RPG's and the essence of tabletop roleplaying

[Xathrodox86]

Some of them. I still preffer PnP.

 

[Ismaul]

I've said monocle RPG, not every RPG. I mean do we really have to argue that something written over moths by well paid professionals will end-up better written than something that was written in a week by a random person?

And I responded to that earlier.

The only game writing that can't be done better by a game master is Torment / MotB. And that's not because game masters suck, but because that kind of writing doesn't fit in face-to-face games with multiple persons. PnP RPGs are not about writing, they're about talking.

Like I said, Torment-style writing's overly verbose and not natural. When you're with people, unless you're debating over a position, you don't usually spew walls of texts. Also that's bad GMing: you're not here to speak shit to players, it's their story. That kind of dialogue is also aimed at one player only, so in doing that you'd be leaving the rest of the players behind, making them wait. GMing like a Torment game is being a shit GM.

But that doesn't mean you can't have the same kind of themes and reflection, only it's not only the GM that's got to provide that shit, players have to be in on it too. Players have to want to spend their time in philosophical discussion, otherwise that really won't work. A good GM doesn't make his NPCs fart some walls of text, he presents a dilemma / philosophical problem that will be debated between the players, not NPC to singular player.

 

[buzz]

Not to mention having a D&D session with Avellone and McComb and everyone comes prepared a bit beforehand, that could get pretty interesting

 

[Cynicus]

Did you just make that in MS Paint? You have skills.

LOL. Nah, it's just some 'net flotsam I picked up. I can't draw worth a shit with a mouse. The idea of a gangsta Codex did give me inspiration for some Ps doodling, though:

Spoiler

 

[gestalt11]

cRPGs are not a replacement for PnP. You want to hang out with your computer instead of your friends? Wait maybe some people shouldn't answer that.

 

[Azarkon]

CRPGs engage you differently than PnP RPGs.

PnP RPGs live and die by the social interaction between you, the DM, and whoever else is playing. It's a party game in both senses of the word, and people tend to approach it the same way they do other party games.

CRPGs, on the other hand, are personal experiences. The interaction is strictly between you and the game. There is no socialization involved. You approach it as you would a book/movie, and it affects you in the same way those mediums do, with the added bonus of interactivity, which simply further the immersion when it's done well.

Think playing Smash Bros with your friends vs. playing Witcher 3 by yourself. How do you even begin to equate these two activities?

The best analogy with PnP RPGs is actually MMORPGs, not CRPGs.

MMORPGs are basically PnP RPGs without the flexibility of the imagination.

 

[Keldryn]

MMORPGs are basically PnP RPGs without the flexibility of the imagination.

Plus annoying twits who you can't just kick out of your house when you get tired of dealing with them.

 

[worldsmith]

True freedom would imply some sort action that transcends the limits that are imposed to you.

So you're saying in real life we can never have true freedom because we can't transcend the laws of nature?

Perhaps you were trying to say cRPGs would be better if they were more simulation and AI and less script.

 

[Serious_Business]

True freedom would imply some sort action that transcends the limits that are imposed to you.

So you're saying in real life we can never have true freedom because we can't transcend the laws of nature?

Perhaps you were trying to say cRPGs would be better if they were more simulation and AI and less script.

The laws of society! Revolution!

Usually cRPGs with "simulation" feel impersonal and mechanical, so I doubt it'd be a solution. You still want to keep the narration parts, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Lurker King]

I ask this question because it seems that many of them that I have played can't quite capture the essence of tabletop roleplaying. It is hard to find a truly open world cRPG with the depth of their predecessors. There are cRPGs with good mechanics, sure, but many are quite linear, with a thin veneer of freedom. Should we rate these games based on their own merits, or how they compare to their older cousins, pen and paper roleplaying games?

Go play Age of Decadence and then you tell me about cRPGs being “quite linear”.

 

[Lurker King]

PnP advantages

- More freedom: in theory you can do everything allowed by your skills.

- You can count on a team of real people to role-play.


cRPG advantages

- Less freedom: you don’t have to worry about team members doing retarded shit that can ruin the whole campaign.

- You don’t have to depend on the availability of players and game masters to play.

- You are not subject to the lack of imagination, whims and irrational moral prejudices of the game master.

- You don’t have to throw a fucking dice every single minute.

