Editorial RPG Roundtable #2 at RPGVault

[Nomad]

When LucasArts wanted them to make a Star Wars CRPG, they didn't say, Hey, BioWare, use this WotC system. BioWare chose it.

I didn't know you worked for BioWare, SP.

Seriously, the BG and NWN series were because of Interplay hired BioWare to make D&D games. As for SW, if you don't work for BioWare, how do you _know_ LucasArts didn't ask for an RPG based on the WotC license?

If I were LucasArts, I'd be asking them to base the game on an established pnp RPG license for familiarity and in order to get the game done sooner.


N.

 

[Psilon]

"For familiarity?" It's Star Wars! I'd bet my shirt that the percentage of X-Box owners who are also familiar with the Star Wars D20 system is under forty percent. Probably under a third. Did they even mention D20 or Wizards in the advertisements?

If they signed the appropriate papers, they could have based KOTOR on the BEER engine and gotten the same response.

 

[Voss]

They vaguely alluded to it at times, but didn't seem to like mentioning it in public announcements. The wizards logo is probably skulking about in the background, but...

 

[Psilon]

So? I see the Bink logo on various games' title screens, but it's not like the Bink video codec is my reason for purchasing the game. Nor is Bink even a bullet point on the game's box, let alone part of an expensive 30-second TV spot.

 

[Nomad]

Yes, it's Star Wars. Yes, probably only a small percentage of people who purchased the game were familiar with d20. What's your point? Does that invalidate LucasArts wanting to take every advantage they can to encourage sales? Let's not forget that it's been a long time since LucasArts had a top-selling Star Wars game - they were probably hedging their bets.

Also, consider the fact that LucasArts may have been trying to encourage some of those D&D players of NWN, who otherwise wouldn't buy a Star Wars game, into purchasing KotOR.


N.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I'd just like to add something to the conversation - a quote from James Ohlen, Director of Design at BioWare and lead designer on Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, in his rpgvault stint describing how the d20 system came about.

When we started the initial design on Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic two years ago, one of the most important questions we had to answer was 'do we use a pre-existing rule system, or do we create our own?' If we created our own rule system, we wouldn't be hampered by any difficult to implement pen and paper rules; however, we would have to invest a significant amount of time researching a new system that wouldn't be familiar to our fan base. If we decided to go with an existing system we would have a well balanced and play tested system available to us, but we'd also have to adhere to some difficult to implement pen and paper rules. After some discussion we felt that the drawbacks of a preexisting rule system weren't all that bad, as all of our programmers and designers were very familiar with the d20 rule set. After all, we'd been working on Neverwinter Nights for some time, and had invested a lot of time properly implementing the 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons rules (upon which the d20 Star Wars system is based).

After deciding to implement the Star Wars d20 rule set, we started thinking about what kinds of adaptations we would have to make so that the rules would work within the framework of a console game.

For more on this, http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/376/376169p1.html

So im guessing that while Saint Proverbius doesn't work for Bioware, his knowledge and "i know what i'm talking about" way wins this part of the debate. Again.

That is all, thanks

 

[Nomad]

Interesting.

Note the phrases "significant amount of time researching a new system that wouldn't be familiar to our fan base" and "had invested a lot of time properly implementing the 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons rules (upon which the d20 Star Wars system is based)".

It seems as though I got the company wrong (although I'm sure LucasArts would have had some input) but I got the reasons right: familiarity and development time.

I guess SP doesn't know it _all_; he just acts like he does.

Thanks for helping me out, RP.


N.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Interesting.

Note the phrases "significant amount of time researching a new system that wouldn't be familiar to our fan base" and "had invested a lot of time properly implementing the 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons rules (upon which the d20 Star Wars system is based)".

It seems as though I got the company wrong (although I'm sure LucasArts would have had some input) but I got the reasons right: familiarity and development time.

I guess SP doesn't know it _all_; he just acts like he does.

Thanks for helping me out, RP.


N.

You're welcome.

Of course you do realize this also makes you lose some ground, because it was Bioware's decision to implement the d20 system, which was one gripe between both of you back there...

