RPS interview with David Gaider on romances and Beamdog's failed attempts at Baldur's Gate III and a Planescape Torment sequel

[Roguey]

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/da...ompanions-and-his-cancelled-planescape-sequel

Gaider actually disliked romances:

“It’s incredibly weird for anybody who knows me that I’ve become the romance guy,” David Gaider tells me. “I’m the least romantic guy. Especially when I get to the characters saying ‘I love you’ to each other…” Gaider mimes the sickliness of the scene and his own horrified response. “Apparently I did it so well on Baldur’s Gate II that James Ohlen kept handing me this stuff. And, god, I hated it so much.”
...
“James Ohlen came up with this idea of romances as something cool to try as a lark, not even thinking that they would be noticed much,” Gaider says. “I was just happy to be along for the ride. We had four romances and I did three of them, and that was really just Lukas Kristjanson and I sitting down, figuring out time-based conversation triggers so that your relationship grows.”

He was also the Chris Avellone of Bioware:

But Gaider’s new career gathered speed quickly. Baldur’s Gate II’s lead designer, James Ohlen, loved the work he was producing and the rate he was producing it at. “They called me 'The Machine' back then, because I wrote so quickly,” Gaider says. “Baldur’s Gate II had 1.2 million words in total, and I think I ended up writing about half just on my own.”

Zevran from Dragon Age Origins was originally meant to be gay but Bioware thought that was too niche and insisted on bisexuality:

“It’s hard, especially for the younger audience today, to think of what it was like back then in the early 00s,” he adds. “Even when we started Dragon: Age Origins, on many levels, there was a lot of trepidation. I had a character I wanted to make gay - Zevran, the assassin. And they were still going, ‘Oh, well, you know that’s a really small part of the audience, so if we’re going to do that much content for it let’s make him bisexual at least’. So he can do double duty.”

Beampup tried and failed at BG3:

The solution was to depart Bioware, Gaider’s home for 17 years. At the gym, he met another of the studio’s co-founders, Trent Oster - who by that time had set up Beamdog and put out the remasters of Baldur’s Gate and Icewind Dale. Gaider joined up as creative director, and helped pitch a pre-Larian version of Baldur’s Gate III to Wizards Of The Coast. “We didn't really think we would get that,” he says. “But we took a shot at it.”

Beamdog's cancelled Planescape game was in fact a Torment sequel. Bullet. dodged.

The project Gaider really wanted to make was a sequel to Planescape: Torment. “We flew down to Wizards Of The Coast and they loved it,” he says. The plan was to have events in 5th Edition Planescape coincide with those of the game - and to incorporate elements of Gaider’s story into the tabletop setting. “I came up with what I felt was a really strong story and a follow-up,” he says. “We’d done all the documentation and made all the characters, started the plots. We were ready to start writing. And then it fell apart. My impression was always that the funding just wasn’t there - Wizards Of The Coast wanted it to come from a third party.”

Gaider is aware it would have caused a shitstorm:

“When I think of it today, I wonder how well that would have gone over,” Gaider says. “Because the fans of Planescape: Torment are the most hardcore of the hardcore. Would they want their baby to be touched by the guy who did the romance stuff?”

I know Chris Avellone would no longer want this dishonorable coward sullying his work.

 

[luj1]

none cares about romances except extreme RL introverts

romances are pure decline

 

[Poseidon00]

You know what, i'm sad a Torment sequel was dodged. Would it be a pale, horrific mockery of the original? Of course. But god damn it, it would have been another game in the IE engine.

 

[Infinitron]

Too bad they didn't ask him about Beamdog's Weird West game: https://rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10876

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

I can believe his comments about the BG2 romances. They have that feeling of dispassionate craft about them, which is probably why they're passable, especially compared to more modern fare created by those who actually want to write stuff like that, that being their only qualification.

Also, reading about the plans for Torment sequel gave me a moment of pure, atavistic dread. Dodged-a-sabertooth-tiger kind of stuff.

 

[StrongBelwas]

You know what, i'm sad a Torment sequel was dodged. Would it be a pale, horrific mockery of the original? Of course. But god damn it, it would have been another game in the IE engine.

I'm not seeing anything in the interview that says it would have been IE, and I recall Beamdog hiring for Unity/Unreal back then. Making it 5E would have required a lot of changes anyway. This wouldn't be a Siege of Dragonspear situation.

 

[xan]

Just think: In a parallel universe, as we speak, the codex is discussing the finer points of Planescape: Torment 2. Presented by Beamdog. Written by David Gaider.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

The bit about BG3 being made by Beamdog was kinda the plan, which is why they were developing the EEs. It made sense to rebuild hype around the series to end things with a bang, but it's likely that Larian had been in talks with WoTC since DOS' release.

You know what, i'm sad a Torment sequel was dodged. Would it be a pale, horrific mockery of the original? Of course. But god damn it, it would have been another game in the IE engine.

