Scorpia and Baldur's Gate, a discussion from 2006

[Johannes]

If you can't see ANY benefit RTwP has over TB, the problem is in your tunnel visioned head.

 

[Lurker King]

i don't think there is any possibility of an RPG being in any way significant if it is not turn-based.

If you had ever played Dungeon Master, you wouldn't be engaging in such hyperbolic silliness. Plus Chaos Strikes Back, UU: The Stygian Abyss, Daggerfall, Planescape: Torment, Morrowind, the Souls series (albeit borderline RPGs), and Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen. With the notable exception of PS:T, which was unfortunately saddled with Bioware's execrable RTwP system, not only would none of these games have benefited from being turn-based, but it would have invalidated their entire design.

Real time can be interesting, but real time with pause is always atrocious.

 

[Siobhan]

What is Dungeon Master but a casualized take on tile-based dungeoneering using a party of adventurers?

A damn fine puzzle game with exploration and resource management. Most people who aren't completely retarded would say that makes it a game worth playing.

Seriously, I share your dislike for the codex fetish of C&C, story, setting, lore, etc, but with your extremism you have quickly breezed past reasoned dissent into unintentional self-mockery.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

RTwP probably oughta be more like 7,62 High Calibre than BG, honestly.

 

[Ulminati]

If you can't see ANY benefit RTwP has over TB, the problem is in your tunnel visioned head.

RTWP doesn't offer any benefit over TB that Phase-based/simultaneous turns a.la. Frozen Synapse doesn't do better.

 

[felipepepe]

RTwP probably oughta be more like 7,62 High Calibre than BG, honestly.

^This.

BG's RTwP is focused on accessibility and being dynamic (aka fit short attention span).
7.62 on the other hand, was designed to deliver realistic simulataneos combat. The devs specifically said they think stuff like Attacks of Opportunity are bullshit, a proof of how artificial Turn-Based combat is, and made a game where time is key, and decisions must all be taken on the fly, counting every second.

 

[Lurker King]

a proof of how artificial Turn-Based combat is, and made a game where time is key, and decisions must all be taken on the fly, counting every second.

Is it realistic to PAUSE THE FUCKING REALITY every time you want to make a decision? RTwP apologists using realism as an argument. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Now I read everything. The more realistic system is real time. In fact, it would be a permadeath real time system based on attrition. Turn-based combat system is artificial, but super tactical because it allows you to make decisions that are more complex. Real time is more realistic, but less tactical. RTwP is the worse combat system because it has the worst of both worlds: neither the tactical advantages of turn-based neither the realism of real time.

 

[cherry blossom]

RTwP probably oughta be more like 7,62 High Calibre than BG, honestly.

^This.

BG's RTwP is focused on accessibility and being dynamic (aka fit short attention span).
7.62 on the other hand, was designed to deliver realistic simulataneos combat. The devs specifically said they think stuff like Attacks of Opportunity are bullshit, a proof of how artificial Turn-Based combat is, and made a game where time is key, and decisions must all be taken on the fly, counting every second.

The funny thing is that it just isn't an enjoyable alternative.

By now, how many devs have we seen to claim that this or that about TB is bullshit and that they will make a "better" system? And how many of those turned out to be even remotely enjoyable?

When your starting point is that TB itself sucks and you will do a lot better, you are bound to fail because morons who fail to appreciate TB tend to have notions of grandiose about superceding it without any understanding of the fundamental abstractness of game design in general.

 

[octavius]

In theory controlling a party in real time, or using RTwP in a games based on AD&D sounds like bad ideas, but in practice Dungeon Master/Chaos Strikes Back and the Baldur's Gate game are among the best games I've played.

I guess it helps being adaptable and not sticking too much to principles. Although to be fair I have my own principles when it comes to 3rd person view instead of 1PP.

I also guess the reason that the BG games rub the CDO/autist/"aspie" people the wrong way, is that you can not have the complete control in combat.

 

[Theldaran]

A turn-based BG... nope, I don't see how that's possible:

- You had to go up 6 levels
- Hence, you had to fight a lot of enemies
- Back when there was no info on the game and no internet, it was all exploration of unknown areas, anything could come up
- I think that the turn-based combat would have possibly affected exploration negatively: with RTwP, you venture into an area, you're ambushed by wolves, you're fucked. But that counts as exploration. With turns, I'm not so sure this can be replicated.
- A turn-based game would have less encounters (also, less trash mobs, certainly) lest it would drag forever. BG was a long game, fat with content at the time of release.

For me, turn-based done right is something along the lines of Fire Emblem, and that's dubbed SRPG (S for Strategy). Or, Phantasy Star, whose quality was amazing in most of its parts.

You can take some amount of action in the gameplay without it turning into a dumbed down action game. Still, BG was clearly influenced by Diablo -which was, by the way, a great game in its time. Is Diablo a dumbed down game? My answer is no. It just exploited the technical capabilites available at the time, to deliver a really good action game impossible before. Diablo (and not BG) changed CRPG forever.

Of course, Diablo is not as complex mechanically as other games (3 classes, kek), as it's more action and loot oriented, but that doesn't mean it's automatically inferior.

What about the Ravenloft games? Those were less RPG-ish than BG, implemented the Doom engine, and were great games for its era. It also helps that SSI is waaaay more well regarded than Bioware is today.

 

[pippin]

- You had to go up 6 levels
- Hence, you had to fight a lot of enemies
- Back when there was no info on the game and no internet, it was all exploration of unknown areas, anything could come up
- I think that the turn-based combat would have possibly affected exploration negatively: with RTwP, you venture into an area, you're ambushed by wolves, you're fucked. But that counts as exploration. With turns, I'm not so sure this can be replicated.
- A turn-based game would have less encounters (also, less trash mobs, certainly) lest it would drag forever. BG was a long game, fat with content at the time of release.