 

[Psilon]

Note the phrases "significant amount of time researching a new system that wouldn't be familiar to our fan base" and "had invested a lot of time properly implementing the 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons rules (upon which the d20 Star Wars system is based)".

It seems as though I got the company wrong (although I'm sure LucasArts would have had some input) but I got the reasons right: familiarity and development time.

Note that it's BioWare that said it, though. They've made only two non-D&D games ever. One (Shattered Steel) tanked--no pun intended--and MDK2 was an average action game. All their RPG work has involved brown-nosing TSR/Wizards. I wouldn't even be surprised if they merged with WotC in the near future.

LucasArts, by contrast, has shown no qualms toward monkeying with game mechanics. They've shoehorned Star Wars into space combat sims (X-Wing et al.), strategy games (Rebellion), RTSes (Force Commander, Galactic Battlegrounds), puzzle games (Yoda Stories), and innumerable console games (Super Star Wars, The Phantom Menace, Rogue Leader). Not all of them worked, but observe how many different rule sets they came up with.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Note the phrases "significant amount of time researching a new system that wouldn't be familiar to our fan base" and "had invested a lot of time properly implementing the 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons rules (upon which the d20 Star Wars system is based)".

Actually, there are other Star Wars role-playing game systems out there that aren't D20 based. Hell, there was a Star Wars PnP official product out years before D20 was developed. It seems to me that if you were going to make a Star Wars CRPG, using the original rule system for the PnP game would have been the wisest course of action if you want familiarity from the Star Wars fan base.

I guess SP doesn't know it _all_; he just acts like he does.

Considering I used that quote in my news item about that interview on why they chose to use the D20 system, it's hard to argue I din't know that.

Of course you do realize this also makes you lose some ground, because it was Bioware's decision to implement the d20 system, which was one gripe between both of you back there...

Nope, that part's probably over his head. I said they made the decision to use it, he said I didn't know anything about it being a decision. Then he's stupid enough to come out and say I didn't know anything about it when I even posted a news item about it last winter. Go, Nomad! Go!

In summary, just for kicks:

• As for why BioWare uses class-based systems, SP, you're wrong. It's not because they're "easier", it's because their publisher asked them to make RPGs based on pnp games that also use a class-based system. They _couldn't_ make a classless version of D&D or SW when they're using the WotC licenses.

  
  

  When LucasArts wanted them to make a Star Wars CRPG, they didn't say, Hey, BioWare, use this WotC system. BioWare chose it.

  
  

  As for SW, if you don't work for BioWare, how do you _know_ LucasArts didn't ask for an RPG based on the WotC license?

  
  

  For more on this, http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/376/376169p1.html

  
  

  I guess SP doesn't know it _all_; he just acts like he does.

See, Nomad, if you were smart, you would have admitted I was right about BioWare choosing it instead of digging yourself deeper and deeper. After all, I did know it, and you're the one who didn't know it.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

BAH-DUM-PSH!!!! :twisted:

 

[Psilon]

Have there even been licensed RPGs in the last 10 years that weren't D20- or White Wolf-based? I remember rumors of a Deadlands game, but that's all I can think of.

 

[Zetor]

If 'normal' licenses count, there's Betrayal at / Return to Krondor and Thunderscape [yeah, this was a franchise, but not a well-known one].. can't think of any others, though.

-- Z.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Have there even been licensed RPGs in the last 10 years that weren't D20- or White Wolf-based? I remember rumors of a Deadlands game, but that's all I can think of.

Yeah, GURPS was licensed for Fallout and more recently some text based MMORPGs(HAH HAH HAH). Fading Suns has been licensed to a few video games, including the upcoming Fading Suns: Noble Armada game, which is a space trader type game.

 

[Elwro]

[Yeah, GURPS was licensed for Fallout .

Correct me if I'm wrong or everyone else knows that, but didn't they cancel the license? After all, GURPS only has 4 stats, doesn't have XP levels etc.

EDIT: I just remembered that Shadows Over Riva used mechanics of Das Schwarze Auge, a German PnP RPG.

 

[Psilon]

Yeah, GURPS doesn't really count for Fallout. I was talking about rule sets, so Krondor doesn't count either. Looks like it's just Das Schwarze Auge in the Realms of Arkania series.

