"Second best stealth game after Thief" is actually a pretty good topic for a thread.

[Multidirectional]

Dishonored is a better stealth game than Splinter Cell.

Maybe you could also say Batman games have better stealth.

 

[Carrion]

Guys, you are forgetting Rainbow Six. The first two titles, that is.

The fucking stealth missions in Rogue Spear...



Fifteen minutes of pure agony, over and over again until you finally manage to memorize the movements of all the enemies on the level and pull off that perfect ghost run. It's pretty satisfying when you finally manage to do it, though.

 

[DalekFlay]

Well...that doesn't really answer my question. For instance, in MGS2, in the prologue Tanker chapter, the game lets you know that your shadow can be detected by enemies. I'm wondering if the supposedly better stealth games have this feature?

I think it's funny you're focusing on that specific thing as the bearer of great stealth. Anyway no, I don't think Splinter Cell, Hitman or Dishonored for that matter have the AI notice shadow changes.

Also Metal Gear sucks.

 

[Ninjerk]

There was a lot of discussion before DXHR came out about how time consuming and difficult it is to make shadow based stealth.

 

[Roguey]

You were supposed to use your ears to tell if there was a guard around the corner in Thief. I think every single thing made some kind of noise if you were patient.

Thief also had leaning, so you didn't need to have 3rd person cheating.

Did you like not read http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235201156538704283 or http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235284823680222305
It didn't need "3rd person cheating" because you had "hide in the shadows" cheating.

unrealistic

ffffffffffffffffffffffhahahahaha

Okay, enjoy your garbage games. I will continue playing good stealth games where you can wait patiently in safety while observing enemy patterns.

Ok not to popamole but can somebody concisely describe what made Chaos Theory better than original SC or Double Agent? The level design wasn't that much better, and DA implemented C&C in regards to the final mission.

Josh hates Double Agent because stealth became a binary switch (either you're detected or you're not) and they used red and green which made it impossible for him to play because he's colorblind.

 

[octavius]

@Roguey, do you have opinions of your own, or are you a puppet with Sawyer's hand up your ass?

 

[Infinitron]

puppet with Sawyer's hand up your ass?

I believe it may be this sort of hand:

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Thief also had leaning, so you didn't need to have 3rd person cheating.

Did you like not read http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235201156538704283 or http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235284823680222305
It didn't need "3rd person cheating" because you had "hide in the shadows" cheating.

In Thief, their equivalent to being able to peer around corners was being able to observe from darkness. Most corners and approaches were darkened to allow players to move to a position from which they could observe guard patterns with effectively no fear of detection. Much like Deus Ex and Splinter Cell and various other games with good stealth mechanics, the guards follow extremely regular patrol patterns so players can patiently memorize them and either evade or stalk their way forward.

He's actually wrong about this, or at least intentionally misleading. Thief has many instances without "darkened corners", where you can't see shit from any "safe" position, and need to either orient yourself based on sound, or meticulously piece together the patrol pattern by observing it from multiple vantage points. The first floor of the mansion in The Sword is an example that immediately comes to mind.

Safely peeking around corners in third person usually provides a ton of information immediately, and is awfully boring from a gameplay standpoint. Having to reside in shadows to get a clear view of what's happening is much more interesting and fun, and forces the player to actually understand the level layout, as opposed to scooting from corner to corner like an idiot.

 

[dnf]

Honest question for the BROS defending the Thief games over SC:

Did you actually played Chaos Theory ?

Defending? wut? The consensus is that Thief is better, so it is you who must defend SC:CT. For the record, i played the SC trilogy and Chaos Theory is p. good, on par with Metal Gear Solid series

 

[dnf]

Well...that doesn't really answer my question. For instance, in MGS2, in the prologue Tanker chapter, the game lets you know that your shadow can be detected by enemies. I'm wondering if the supposedly better stealth games have this feature?

I think it's funny you're focusing on that specific thing as the bearer of great stealth. Anyway no, I don't think Splinter Cell, Hitman or Dishonored for that matter have the AI notice shadow changes.

Also Metal Gear sucks.

Metal Gear merit to the stealth genre is the AI. MGS2 got one of the best AI around.

 

[Carrion]

Safely peeking around corners in third person usually provides a ton of information immediately, and is awfully boring from a gameplay standpoint. Having to reside in shadows to get a clear view of what's happening is much more interesting and fun, and forces the player to actually understand the level layout, as opposed to scooting from corner to corner like an idiot.

This.