I'm not seeing anything in the interview that says it would have been IE, and I recall Beamdog hiring for Unity/Unreal back then. Making it 5E would have required a lot of changes anyway. This wouldn't be a Siege of Dragonspear situation.

I think those positions were for an unrelated project, an original Beamdog game.

 

[NecroLord]

David Gayder?
Never heard of her.

 

[scytheavatar]

The bit about BG3 being made by Beamdog was kinda the plan, which is why they were developing the EEs. It made sense to rebuild hype around the series to end things with a bang, but it's likely that Larian had been in talks with WoTC since DOS' release.

Officially from Sven, he approached WoTC after DOS's release and told them to consider letting Larian make BG3, but it was only when DOS2 was about to be released that WoTC came back to him and begged him to make BG3. I am inclined to believe that there are people in WoTC who had a good relationship with Beamdog and was hoping they could make BG3, but eventually it became obvious that Beamdog is not capable enough for the job.

That, or they didn't want to pay for BG3 and the idea of having Larian take up all the risk is attractive as Larian was rich after the success of the two DOS games.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

The bit about BG3 being made by Beamdog was kinda the plan, which is why they were developing the EEs. It made sense to rebuild hype around the series to end things with a bang, but it's likely that Larian had been in talks with WoTC since DOS' release.

Officially from Sven, he approached WoTC after DOS's release and told them to consider letting Larian make BG3, but it was only when DOS2 was about to be released that WoTC came back to him and begged him to make BG3. I am inclined to believe that there are people in WoTC who had a good relationship with Beamdog and was hoping they could make BG3, but eventually it became obvious that Beamdog is not capable enough for the job.

That, or they didn't want to pay for BG3 and the idea of having Larian take up all the risk is attractive as Larian was rich after the success of the two DOS games.

Well, the fact that both DOS games were big hits kinda made Wotc realize the awful track record that DND games had in the last few years. They needed a big hit for the franchise. I don't know if Pathfinder being well received by the community had something to do with it, but Beamdog was certainly way too fucking small and lacking enough talent to go through the task of making a BG3.

I wonder if that influenced the way Wotc treated Beamdog too. There's plenty of hardcoded business rules you have to abide by, but there's bugs in the EEs even after an entire decade of them being released to the public.

 

[scytheavatar]

There was a sense that publishers might be wary of Planescape: Torment, which was a slow-burn cult success, and that a sequel might not sell. “I question that to this day,” Gaider says. “Planescape: Torment has this reputation as one of the best RPG games of all time. I think something coming out that built on it has a lot of potential to gain notice.”

Reputation from who? Seems that trying to appeal to the codex crowd and no one else is a bad idea. The reality is that the Planescape IP has always been niche within D&D and there are dozens of projects within D&D which makes more sense than another Planescape game. Not to mention Planescape Torment has a reputation as one of the best written RPG games but actual gameplay is trash.

 

[vitellus]

Beamdog's cancelled Planescape game was in fact a Torment sequel. Bullet. dodged.

...the funding just wasn’t there - Wizards Of The Coast wanted it to come from a third party.”

That, or they didn't want to pay for BG3 and the idea of having Larian take up all the risk is attractive as Larian was rich after the success of the two DOS games

why take the risk when you can just share the credit?

 

[Sentinel]

Kind of weird to hate romances and writing them but then every character you write is defined by their sexuality and not their personality.

 

[Shaki]

Thank god Beamdog didn't get BG3, these retards should be forbidden from touching anything RPG-related ever again.

 

[Erebus]

Another Planescape game could have been great. A sequel almost certainly wouldn't have been.

Though BG2 was the game that started the fashion of romanceable companions in CRPGs, much less developed romances could be found in earlier CRPGs. In Dark Queen of Krynn, a male PC could save a female NPC from a curse, and there would afterwards be a short-lived relationship between the two (the woman would on several occasions appear and offer a magical item to her savior in exchange for a kiss). I've heard that a romance is also possible in Treasures of the Savage Frontier, but I haven't played the game yet.

 

[Old Hans]

ohh poor David he hated romances so much he was forced to do 3 of the 4 romances

 

[La vie sexuelle]

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/da...ompanions-and-his-cancelled-planescape-sequel

Gaider actually disliked romances:

“It’s incredibly weird for anybody who knows me that I’ve become the romance guy,” David Gaider tells me. “I’m the least romantic guy. Especially when I get to the characters saying ‘I love you’ to each other…” Gaider mimes the sickliness of the scene and his own horrified response. “Apparently I did it so well on Baldur’s Gate II that James Ohlen kept handing me this stuff. And, god, I hated it so much.”
...
“James Ohlen came up with this idea of romances as something cool to try as a lark, not even thinking that they would be noticed much,” Gaider says. “I was just happy to be along for the ride. We had four romances and I did three of them, and that was really just Lukas Kristjanson and I sitting down, figuring out time-based conversation triggers so that your relationship grows.”