 

[Spazmo]

They were going to GURPS up Fallout, but then Steve Jackson complained at the level of violence in the game so he pulled his liscence.

 

[Nomad]

SP, as I said in my reply to RP, I got the company wrong. I'm not sure how you missed it, my post wasn't that long and it didn't include lots of quotes followed by meaningless editorial commentary. You also had to read right past that line in order to get to the line on which you quoted me in your next post. Still, it must be my fault (being that I'm so "stupid"), so I'll try to be more clear and write shorter posts in the future.

Again, being that I'm so "stupid", perhaps you can enlighten me. Why did you expect me to know that your comment about the source of the decision to use d20 came from BioWare when you included no link to that news item / interview in your original post?

The funniest thing is though that you seem to expect me to be insulted by your comment that I'm "stupid". Personally, I don't mind learning something new. You can call that "stupid" if you wish, I don't really care. On the other hand, SP, I get the impression that you'd rather pick an opinion and then look only at the evidence that supports it and never at anything that contradicts it. It appears like you've got some kind of aversion to being proven wrong. Would you care to elaborate?

Would you look at that! I now appear to have a shovel I'm not using. Would you like to borrow it, SP? The digging will go much faster.

Yes, there are other SW RPG systems out there or there were. West End Games is the only one I'm familiar with, but I'm pretty sure it no longer has a license to do PnP RPGs based on Star Wars (it doesn't list Star Wars in its catalogue). Therefore, I would expect using that PnP game system would somehow violate the arrangement between WotC and Lucas.

Now, James said "their fan base" referring to BioWare, not necessarily Star Wars. I expect that most Star Wars fans would buy the product regardless of the game system, but BioWare / D&D fans who aren't fans of Star Wars might be more likely to buy it if it used a familiar rules system.

Also, James said that development time was also an issue. Since the programming and design teams were already familiar with d20, it would be faster to use that system.

As I said, I got the reasons right, but the company wrong. Let me clarify, SP was right when he said that BioWare chose d20 for KotOR but I was right when I said it was for familiarity and development time reasons, not because it was easier.

Damn! I think this post is too long.


N.

 

[Psilon]

Familiarity and development time reasons mean "easier" in my book, Nomad.

Anyway, Spazmo, I'm rather surprised that violence was the reason for yanking GURPS from Fallout. Everything I had heard over at DAC and NMA implied Interplay pulled one of their notorious cockups and thereby offended Herr Jackson. (See Outrage, BioWare, Jefferson, Fallout Enforcer.) Given that the same company puts out Frag--a game that encourages players to gib each other and take their blood--I'm, as I said, a little surprised.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Again, being that I'm so "stupid", perhaps you can enlighten me. Why did you expect me to know that your comment about the source of the decision to use d20 came from BioWare when you included no link to that news item / interview in your original post?

Why did you decide to be a smartass when you didn't know that! There's the 32 cent question.

On the other hand, SP, I get the impression that you'd rather pick an opinion and then look only at the evidence that supports it and never at anything that contradicts it. It appears like you've got some kind of aversion to being proven wrong. Would you care to elaborate?

Let's see.. I said BioWare chose D20. BioWare said they chose it. Sounds more like a fact than an opinion, doesn't it?

Yes, there are other SW RPG systems out there or there were. West End Games is the only one I'm familiar with, but I'm pretty sure it no longer has a license to do PnP RPGs based on Star Wars (it doesn't list Star Wars in its catalogue). Therefore, I would expect using that PnP game system would somehow violate the arrangement between WotC and Lucas.

They still mention the d6 Star Wars on their pages, but say it's no longer officially supported by West End Games. Then again, I think it's time WEG brought back PARANOIA and stopped dealing in the silly things they typically deal in now, like Torg and Metabarons.

Now, James said "their fan base" referring to BioWare, not necessarily Star Wars. I expect that most Star Wars fans would buy the product regardless of the game system, but BioWare / D&D fans who aren't fans of Star Wars might be more likely to buy it if it used a familiar rules system.