- You can save. If you die, you don’t lose everything you worked for.


cRPGs won hands down.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

somthing something

I agree with this. I played much more PnP when I was younger (12 to 18 or 19), and I still find computer games more enjoyable OVERALL. Of course since you interact with real people in PnP, my best moments come from that; but because of reasons like availability and logistics (dice, saving, etc.), I quit completely PnP.

 

[Snorkack]

PnP advantages

- More freedom: in theory you can do everything allowed by your skills.

- You can count on a team of real people to role-play.


cRPG advantages

- Less freedom: you don’t have to worry about team members doing retarded shit that can ruin the whole campaign.

- You don’t have to depend on the availability of players and game masters to play.

- You are not subject to the lack of imagination, whims and irrational moral prejudices of the game master.

- You don’t have to throw a fucking dice every single minute.

- You can save. If you die, you don’t lose everything you worked for.


cRPGs won hands down.

I sincerely pity you for never having played with a decent p&p group/dm.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Tabletop RPGs can't compare to LARPing.
When you're drunk and buttnaked when your thief friend decided to rob you, and you have to track him down through the forest full of drunk dumbfucks and their little children, boy that's more immersive than throwing a dice, including the moments when knights in blue armor with small maces try to catch you.

 

[Lurker King]

I sincerely pity you for never having played with a decent p&p group/dm.

I know, my experiences were awful!

 

[Perkel]

PnP advantages

- More freedom: in theory you can do everything allowed by your skills.

- You can count on a team of real people to role-play.


cRPG advantages

- Less freedom: you don’t have to worry about team members doing retarded shit that can ruin the whole campaign.

- You don’t have to depend on the availability of players and game masters to play.

- You are not subject to the lack of imagination, whims and irrational moral prejudices of the game master.

- You don’t have to throw a fucking dice every single minute.

- You can save. If you die, you don’t lose everything you worked for.


cRPGs won hands down.

I sincerely pity you for never having played with a decent p&p group/dm.

Not really a choice for me either. Finding PnP group that isn't grease KFC motherfuckers is a challenge. Went out of window when i started to work. Trying now with 3-4 friends PnP when everybody works half of them are married is like trying to disarm bomb in middle of rave party. Doable but hella annoying to plan and execute and once you start playing it can end in hour or two because some shit can came up.

Most of my PnP was done in high school with friends.
As for GM. Yeah finding anyone doing proper GM work is already awesome...

 

[Ismaul]

I know, my experiences were awful!

It's not much, but here's a pity brofist.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

The fun of pnp comes from the human element, or how you can communicate and do fun shit with your friends. In crpgs there's none of this, and most of the times you can see things coming from miles away.

But as it was said, from a purely mechanical point of view, ToEE is probably the closest thing to the pnp experience we've ever seen so far.

I agree about ToEE, but also some of the gold box games if you can get into those, they reminded me of the PnP experience, although somewhat longer and more drawn out..

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

My best PnP experiences came between the ages of 11-15 when my brother and I lived in student housing while my mom was in medical school. There was an older kid who lived in the student housing complex, maybe 17-18 who introduced us all to D&D and wargames in general.., it was 1981....

The guy was super smart and due to his age difference and overall size commanded some respect from me and my friends so it kept the games organized, running smooth, and in line. Nobody questioned him or argued, the games hummed along and there was genuine tension and excitement in the room as he managed the games... He was amazingly creative but also very harsh and strict about the rules and die roles and had no problem killing people off, or making you take bad roles. Rolling a 17 on a character stat was a really hard and exciting event...

Once we were introduced to the game the most difficult part became convincing him to take time away from his life to DM a bunch of younger kids... but whenever we could convince him to do so it was absolutely magic, never had a better DM than that guy.

 

[Caconym]

@Ismaul


Why? Are most game master commonly on the level of professional writers?

Implying that most professional video game writers are on some kind of level.

But seriously, most game masters – if you look at what kind of PnP RPGs are the most popular – are probably completely satisfied with dungeon crawling adventures with bare-bones to none stories, as are their players. But there also exist games that support and actuate more, shall we say, sophisticated gameplay by which I mainly mean talky bits and thinky bits. Although this doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to directly compare something like Pathfinder with something like Call of Cthulhu, or anything. Different goals, different modus operandi, different audience etc.

 

[sigma1932]

cRPG advantages
- You are not subject to the lack of imagination, whims and irrational moral prejudices of the game master.

