Vapourware Seven Dragon Saga - Gold Box spiritual successor from SSI veterans

[Jaesun]

I hated when I found out those were real-time POP-A-MOLE. I've played a few hours of Ravenloft, and it was.........OK. But it did NOT age wisely.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

One SSI game I never tried was Hillsfar. I loved POR and got really excited when I heard there was a new game coming out that I could import my POR characters into... then a friend bought it and advised everyone to avoid it like the plague, that it was nothing like POR. What a letdown.

 

[mondblut]

To Gold Box enthusiasts: where do you position the Ravenloft series and the other 1st person DreamForge games published by SSI with regard to the Gold Box games?

Popamole trash, but Ravenloft games had great setting and atmosphere. The "you know they suck but can't stop liking them anyway" kind of games, not unlike PST.

 

[garfield666]

ah, ssi. the very first crpg i ever played was ssi's 'demon's winter'. i hope the new outfit won't rape my nostalgia too much. i wouldn't mind remakes of goldbox games and dark suns though.

 

[Decado]

To Gold Box enthusiasts: where do you position the Ravenloft series and the other 1st person DreamForge games published by SSI with regard to the Gold Box games?

Haha fuck! Totally forgot about the Ravenloft games. Played the shit out of them, they were great.

 

[Zetor]

I consider both Ravenloft and Menzoberranzan to be crap (especially Menzoberranzan -- it's a stupid setting to begin with). The only decent Dreamforge games were The Summoning and (sorta) Anvil of Dawn, and I'm sure most of that is due to nostalgia, too...

 

[ProphetSword]

They should just do an updated Gold-Box game with updated graphics with a D&D-like engine (perhaps using the OGL) in a world of their own creation. Providing they don't screw it up, it's like instant money. I'm already opening my wallet just thinking about it (despite it being full of cobwebs).

 

[cherry blossom]

I've played a few hours of Ravenloft, and it was.........OK. But it did NOT age wisely.

I quite very much like the Ravenloft games (sans the RT combat) and still find them beautiful and very playable. If only someone could hack the games to be TB.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Well, regarding Dark Sun VS older Gold Box titles, I think it depends on your age and what have you encountered first. For me Dark Sun was my first PC RPG, so I (subjectively) find it superior to Gold Box titles. I don't deny that quite a few Gold Box titles were pretty awesome, it's just they were hard to get into after Dark Sun, and both interface and visuals weren't to my liking. :graphicswhore:

 

[Telengard]

Is there a good interview or something that lays out what happened in the bad years at SSI and points fingers at who fucked up?

Matt Barton has an interview with Joel [forgot last name], the founder and president of SSI.
IIRC much of the problems was due to the transition to new engines after the Gold Box games and things taking much longer than planned. I think the first Dark Sun game was delayed a whole year, for example. They should have milked the GB engine a bit more, I think.

Joel Billings - http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/matt-chat-181-joel-billings-ssi-interview.79844/

Also
http://www.nowgamer.com/features/894703/company_profile_ssi_part_1.html
http://www.nowgamer.com/features/894711/company_profile_ssi_part_2.html

While Panzer General was in development, SSI started on another TSR-licensed RPG called Dark Sun. By now, the Gold Box series had already seen 12 titles and was beginning to show signs of age. Eager to step things up with a second generation of RPG titles, SSI felt that the harsh desert world of Athas had all the promise to be another big seller. The development team got to work creating an entirely new engine with new gameplay mechanics and improved graphics. However, it wasn’t too long before the project started causing big trouble for the company.

“The Dark Sun project killed us,” admits Joel. “We thought we could do it in one year, like we had done with Pool Of Radiance in 1987-88, but we were wrong. When DS took two years instead of one, things began to get very tough in late 1992 and early 1993, leading us to lay off around 20-25 people in early 1993. Dark Sun finally came out in September 1993, but the delay had scared us enough to realise that big projects would now require $1 million or more, and we didn’t have the resources to risk another failure.” Joel continues, “My uncle was the guarantor on our bank loans, so it wasn’t fair to risk things. We needed to either raise money and thus lose family control (at that point EA owned 20 per cent, my extended family owned 55 per cent, and employees and ex-employees owned the rest), or sell the company and become part of a bigger company that could invest in those expensive projects.”