Unlike Sawyer seems to suggest, there's also a huge gap between being able observe guard patterns without a risk and having to go in completely blind. In Thief there are instances where you can't sit in one place indefinitely but where it is possible to get a quick peek around a corner to see what lies ahead before you are seen. This gives you enough information to, for example, know whether there's a guard standing in one place staring right towards your direction (which Sawyer used as an example in one of his posts) but you may still have to rely on sound to be able to time your movements right, or find another vantage point to get a better view of the area. You never have to rely on pure guesswork, even when there are no convenient shadows around.

 

[Infinitron]

Josh is thinking like an RPG designer used to designing abstracted stealth systems.

"In a stealth game, the player should have a way to look around corners and see what's going on. Therefore, the stealth system should have a built-in way to do that. Therefore third person is teh great."

But finding out the best/safest way to look around the corner is part of the gameplay - it's not an automatic systemic benefit players are entitled to.

 

[Ninjerk]

Josh is thinking like an RPG designer used to designing abstracted stealth systems.

"In a stealth game, the player should have a way to look around corners and see what's going on. Therefore, the stealth system should have a built-in way to do that. Therefore third person is teh great."

But finding out the best/safest way to look around the corner is part of the gameplay - it's not an automatic systemic benefit players are entitled to.

Well, modern big budget developers disagree.

 

[Carrion]

But finding out the best/safest way to look around the corner is part of the gameplay - it's not an automatic systemic benefit players are entitled to.

Thief's philosophy is a bit different from Human Revolution or Splinter Cell, though. In Thief the levels are more open and the guards move around more, so the challenge might come from exploring an entire floor of a building whereas in HR and SC the areas are often more isolated and each room basically offers a challenge of its own.

 

[skacky]

Yes, indeed. Chaos Theory's level design is exactly like that. You basically have various rooms/areas with several challenges inside them, but the levels themselves are very linear. Clear the room/sneak past the AIs and proceed to the next area. DX:HR also offers set pieces you can instantly recognize, so stealth is made even easier. Dishonored is also guilty of that, though it uses less set pieces and is way more open than Chaos Theory/DX:HR.

Thief is still the king though.

 

[Cholo]

Ok not to popamole but can somebody concisely describe what made Chaos Theory better than original SC or Double Agent? The level design wasn't that much better, and DA implemented C&C in regards to the final mission.

Josh hates Double Agent because stealth became a binary switch (either you're detected or you're not) and they used red and green which made it impossible for him to play because he's colorblind.

Having given it some thought, the things that stood out for me in CT were the multiplayer and the reactive Amon Tobin soundtrack- I don't remember the AI being astoundingly challenging in any of the iterations. The two biggest parts of a good SC game for me were always the level design first, and then the gadgets. The only really cool gadget they added was the knife, and the level design for the most part was good but never great. The Seoul mission was a really cool idea but felt lackluster in implementation, and there was never a 'Life of the Party' moment like in T2.

Honestly, the level I remember the most from all those games was the Train mission from Panndora, and that game was awful.

 

[tuluse]

You were supposed to use your ears to tell if there was a guard around the corner in Thief. I think every single thing made some kind of noise if you were patient.

Thief also had leaning, so you didn't need to have 3rd person cheating.

Did you like not read http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235201156538704283 or http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235284823680222305
It didn't need "3rd person cheating" because you had "hide in the shadows" cheating.

You're still limited by the first person view point, and not every single corner was dark enough.

 

[7h30n]

What about Tenchu?

But, yeah... Second best to Thief is Thief II :D

Anyways, I don't feel like opening another stealth games thread but I was wondering, does anyone know of any top down stealth games (other than Metal Gear and Monaco) ?

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

What about Tenchu?

But, yeah... Second best to Thief is Thief II :D

Anyways, I don't feel like opening another stealth games thread but I was wondering, does anyone know of any top down stealth games (other than Metal Gear and Monaco) ?

Hotline Miami.

 

[MetalCraze]

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is very much it
If only it had open non-linear levels not limited by majestic 64 MBs of RAM it would've easily been on par with Thief

 

[DalekFlay]

@Roguey, do you have opinions of your own, or are you a puppet with Sawyer's hand up your ass?

There is no puppet, only the puppeteer.

 

[A user named cat]

What about Tenchu?

The Tenchu games were pretty awesome from what I remember, regardless of how they'd rank against Thief or SC mechanically. Didn't the second game have a level editor too? I know one of them did and I had a blast with it back in the day.

 

[JarlFrank]

The second best stealth game next to the Thief series is The Dark Mod.

 

[q3d7]

Death to Spies. PS2 Doulble Agent was better than pc Chaos Theory. Still shit though.

 

[tuluse]

So I've only played Pandora Tomorrow, how does it compare to Chaos Theory?