Minor nitpick, but this isn't true... it's just that the GM is replaced by the developer instead for cRPGs. They can still code the game to do illogical, malicious, or flat out retarded shit to you if they want.

 

[Innsmouth Dweller]

CRPGs engage you differently than PnP RPGs.

PnP RPGs live and die by the social interaction between you, the DM, and whoever else is playing. It's a party game in both senses of the word, and people tend to approach it the same way they do other party games.

CRPGs, on the other hand, are personal experiences. The interaction is strictly between you and the game. There is no socialization involved. You approach it as you would a book/movie, and it affects you in the same way those mediums do, with the added bonus of interactivity, which simply further the immersion when it's done well.

Think playing Smash Bros with your friends vs. playing Witcher 3 by yourself. How do you even begin to equate these two activities?

The best analogy with PnP RPGs is actually MMORPGs, not CRPGs.

MMORPGs are basically PnP RPGs without the flexibility of the imagination.

If cRPGs were the same as books or movies, I would be knitting instead. Interactivity is the only reason they are worthwhile, it's not just a bonus. It affects me more, because I'm allowed to shape protagonist (his/her story, not the world), connect to my creation in some way, unlike a book or a movie. Linearity is a domain of shooters. Engaging story is a domain of adventure games. Exploration is a domain of MUDs. Interesting combat mechanics is a must in strategy games. I don't find any appeal in those genres. cRPGs are hybrids, they adapt sophisticated combat mechanics, have an engaging story and allow some exploration, but for me those are secondary to the interactivity of the narrative, NPCs, and world in general.
I agree tho, single player cRPG is a very personal experience, unlike PnP.
PnPs provide much more interactivity simply because the "writing" is real-time, not pre-designed, still much of it depends on GM and people you play with, but I wouldn't compare it to MMORPGs. MMORPGs nowadays are more pay-to-win/grind-fest BS than engaging social activity. As CRPGs are now simplified, action-oriented interactive movies in which you have no say who your protagonist actually is, tedious exploration without any logic behind it, forced and one-dimensional, repeatable fetch-quests are filler content between action-packed cut-scenes in which the interactivity comes down to The Awesome Button.
Rawr. Sorry... and get of my lawn.

Because of time/space contraints (grown up, working, the other hemisphere, married, stuff) I don't play PnP as much as when I was a teenager, now it's board games with my husband and one or two friends (if they have the time) mostly (Arkham Horror lately), therefore my view on PnP RPGs may be skewed by nostalgia.
As well as view on CRPGs, probably because I role-played and replayed Arcanum, Fo2, and PS:T way too many times, discovering something mind-melting in each of my playthroughs.

 

[Keldryn]

It's been 20 years since I've played in a PnP game on a consistent basis for more than about 3 months at a time. That was back in university. I was able to run a game once every 3 to 4 weeks for a little while after my oldest kid was born (and my wife joined in because she craved some interaction with adults), but we still ended up taking 3-month breaks so in the end we played maybe a dozen times over a two year period.

Haven't played since just before my second kid was born (3 years ago). I've got to get my fix with CRPGs, and most of that needs to be on a mobile device so I can get my gaming in on my daily commute.

Few CRPGs can match a great PnP gaming group, but those seem to get quite rare after university or college. My friends from high school actually still play on a near weekly basis, but they're 3 hours and a ferry trip away from where I live.

 

[poetic codex]

In NWN 1 multiplayer servers, I remember some amazing table-top-like experiences. Especially if the server had a good DM who could react to the environment as people roleplayed. I remember roleplaying a monk who had a phobia for badgers and the DM possessed a badger in front of me. A hilarious conversation ensued! I don't know why game developers don't simply improve upon the NWN 1 formula: multiplayer servers with a powerful DM who could react to the players, possess npc's, spawn in creatures, modify the environment etc. Instead, they all focus on MMO's which is an entirely different experience.

 

[Shaewaroz]

WTF is this? Obviously PnP reoleplaying has much greater potential in terms or reactivity - it's purely up to DM and the players to come up with interesting scenarios and solutions. Tabletop RPGs exist only to make it easier and more rewarding for DM and the players to let their own creativity fly. People can always come up with new "What if" scenarios and there is no game on earth that could possibly offer infinite possibilities to explore all those scenarios. People who argue otherwise have obviously never played PnP RPGs in a decent group.