Joel eventually opted for the latter, and just before Panzer General was released, SSI was sold to Mindscape. It was early 1994, and SSI had just taken its first steps into the world of corporate reshuffles. Just as gaming legends, Origin, Sierra and Broderbund before it, SSI would soon be swallowed up by the corporate giants that were devouring the very industry it had helped to create. Fast-forward to 1998, and Mindscape had been sold to The Learning Company, by which time Joel had long retired as president. In turn, The Learning Company was acquired by Mattell in 1999. Still working as vice president in charge of games for Mindscape, Joel eventually left the company in January 2000, and was followed soon after by Chuck. When it was revealed that The Learning Company was, in fact, not making any money at all, Mattell’s new CEO decided to get rid of the games division entirely. “Ubisoft was handed the entire gaming portfolio, either for free, or it may have been paid to take TLC off their books,” recalls Louis Saekow. “Mattell’s books were making huge losses from gaming, but this had nothing to do with SSI. In fact, SSI was always sitting with revenues around 15 or 18 million dollars, which was really good for a wargame company, but wasn’t the sexy numbers that Ubisoft was after. Ubisoft ran its focus more towards videogames and big-seller games, and that’s why Joel started 2by3 – because he wanted to keep supporting his love of wargames.”

One of the greatest lessons that we can take from the SSI story is that when the driving force behind games development is a management team focused more on sales and marketing than actually having a passion for gaming, things will inevitably fall apart.

 

[Jaesun]

I quite very much like the Ravenloft games (sans the RT combat) and still find them beautiful and very playable. If only someone could hack the games to be TB.

I'm actually surprised no one has done this in FRUA. There might be some encounter, or monster or some other design limitation that FRUA cannot do, which could be a problem. But for the most part, it would seem do-able.

Someone did do RA1 - 3 for FRUA (Sadly they didn't seem to do RA4 - 6 though). I don't know if they are any good. I may give them a try after I finish Gateway/Treasure of the Frontier.

 

[ProphetSword]

I am happy that SSI was smart enough to create FRUA before they ditched the Gold-Box engine completely. There are a lot of really great games for FRUA, most of which never get played because they aren't remakes of known modules or other properties. I think it's a shame sometimes that the decent community made modules get passed over so often so that people can play "Pool of Radiance" again.

But, at least, the Gold-Box games never died for those of us that have been in that community since 1993.

 

[Volourn]

They'll make 2-3 good games and then go overkill with their engine until they die after the 6th spam passing as a game. History repeats itself. Let's see what they do.


"(and they sure as hell sold a lot of them)"

Define 'a lot'. Also, pay attention how sales continually feel. Maybe POR1 was a success but was aprt 200 a success/ Highly doubtful. Or else they would have stayed in business.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Introducing TSI – Tactical Simulations Interactive
New independent video games studio formed by SSI alumni, aiming to bring back the “Gold Box” RPG experience for a new generation.I

I'd write something snarky but I want to believe, this sounds so promising.

 

[Telengard]

They'll make 2-3 good games and then go overkill with their engine until they die after the 6th spam passing as a game. History repeats itself. Let's see what they do.


"(and they sure as hell sold a lot of them)"

Define 'a lot'. Also, pay attention how sales continually feel. Maybe POR1 was a success but was aprt 200 a success/ Highly doubtful. Or else they would have stayed in business.

No need to speculate. Mr. Billings released all financials (as well as a bunch of other SSI material) to a museum, so you can become a member and go and view them at any time.

 

[Volourn]

Take your shilling and fanboyism elsewhere. The company failed. FAILED. This is FACT.

 

[Roguey]

According to this box art on one of their compilations, nine of the gold box games combined sold about a million as of 1994. The three individual collections say 500,000 each so I guess it's closer to 1.5.

Meanwhile seven Wizardry games sold five million and that still couldn't save Sir Tech.

 

[Null Null]

Take your shilling and fanboyism elsewhere. The company failed. FAILED. This is FACT.

Much as I hate to step into a flamewar, the fact that these guys' company failed financially doesn't mean they can't make good games. The arts are full of people who were really good creatively but crappy businessmen.

Oh, and I'll again shill for The Sect, if we're talking FRUA. Lotsa hacks, you can actually buy stuff will all that money you're hauling around, and German/potty humor.

 

[Shadowfang]

So more Panzer General clones?

Spoiler

I like the fact they have a dragon as their logo.
Gives hope that they are true to their origins.

 

[ProphetSword]

Define 'a lot'. Also, pay attention how sales continually feel. Maybe POR1 was a success but was aprt 200 a success/ Highly doubtful. Or else they would have stayed in business.

A Lot (Definition): A shit-ton. More than you can count. A whole heap.

Believe what you want. They sold enough of them to warrant 12 games...and one of the first online MMOs...

So yeah. They sold a lot of them. A whole lot.

 

[octavius]

I bet Josh Sawyer even bought and enjoyed all of them.

 

[Volourn]

"A Lot (Definition): A shit-ton. More than you can count. A whole heap.

