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Decline RPG systems different than d&d on games - let's talk about them !

solemgar

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The other day I saw someone mentioning Pillars of Eternity, and made me remember how much I despised the game system , as a bad copy of D&D.

Which other RPGs you believe they had very good ruleset or atrocious ones (non d&d).

I really liked , for example , the Ultima series (up to VI at least) or Uukrul.
 

Butter

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Obviously any game that uses a non-D&D tabletop system as its foundation (GURPS, Das Schwarze Auge, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc) could be part of the discussion.

I think it's more interesting to focus on systems that were created for CRPGs, and The Dark Heart of Uukrul is the first game that comes to mind. I like that the rings required to use more advanced spells aren't earned simply by leveling up. You can reach max level, and if you haven't found enough hearts you still won't be able to get all the rings. I like that there's a penalty for low health; a 1 HP character can't fight as effectively as someone at max HP. I like that character creation is handled through a questionnaire that's different for each class, instead of the typical rolling/point-buy.
 

Bastardchops

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Battle Brothers has an excellent character build system and probably the best weapon system I've seen in an rpg. Weapon types operate very differently.
 

solemgar

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Obviously any game that uses a non-D&D tabletop system as its foundation (GURPS, Das Schwarze Auge, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc) could be part of the discussion.

I think it's more interesting to focus on systems that were created for CRPGs, and The Dark Heart of Uukrul is the first game that comes to mind. I like that the rings required to use more advanced spells aren't earned simply by leveling up. You can reach max level, and if you haven't found enough hearts you still won't be able to get all the rings. I like that there's a penalty for low health; a 1 HP character can't fight as effectively as someone at max HP. I like that character creation is handled through a questionnaire that's different for each class, instead of the typical rolling/point-buy.
Yes absolutely. Nothing based on tabletop should be part of the discussion. I exactly meant systems designed for the games themselves
 

Bastardchops

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Obviously any game that uses a non-D&D tabletop system as its foundation (GURPS, Das Schwarze Auge, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc) could be part of the discussion.

I think it's more interesting to focus on systems that were created for CRPGs, and The Dark Heart of Uukrul is the first game that comes to mind. I like that the rings required to use more advanced spells aren't earned simply by leveling up. You can reach max level, and if you haven't found enough hearts you still won't be able to get all the rings. I like that there's a penalty for low health; a 1 HP character can't fight as effectively as someone at max HP. I like that character creation is handled through a questionnaire that's different for each class, instead of the typical rolling/point-buy.
Yes absolutely. Nothing based on tabletop should be part of the discussion. I exactly meant systems designed for the games themselves
I think too many rpg systems have an excess of uninteresting options in certain classes in some desire to make all of the classes interesting. Pillars of Eternity is like this where even fighters have as many spell like abilities as the casters. Whereas Diablo 1. The Warrior just chops things. This is better and isn't silly and egalitarian. It's more interesting to have simple classes and complex classes. This also adds to the status and mystery of magic user.
 

Modron

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The Warrior just chops things. This is better and isn't silly and egalitarian.
Been a few decades since I played Diablo 1 last but couldn't your warrior learn every spell a wizard could provided he had the required stats to do so?
 

CryptRat

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The system of Dungeon Rats works pretty well. One of the rare examples where I love a game without magic nor science and one of the only example where I love a game with small scale battles (in my favourite games battles generally put you 7 vs 25, not 4 vs 6). Granted the closest to D&D in the list yet not like D&D, sure you can always make connections, character system is not completely opposite, trading blow works quite the same and the game relies on well on point status changes too, but HP balance and (non-)progression is different and there's no big area of effect stuff. Good encounters and resource managment help the game too but unique types of weapons and overall number balance, including points of action, initiative, etc. makes a very pleasant system.

