of Lara being a wilful brat who gets her nose rubbed, learns and struggles with the feeling of responsibility. The villain also seems miles ahead of the Rise or TR2013 levels.

Since some guy recommends that I try Uncharted 4, I wonder how does that compare in terms of gameplay? Are puzzles and combat even more simplistic, and it's just an interactive movie where you press buttons from time to time, or is it comparable to Shadow of the Tomb Raider
 
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Correct_Carlo

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The gameplay of Shadow is fine. It kept me interested, but it doesn't do anything amazing. The reason to play is that it's the best looking game on the market, runs incredibly well, and has all the graphical bells and whistles currently in existence (HDR 10, DLSS, Ray Tracing).
 

kangaxx

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I was very surprised to see this thread reappear in my emails to be honest. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on completion of Shadow, because my opinion is that the game is gash beyond all repair. I would be delighted to discuss this when you're finished with it.

Edit: to be clear I am old and loved the original TRs on release so I'm speaking from a fast sniffing position of self-aggrandisement.
 
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DemonKing

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Since some guy recommends that I try Uncharted 4, I wonder how does that compare in terms of gameplay?

Uncharted 4 is a better game in terms of pacing and controls. I found Shadows had too many lulls between action sequences whereas U4 has more gameplay variety (eg stealth, on wheels sequences, puzzle solving, combat, breathtaking scenery etc). Also U4 let's you invert the camera selectively for both movement and aiming, whereas Shadows if you change one you're changing both which made the aiming clunky for me on console.

Personally I think the original TR reboot was the best and they've gone progressively downhill since then.
 

janior

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I thought Rise already had awful writing and story but shadow is the new low its super cringe and the only thing that is improved from previous game are the tombs as mentioned eariler
 

JarlFrank

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I started playing Shadow a few weeks ago and am enjoying it a lot more than the first from the reboot trilogy. Skipped Rise as it wasn't in my library yet, but bought it on a sale for 5 bucks meanwhile. Don't care too much about the story, but apparently some organisation called Trinity is involved... whatever, that sounds like the most generic action movie plot ever, done a thousand times before.

The gameplay is decent and takes a few steps back towards classic TR, which the original reboot had moved away from. The open worldish jungle exploration segments are decent, sometimes you have to think to find the path to an optional artifact chest you wanna reach. The tombs are the best part about the game, the puzzles are a lot more interesting than anything in TR2013. Visually the game is great, especially that hidden Inca city, lots of verticality in its design. If this were a city in an action RPG like Gothic or Elder Scrolls, I'd rate it among the best RPG cities ever. Too bad it isn't an RPG so there's barely any side questing and NPC talking to be done, but it's still cool to explore and find the artifact chests. Also one of the challenge tomb entrances is hidden in a well, which is cool.

The tombs almost feel like oldschool TR. They're still much smaller than those in the original games, but not as pitifully tiny as the TR2013 tombs. Just yesterday I made it through the sun temple tomb with the mirror puzzles, and that one kept me thinking and experimenting for a while. Not bad.

Even if the story and writing ends up being complete bullshit, the tombs and puzzles are better, therefore it's a better Tomb Raider game than TR2013.
I hope Crystal Dynamics go back to making puzzle-focused tomb raiding in the next game, Shadow is a solid successor to Underworld.
 

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