Believe what you want. They sold enough of them to warrant 12 games...and one of the first online MMOs...

So yeah. They sold a lot of them. A whole lot."

Sure, the earlier ones did. Nobody is disputing POR was unsuccessful. However, game 310, etc.? Nah. The company FAILED because it started making shitty games and the customers left in droves. That's why they deserved to go under.

Game #1 = success doesn't mean game #12 was. You dumb shit. And, I like the GB games but the company failed. PERIOD.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Take your shilling and fanboyism elsewhere. The company failed. FAILED. This is FACT.

Much as I hate to step into a flamewar, the fact that these guys' company failed financially doesn't mean they can't make good games. The arts are full of people who were really good creatively but crappy businessmen.

Late SSI wasn't good creatively.

They made the horrible Panzer General series.
They made dumbed down Wh40k Steel Panthers.
They managed to decline their Wh40k offer by making a horrible Panzer General clone set in Wh40k.
They also made some RTS crap.

 

[bussinrounds]

 

[PhantasmaNL]

Is there a good interview or something that lays out what happened in the bad years at SSI and points fingers at who fucked up?

Matt Barton has an interview with Joel [forgot last name], the founder and president of SSI.
IIRC much of the problems was due to the transition to new engines after the Gold Box games and things taking much longer than planned. I think the first Dark Sun game was delayed a whole year, for example. They should have milked the GB engine a bit more, I think.

Joel Billings - http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/matt-chat-181-joel-billings-ssi-interview.79844/

Also
http://www.nowgamer.com/features/894703/company_profile_ssi_part_1.html
http://www.nowgamer.com/features/894711/company_profile_ssi_part_2.html

While Panzer General was in development, SSI started on another TSR-licensed RPG called Dark Sun. By now, the Gold Box series had already seen 12 titles and was beginning to show signs of age. Eager to step things up with a second generation of RPG titles, SSI felt that the harsh desert world of Athas had all the promise to be another big seller. The development team got to work creating an entirely new engine with new gameplay mechanics and improved graphics. However, it wasn’t too long before the project started causing big trouble for the company.

“The Dark Sun project killed us,” admits Joel. “We thought we could do it in one year, like we had done with Pool Of Radiance in 1987-88, but we were wrong. When DS took two years instead of one, things began to get very tough in late 1992 and early 1993, leading us to lay off around 20-25 people in early 1993. Dark Sun finally came out in September 1993, but the delay had scared us enough to realise that big projects would now require $1 million or more, and we didn’t have the resources to risk another failure.” Joel continues, “My uncle was the guarantor on our bank loans, so it wasn’t fair to risk things. We needed to either raise money and thus lose family control (at that point EA owned 20 per cent, my extended family owned 55 per cent, and employees and ex-employees owned the rest), or sell the company and become part of a bigger company that could invest in those expensive projects.”

Joel eventually opted for the latter, and just before Panzer General was released, SSI was sold to Mindscape. It was early 1994, and SSI had just taken its first steps into the world of corporate reshuffles. Just as gaming legends, Origin, Sierra and Broderbund before it, SSI would soon be swallowed up by the corporate giants that were devouring the very industry it had helped to create. Fast-forward to 1998, and Mindscape had been sold to The Learning Company, by which time Joel had long retired as president. In turn, The Learning Company was acquired by Mattell in 1999. Still working as vice president in charge of games for Mindscape, Joel eventually left the company in January 2000, and was followed soon after by Chuck. When it was revealed that The Learning Company was, in fact, not making any money at all, Mattell’s new CEO decided to get rid of the games division entirely. “Ubisoft was handed the entire gaming portfolio, either for free, or it may have been paid to take TLC off their books,” recalls Louis Saekow. “Mattell’s books were making huge losses from gaming, but this had nothing to do with SSI. In fact, SSI was always sitting with revenues around 15 or 18 million dollars, which was really good for a wargame company, but wasn’t the sexy numbers that Ubisoft was after. Ubisoft ran its focus more towards videogames and big-seller games, and that’s why Joel started 2by3 – because he wanted to keep supporting his love of wargames.”

One of the greatest lessons that we can take from the SSI story is that when the driving force behind games development is a management team focused more on sales and marketing than actually having a passion for gaming, things will inevitably fall apart.

Interesting, and i would welcome a new start/reboot of the SSI of the old days!

Btw SSI's war/strategic games were great too, played alot of them. And they made the first "dumbed down" but extremely fun wargame for the masses that groignards could enjoy too, Panzer General.

Lessons here for Larian : never ever sell your company to money hoarding entities who dont care about games At All.