WEG Star Wars had been out for years is my point. It sold gobs and gobs of copies. Those familiar with Star Wars PnP roleplaying should be the market you center on when you make a Star Wars CRPG.

BioWare's fan base would buy anything with their name on it, moreso than a Star Wars fan would be likely to buy a Star Wars video game at this point simply because of what Psilon said. The majority of Star Wars games out there are of questionable quality at best. Like I said though, WEG's d6 Star Wars was a hot seller, and I'm pretty sure it was still official when KotOR started production.

I'd say it has little to do with familiarity of the BioWare fan base, or any other fan base, and more to do with just sitting back and tweaking code versus actually writing it. It's just easier to cut and paste.

Also, James said that development time was also an issue. Since the programming and design teams were already familiar with d20, it would be faster to use that system.

Since when has BioWare actually been concerned with development time? Their name alone means they don't have to be concerned about it, just like id Software doesn't have to release anything until they want to release it.

As I said, I got the reasons right, but the company wrong. Let me clarify, SP was right when he said that BioWare chose d20 for KotOR but I was right when I said it was for familiarity and development time reasons, not because it was easier.

Something that's harder never means less development time, Nomad.

 

[Nomad]

Way to avoid the question, SP. At least it appears as if you read my entire post this time, though. I'll consider that an improvement.

You think that suggesting you might work for BioWare because you say something about them with certainty without any proof whatsoever makes me a smart-ass? That's interesting - I'll have to remember that.

So, what you're saying is that anytime you say something, I should scour the forums looking for some off-hand reference to where you might have the source of that information. Please, why should I do your leg work for you? You're the one that considers himself a professional journalist, if I recall from the tantrum you threw at the GamersHell guys. If so, then do your job and cite your references.

Just going from the interview with James, the decision was based on familiarity of the d20 system with BioWare's fan base and the development time required to come up with a new rules system. If you're basing you're stance regarding who made the decision on this interview, then I'll base my stance on why the decision made on the same one.

Also, if I have an unlimited amount of resources and choose to do something easy, then I did it because it's easy. If I have fixed resources and choose to do something easy, then I did it because I have fixed resources. (At least, that's the way I look at things.) See the difference?


N.

 

[Briosafreak]

You think that suggesting you might work for BioWare because you say something about them with certainty without any proof whatsoever makes me a smart-ass? That's interesting - I'll have to remember that.

You do realise that`s setlled, Saint_P was right and you look silly continuing this right?
Everyone knows that Bio chose D20, so get over it.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You do realise that`s setlled, Saint_P was right and you look silly continuing this right?
Everyone knows that Bio chose D20, so get over it.

Nope, he doesn't have the first clue about that, Brios. No idea at all.

 

[Nomad]

Hilarious!

Speaking of being silly and yet unaware, you realize that I conceded the point about it being Bio's decision to use d20 for KotOR 3 posts ago, right? SP was right about that. You really have to remember to read the _whole_ post, guys.

All I'm saying is that in the same news item / interview, we're using as "proof" of that decision, there's "proof" that my comments regarding the rationale behind that decision were right.

All SP has to do is admit that I got that part right. That's it. Well, that and explain why I was supposed to know that his source for the Bio's decision was a BioWare employee when he didn't include any links.


N.

 

[EEVIAC]

So, what you're saying is that anytime you say something, I should scour the forums looking for some off-hand reference to where you might have the source of that information. Please, why should I do your leg work for you?

Not at all. What's being suggested is that you source a reference for the argument that you make, not anyone elses. In the end it was Role Player who found the information of his own volition. Saint didn't even stick it to you.

All SP has to do is admit that I got that part right. That's it. Well, that and explain why I was supposed to know that his source for the Bio's decision was a BioWare employee when he didn't include any links.

What part have you gotten right? The part where you failed to read Ohlen's actual comment correctly or the part where you assumed he said something he didn't? Here's the "proof" for your statement again :

After some discussion we felt that the drawbacks of a preexisting rule system weren't all that bad, as all of our programmers and designers were very familiar with the d20 rule set.

Bioware made the choice, Bioware made the choice because their programmers were familiar with D&D like systems.