I never particularly appreciated the way Baldur's Gate was written. I really like these two games, but in terms of style, it is at most a non-obtrusive attempt at archaization by North Americans. Like the rest of their fantasy from that period.

He was also the Chris Avellone of Bioware:

But Gaider’s new career gathered speed quickly. Baldur’s Gate II’s lead designer, James Ohlen, loved the work he was producing and the rate he was producing it at. “They called me 'The Machine' back then, because I wrote so quickly,” Gaider says. “Baldur’s Gate II had 1.2 million words in total, and I think I ended up writing about half just on my own.”

"Fast" does not mean "good", as anyone who has tried to read his books knows.

Zevran from Dragon Age Origins was originally meant to be gay but Bioware thought that was too niche and insisted on bisexuality:

“It’s hard, especially for the younger audience today, to think of what it was like back then in the early 00s,” he adds. “Even when we started Dragon: Age Origins, on many levels, there was a lot of trepidation. I had a character I wanted to make gay - Zevran, the assassin. And they were still going, ‘Oh, well, you know that’s a really small part of the audience, so if we’re going to do that much content for it let’s make him bisexual at least’. So he can do double duty.”

"It can be difficult for Soviet youth to understand that a person can have personal freedom. Unfortunately, there were times when the Soviet state did not decide for us what is good."

Beampup tried and failed at BG3:

The solution was to depart Bioware, Gaider’s home for 17 years. At the gym,

Is this story real?

he met another of the studio’s co-founders, Trent Oster - who by that time had set up Beamdog and put out the remasters of Baldur’s Gate and Icewind Dale. Gaider joined up as creative director, and helped pitch a pre-Larian version of Baldur’s Gate III to Wizards Of The Coast. “We didn't really think we would get that,” he says. “But we took a shot at it.”

He probably forgot to mention how much "Siege of Dragonspear" has sunk Beamdog in the eyes of anyone who counts on profits, or at least has some taste.

Beamdog's cancelled Planescape game was in fact a Torment sequel. Bullet. dodged.

The project Gaider really wanted to make was a sequel to Planescape: Torment. “We flew down to Wizards Of The Coast and they loved it,” he says. The plan was to have events in 5th Edition Planescape coincide with those of the game - and to incorporate elements of Gaider’s story into the tabletop setting. “I came up with what I felt was a really strong story and a follow-up,” he says. “We’d done all the documentation and made all the characters, started the plots. We were ready to start writing. And then it fell apart. My impression was always that the funding just wasn’t there - Wizards Of The Coast wanted it to come from a third party.”

Oh, I know very well what it would look like - the players were an outsider again, maybe even a new Nameless One, but this time the focus would be on the "personal story" exposing not so much the world and its internal issues, but soap opera dilemmas.

Gaider is aware it would have caused a shitstorm:

“When I think of it today, I wonder how well that would have gone over,” Gaider says. “Because the fans of Planescape: Torment are the most hardcore of the hardcore. Would they want their baby to be touched by the guy who did the romance stuff?”

He hasn't done anything yet, but the fans are already to blame.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

The story might as well be real, since Beamdog were being touted as developers for a lot of DND games at some point.

 

[Infinitron]

He hasn't done anything yet, but the fans are already to blame.

I think it's hilarious that Gaider was probably thinking of Codexers when he said that. Still haunting Dgaider's mind all these years later.

But it's kind of a weird statement since PS:T had romances too?

 

[La vie sexuelle]

He hasn't done anything yet, but the fans are already to blame.

I think it's hilarious that Gaider was probably thinking of Codexers when he said that. Still haunting Dgaider's mind all these years later.

But it's kind of a weird statement since PS:T had romances too?

Style is key, Infi. All The Nameless did was discover the world by discovering himself (not the opposite!). Nameless does not romance, he develops himself through relationships with women.

 

[GrainWetski]

Thank god Beamdog didn't get BG3, these retards should be forbidden from touching anything RPG-related ever again.

Yeah, the game would've had trannies and beastality and everyone would be gay. Thank God that didn't happen.

 

[Roguey]

ohh poor David he hated romances so much he was forced to do 3 of the 4 romances

There were supposed to be six romances with Kristjanson doing Jaheira, Aerie, and Viconia, and Gaider doing Anomen, Valygar, and Haer'Dalis but Kristjanson turned Jaheira into a massive clusterfuck so they pulled Gaider off the other two men to work on the other women since they knew who the majority of their players were. Meanwhile Jaheira was so buggy that Ohlen said they were going to cut the romance entirely if they got one more bug report so QA just stopped reporting Jaheira bugs in solidarity so the game would ship with it.

 

[Maxie]

none cares about romances except extreme RL introverts

romances are pure decline

i find them cute and endearing

 

[0sacred]

It's hard to accept something as annoying as romances happened as an afterthought and experiment. There must be some grand evil design behind it.