Play Pool of Radiance please

 

[Theldaran]

- You had to go up 6 levels
- Hence, you had to fight a lot of enemies
- Back when there was no info on the game and no internet, it was all exploration of unknown areas, anything could come up
- I think that the turn-based combat would have possibly affected exploration negatively: with RTwP, you venture into an area, you're ambushed by wolves, you're fucked. But that counts as exploration. With turns, I'm not so sure this can be replicated.
- A turn-based game would have less encounters (also, less trash mobs, certainly) lest it would drag forever. BG was a long game, fat with content at the time of release.

Play Pool of Radiance please

What about the graphics?

 

[Fowyr]

What about the graphics?

It's EGA. 320x200. What do you need more?

 

[pippin]

What about the graphics?

It's EGA. 320x200. What do you need more?

 

[CryptRat]

For me, turn-based done right is something along the lines of Fire Emblem, and that's dubbed SRPG (S for Strategy). Or, Phantasy Star, whose quality was amazing in most of its parts.

Wut? Turn-based D&D (KoTC on the top) is infinitely better than Bioware garbage.

Is Diablo a dumbed down game?

Yes

 

[Theldaran]

What about the graphics?

It's EGA. 320x200. What do you need more?

Sorry, but I don't think comparing with a game from 10 years before (counting from 1998) makes any sense. The leap on technology is immense, therefore the devs feel entitled to try new things with the new things available.

About which game is better, it's a matter of taste, mostly. Likewise a Sonic game released today can't be compared to the original, even if I like the original better.

The argument can be made that investment on graphics further dumbs down the games, but hey, what can we do. We all prefer good looking games do we?

PS: I wasn't saying that turn-based is bad, or RTwP is good. I just said that BG with turns is a completely different game, possibly stealing away some good qualities it had. But this is a pointless discussion as we'll never know.

 

[Fowyr]

Sorry, but I don't think comparing with a game from 10 years before (counting from 1998) makes any sense.

Yup, PoR much better game than BG.

The leap on technology is immense, therefore the devs feel entitled to try new things with the new things available.

"Technology" they say. Darklands was RTwP before BG. And it was much earlier.

About which game is better, it's a matter of taste, mostly. Likewise a Sonic game released today can't be compared to the original, even if I like the original better.

Bullshit.

The argument can be made that investment on graphics further dumbs down the games, but hey, what can we do.

Don't play dumbed down shit. Problem solved.

 

[pippin]

The points you made are actually the best features of Pool of Radiance. Even without context that thing makes me excited, since it's a challenge, and it tells me I get to do stuff on my own. Baldur's Gate is undeniably dumbed down in comparison, for an "effectist" approach instead of actual crpg game making. Dark Sun had most if not all the features BG1 had but it's better mostly because it's turn based.

 

[CryptRat]

Dark Sun does everything right.

 

[Theldaran]

I think BG made its shit alright, game system with some complexity (well, it's D&D) while allowing some action approach. Which was also inherited from the engine, that was meant for a strategy game. It was not the pinnacle of Creation, but at the time it was an exciting game.

Also, it seems that the classics can't be replicated, now we have to get games appropriate for this era. And I kinda agree this is a dumbed down era, but still good things can be found. If you stick to the classics though... no luck. Taking the example of Pool of Radiance, I don't think it can exactly be replicated with full 3D graphics. Not only would the experience change, but probably some qualities must be cut out. Anyway, different game eras, different states of the art, different states of the market, games aren't the same, of course.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Dark Sun does everything right.

Even its bugs were magnificent!

 

[Fowyr]

Also, it seems that the classics can't be replicated, now we have to get games appropriate for this era.

Knights of the Chalice. :yawn:

And I kinda agree this is a dumbed down era, but still good things can be found. If you stick to the classics though... no luck.

No, you always could dig deeper and finally play something like Demon's Winter or Shard of Spring.

Taking the example of Pool of Radiance, I don't think it can exactly be replicated with full 3D graphics. Not only would the experience change, but probably some qualities must be cut out.

Don't use full 3D. Problem is solved again. Also it's not real problem. Just don't forget to implement grid movement.

 

[Theldaran]

Yeah, but when you've played all the fabled games of yore, what then?

It's the same effect with music. In rock music, the classics are in most cases better, and everything has been done before (plus Loudness Wars is something to consider), but I want to get modern bands from time to time. Mostly they're local bands and just rehash an old style with minor alterations, because as an industry, rock music is imploding. See any similarities?

 

[Lhynn]

RTwP is fucked up by nature.

No it isnt, its real time strategy with a pause function added to cope with complexity. I liked microing stuff in starcraft, C&C red alert, or KKND or age of empires, or dune II or a whole lot of other RTS that were very enjoyable. The problem with RTwP is the lack of understanding of this concept, you end up with games like darklands or sits, or even worse, PoE.

A thing of beauty? You have no aesthetic taste, Lhynn.. ToEE's combat system is a thing of beauty.

Aye, it was. Sadly ToEE encounter design was so bad that i still rather go through any of the big battles in BG2 than anything in ToEE.

You don't need hexes for TB to be good. See Jagged Alliance 2 and ToEE.

Sure you dont, it helps tho.

 

[Fowyr]

Yeah, but when you've played all the fabled games of yore, what then?

Then I would play them again, silly. Works fine for me.
I've finished PoR three times, Fallout 2 five times, Ultima Underworld four times, Dark Sun three times...