Another one I consider very unlike D&D but love anyway is the one in Voidspire Tactics and its sequels. Even trading blows work differently in this one, it's dodge + damage reduction stats, not something I would normally praise but he game works great anyway. Numbers are very low and HP progression more like in Dungeon Rats (well it increases but just a bit) and The Dark Eye than in D&D too. The system adapts very well to open exploration. Many good parts in it, amount of different, equally satisfying options is one (there are plenty of cool classes, some relatively original), interactions between elements (schocking an entire wet area ...) are another. Also this one can be played as a super balanced system where every encounter is a threat but some players here who are not me totally destroy it, that the game is breakable yet hard to break seems like the best possible compromise to me.

To be fair the system of Divinity : Original Sin 1 is one which is totally unlike D&D and would work great with weapons which are not level-based and better overall itemization, these kill the game to some extent. It's breakable too, but that is not a bad thing and part of why it's fun actually. There's a time and place for games where you do super strong things to try to deal with strong monsters earlier than you should.

The Earth Lords is an extreme case where you deal 10x10000 damages per turn at the end and that I enjoyed anyway, proof that low numbers are not everything, including in a game like this one where half of the quests can be do in any order (you have to do the other half in order). I guess The Aethra Chronicles is another game which does not quite feel like D&D but is fun anyway, I could probably mention most of the Might&Magic series as well. All of these are quite non-linear and work, so their system can't be that bad.





One thing I absolutely hate despite it ironically appearing in games I love such as Disciples of Steel and Helherron is most XP gained via a character individually getting 1 (or 2) XP each time he performs an action instead of the party gaining shared XP based on dealing with obstacles and enemies.
 

Gandalf

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InXile's Numanuma is different system. I don't remember much of it. Anybody remembers?
 

luj1

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The other day I saw someone mentioning Pillars of Eternity, and made me remember how much I despised the game system , as a bad copy of D&D.

Which other RPGs you believe they had very good ruleset or atrocious ones (non d&d).

I really liked , for example , the Ultima series (up to VI at least) or Uukrul.

For me Pillars, Tyranny and Numenera had the worst core systems
 

Tyranicon

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I'm building one now. I would say it's only very vaguely based on D&D. It mainly removes everything I don't like about D&D (underpowered martials at high levels, classes with few combat options, poor combat effectiveness scaling, etc).
 

solemgar

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Obviously any game that uses a non-D&D tabletop system as its foundation (GURPS, Das Schwarze Auge, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc) could be part of the discussion.

I think it's more interesting to focus on systems that were created for CRPGs, and The Dark Heart of Uukrul is the first game that comes to mind. I like that the rings required to use more advanced spells aren't earned simply by leveling up. You can reach max level, and if you haven't found enough hearts you still won't be able to get all the rings. I like that there's a penalty for low health; a 1 HP character can't fight as effectively as someone at max HP. I like that character creation is handled through a questionnaire that's different for each class, instead of the typical rolling/point-buy.
Yes absolutely. Nothing based on tabletop should be part of the discussion. I exactly meant systems designed for the games themselves
I think too many rpg systems have an excess of uninteresting options in certain classes in some desire to make all of the classes interesting. Pillars of Eternity is like this where even fighters have as many spell like abilities as the casters. Whereas Diablo 1. The Warrior just chops things. This is better and isn't silly and egalitarian. It's more interesting to have simple classes and complex classes. This also adds to the status and mystery of magic user.
Agree, I actually talking on the topic,
The other day I saw someone mentioning Pillars of Eternity, and made me remember how much I despised the game system , as a bad copy of D&D.

Which other RPGs you believe they had very good ruleset or atrocious ones (non d&d).

I really liked , for example , the Ultima series (up to VI at least) or Uukrul.

For me Pillars, Tyranny and Numenera had the worst core systems
Numenera is based on tabletop rpg rules, but the Numenera rpg system is not that great either , very open
 

solemgar

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I know the first Dragon Age gets lot of shit here, but I liked the system . Playing a wizard felt rewarding once you got to certain power levels and there were always plenty of combat options.
 
