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Editorial RPG Codex Editorial: Darth Roxor on the State of RPG Writing

alphyna

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Even Tolstoj has shit prose now? what? holy crap the codex sometimes.
Perhaps translations soften the punch somewhat, but in the original, his wording is often a mouthful. He's famous for trailing off mid-sentence sometimes. One thing I'll say for him though is that his prose is the opposite of purple: he often sounds like a guy who so desperately wants you to get the point that he kinda forgets to check for awkward phrasing.

To each their own and stuff. Just wanted to point out that it's a controversial reference when talking about writing style.
Please, do list some actual published (in peer reviewed journals) papers, philological or linguistical, which state that Tolstoy's works are shit. And if you can do it, than please tell me by what margin do they outnumber those who don't think that Tolstoy was a hack.
No, of course I can't. Literary analysts do not analyze texts to determine whether they're shit or not; this is not an academic field of inquiry. However, I've come across this opinion (being held as personal) among educated people often enough to believe that it has some grounds. I concede that my evidence is anecdotal, so take from it what you will. For what it's worth, it doesn't undermine Roxor's arguement; I've just found it funny that he's (unwittingly, perhaps) chosen Leo as an example.

(Also I never claimed his works are shit, I said that his writing style is often regarded as bad. The style is just one component of a literaty work.)

to say that he's wildly regarded as a hack
Slippery slope much?
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Um SV, philologists aren't literature critics.

(I've never heard anyone informed calling Tolstoy atrocious though, it is a bizarre contention. I have noticed though that Westerners do seem to rank Tolstoy higher than Russians. "Which one is the better writer, Pushkin or Tolstoy?" is a pretty good litmus test...)
 

Jazz_

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No, of course I can't. Literary analysts do not analyze texts to determine whether they're shit or not; this is not an academic field of inquiry. However, I've come across this opinion (being held as personal) among educated people often enough to believe that it has some grounds. I concede that my evidence is anecdotal, so take from it what you will. For what it's worth, it doesn't undermine Roxor's arguement; I've just found it funny that he's (unwittingly, perhaps) chosen Leo as an example.

(Also I never claimed his works are shit, I said that his writing style is often regarded as bad. The style is just one component of a literaty work.)


Slippery slope much?

Well, as the romans said ''de gustibus non est disputandum''. I've read a lot of russian literature (not in russian of course, so I don't have that perspective) and if anything the guy I find overrated is Dostoevskji. In my humble opinion he's way below Tolstoj, Turgenev, Checov, Gogol and others.
 
Unwanted

DrDigej

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but he seems to come up with very specific theories about how things came about without offering anything to persuade.
Aye. Its cause Roxor has no insight whatsoever into the world of the 'creative writers', nor the 'game writers' cause he is neither. At best he might have contributed to some shit indie game and thats it.
And look at Battle Brothers, not an arrpeegee and yet the text for the quests is hilariously long, too long. sser

And Roxor is wrong too. There is no misconception among the game writers about what they are doing. They dont imagine they are writing a book. And he is not "analysing the trap that these people have fallen into when they've decided to make their game like a book (tm)."
They've been told to write xy and they did to their ability. Thats it. They thought "dank air" sounded cool and put it to paper. Finito. No need for a ragey "editorial"...
 

alphyna

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I've read a lot of russian literature (not in russian of course, so I don't have that perspective) and if anything the guy I find overrated is Dostoevskji. In my humble opinion he's way below Tolstoj, Turgenev, Checov, Gogol and others.
Unlike Tolstoy, on Dostoyevsky I can find you a ton of quotes calling him shit with various degrees of politeness—starting from Nabokov and Tolstoy himself, so you are definitely not alone in this opinion.
 
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No, of course I can't. Literary analysts do not analyze texts to determine whether they're shit or not; this is not an academic field of inquiry.
Philological analysis of literary texts discipline, which is taught when someone wants to earn even his bachelor degree in philology teaches, well, to critique texts.
However, I've come across this opinion (being held as personal) among educated people often enough to believe that it has some grounds.
Ah, I see, so it based on opinions of some educated people.
I concede that my evidence is anecdotal, so take from it what you will.
Oh, I will, I will.
For what it's worth, it doesn't undermine Roxor's arguement; I've just found it funny that he's (unwittingly, perhaps) chosen Leo as an example.
Roxor even trolls wittingly, not to mention chooses his literary references.
(Also I never claimed his works are shit, I said that his writing style is often regarded as bad. The style is just one component of a literaty work.)
his writing ability—i.e. the ability to put actual words into actual sentences to convey said ideas—is widely regarded as atrocious here in Russia. (And not by lazy ninth-graders, but by mature philologists as well.)
Writing ability is one of the main components of a literary work. If someone doesn't have it, if it's wildly considered as atrocious, he can't be considered a classic writer. So you've said exactly that.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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I don't see what the problem is.

First he argues that different mediums (so for example books and games) aren't compatible. Then he references Tolstoy, a novelist, to discuss video games. Classic split personality disorder, like every other Sith who gains Darth title.
 
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Um SV, philologists aren't literature critics.

(I've never heard anyone informed calling Tolstoy atrocious though, it is a bizarre contention. I have noticed though that Westerners do seem to rank Tolstoy higher than Russians. "Which one is the better writer, Pushkin or Tolstoy?" is a pretty good litmus test...)
It's complicated, but our BA in philology are taught philological analysis, which contains some elements of the literary criticism. It's not the main point of the analysis, true. But still, here critical theory isn't as widespread, so our arts courses differ from western ones in methodology sometimes. Anyway, I didn't want to dig all this shit up, it's just unapologetic "Tolstoy's writing ability is wildly considered atrocious" sure isn't widespread, even among educated people. Among highschoolers who suffer through War and Peace though - yeah, it is. And many people held to their dislike long after they finish school. Hell, even I don't like Tolstoy, which doesn't stop me from acknowledging that he's a literary classic and one of the pillars of Russian literature, like it or not.
 