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anvi

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I always thought it was crazy for game developers to license anything like D&D. I never understood why they didn't just rip it off and make their own version. But I don't know much about all this. I loved EverQuest and especially Vanguard, and they used their own thing which was inspired by Diku which was a MUD era alternative to D&D. I hoped a popular alternative to D&D would become standard and people could use that for gaming, maybe open source. Only other notable ones I can remember are, "The Dark Eye". Some games used their ruleset, Drakensang, Blackguards, etc. I'd like to see more of that.

Also I was kind of rooting for Dragon Age Origins. Typical RPG but they made their own spells and abilities. It was pretty limited though, only about 5 ish spells in each spell line. And only several spell lines. If the spells are great and unique then it's not so bad, but mostly that wasn't the case. But there was enough for a 20 hour game or so, and maybe 1 replay. I just figured they spent a lot of their budget building the engine and world and lore and everything from scratch. I hoped a sequel could use all what they built and just beef up the gameplay. Instead they went another direction :C

Aarklash Legacy did a good job too. Little indie game but very well made. There was a series called Magicka which I played briefly, that seemed a nice job. Age of Wonders kinda resembles D&D but I don't think they use it. I love a MOBA called Heroes of Newerth which is almost a direct copy of DOTA2 which is very RPG ish but more action style. MOBAs are easy to hate, terrible reputation for good reason. Yet being able to smash open the ground and create a huge fissure in a long line in front of you, and it blocks other players completely... Stuff like that makes me see how dull RPGs had become.
 
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anvi

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Games should have more crazy spell interactions like what Noita does. I doubt they were the first to use that idea but it's the first time I've seen it used well and in a kind of balanced way despite being super overpowered at times. I doubt this would make sense for paper based or board games. But with computer simulating all the hard work, we should get to enjoy crazy wands and shit in video games.
 

anvi

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I don't like the Final Fantasy games but I had a lot of fun with FFT. I think most gaming nerds like me had dreams of designing their own RPG sometime. I made notes on this in my younger less jaded years, and it ended up being fun to think about. FFT got me thinking about cool classes that break away from Paladin, Warrior, Cleric, Wizard, etc. I loved the Calculator class and the Lancer and stuff. I wanted to make a game where the classes were based on European mythology, things like Molthedd and Grenwynn. (Fuck I can't even find any of that on google anymore... There used to pages of mythology of thousands of creatures like that. Google is basically empty now.)
 
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Ysaye

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Obviously any game that uses a non-D&D tabletop system as its foundation (GURPS, Das Schwarze Auge, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc) could be part of the discussion.

I think it's more interesting to focus on systems that were created for CRPGs, and The Dark Heart of Uukrul is the first game that comes to mind. I like that the rings required to use more advanced spells aren't earned simply by leveling up. You can reach max level, and if you haven't found enough hearts you still won't be able to get all the rings. I like that there's a penalty for low health; a 1 HP character can't fight as effectively as someone at max HP. I like that character creation is handled through a questionnaire that's different for each class, instead of the typical rolling/point-buy.

So Wizardry has a system that is specifically crafted to CRPG use and has been used (and slightly modified) across a number of games, it is similar/based on in some senses to D&D but in others isn't (eg. attributes randomly increase/decrease with each level, reset when changing classes, (magic user) spells automatically learnt rather than by scribing scrolls). IMO it is a system tailored to enjoyment of RPGs on computers and to that end it is a system works better than D&D for CRPGs /videogames.

I guess it is worth acknowledging that the whole bloody skill-tree system (whilst there are many variants) is basically a CRPG developed system that is very popular, if not a good system (I think of it as a Diablo system but there was something probably before that).

Then there is a broad system which could be called a "Skills Level As You Use Them" system; eg. Dungeon Master, Lands of Lore, Elder Scrolls games etc.
 

vazha

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Great non D & D systems: Prelude to Darkness, AoD / Dungeon Rats
Atrocious non D & D systems: PoEs 1-2, Tyranny
 

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