SausageInYourFace

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Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
problematic, systemic, normalizing, or narrative - their language and jargon have become mainstream.

Thats not postmodern jargon, though.

tl.dr. version: hire writers who mostly read pre-70s stuff. More sword & sorcery, less college-educated writers.

Well, they kinda are, you can check their google ngrams and you will see their usage soars after the 60s, and it first started in the academic world and then they became mainstream, which was my point. Hardly anybody used problematic or "putting into question" before Derrida was translated, narrative (in its modern meaning) was obscure as shit and comes from Critical Theory (which isn't really po-mo, but whatever, I'm talking mostly about academese in general,) and "systemic" has become a very popular weasel word in sociology and cultural criticism retardation. Another example would be expressions like binary and non-binary, which also come from Derrida (deconstructing "binary oppositions") and then through Judith Butler, patron saint of today's Tumblr trannies. I know normal people are not going to use logocentrism, diférance, performance, or "compulsive heteronormativity" but a certain odd language that once was very uncommon has now become normal.

A wild mesh of concepts, people, schools of thought and trigger word terminology all mixed together and equating them in an half-informed and almost conspiratorial manner, though they are all only loosely connected to one another, and, at any rate, are political when what we are actually discussing is literature. If you mix all this stuff so indiscriminately you just muddle up the conversation and as a result, instead of discussing writing and quality of (literary) education, we are suddenly discussing heteronormativity.

And really:

And since that style of writing is generally shit, people educated in that academic ambient will also write, well, shit

Video game writers certainly don't take their writing style from highly theoretical or philosophical texts, nor should they. Roxor argued that it was a postmodern notion of the inability to make conclusive value judgments which had a detrimental effect on the quality of the education of writers; I disagree with that but its an argument you could possibly defend. He didn't say they write badly cause they are copying the postmodernists style of writing.

If, however, you don't like my focus on "postmodern" (which wasn't mine in the first place, though,) fair enough, replace it with "long-winded academic obscurantism" and we all understand what that means.

Yeah, lets do that then.
 
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Tigranes

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It could be we need an editorial on the quality of shitpost writing as well.

Can't be done, the subject is too divisive.

(BTW I like this implicit theory that people are forced to read Derrida, and then end up writing like Derrida. One of the weirdest contradictions in the humanities is actually that you're forced to read, say, Heidegger, but if you ever wrote like Heidegger, you would be buttfucked out of your degree - and only a minority ever even try.)
 

Kaivokz

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Though geographically there are obtuse "analytic" philosophers and concise/analytic continental philosophers... and presently the western analytic tradition is being polluted with rubbish like 'feminist epistemology' and other relativist nonsense.

rating_citation.png
Open up Locke's 'Essay Concerning Human Understading' for an easy example of an obtuse analytic philosopher. His writing is full of sentences with 15+ commas that go on for a page and a half. I'm sure there are other examples.

Concise and clear continental philosophers are harder to think of. When I wrote that I was mostly thinking of philosophers who lived and worked on mainland Europe but had an analytic tilt--e.g. Hegel, a German Idealist. Frege was also a German, but I suppose he turned away from idealism pretty early. Kant was a surprisingly lucid transcendental at times, though it certainly wasn't his defining characteristic. Camus worked out of France, but is considered part of the Western tradition. Spinoza was a Nederlander with a highly analytic style.

I suppose writing "...geographically there are..." was an obtuse way of saying some Western philosophers are obtuse and some philosophers from mainland Europe are concise and clear. Though thinking about it now, why anyone would separate them that way is beyond me.
 

Fenix

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Personally I doubt the drop of quality of education as a reason for substandard writing, since I don't see any degree making anyone a good writer. It's ultimately a skill that comes from voluntary investment on reading fiction, nonfiction and practicing writing itself.

I'll say how I understood what he meant - he meant that whole society has changed because education system can't be changed by itself, and it mirrored changes that society has undergone, unless someone had forcefully changed education system first with intention to change society through it, which is interesting thought too.
He meant that society as cultural enviroment has degraded so much that it poisoned education system, because all connected in society.
Same education system will bring different results in different societies (if it is possible at all to keep same education system in diffrent societies).
Judging what I know about western universities, they consequentially turning in a places that cultivate a mindless mob, that in same time a linching mob which is a good old american tradition on its own.
No matter what modern reasons and motivations are - they are not a whit better then previous ones, before you could be linched for color of your skin, today the reasons lies within SJW agenda.

Just a heads-up: Tolstoy was a very smart man who had a lot of great and important ideas, but his writing ability—i.e. the ability to put actual words into actual sentences to convey said ideas—is widely regarded as atrocious here in Russia. (And not by lazy ninth-graders, but by mature philologists as well.)

Never heard that. Heard that his "wording is mouthful" - and I agree with it, but that's not the same as "atrocious", otherwise I can't explain how he become so widely known and prised.
Just common sense.
His wording is clumsy maybe, but even then not to the point to be repulsive enough that people abandoned his War and Peace, and I mean unedited Russian version, not that stub that was provided to western readers.

The thing is, recently I've come to believe that games as a medium are actually generally better at being poems than at being novels, the feeling reinforced by many non-RPG titles that explore that area.

Maybe because said today's novelist are a shit, don't you think so?

It's not really ok though. Optional lore dumps are better than forced lore dumps, but lore dumps are still shit.

Stuffing lore into books like Bethesda loves to do shows that the designers have no clue how to integrate it into the setting, gameplay, and story moments. It makes it useless, creating a disconnect between the lore and the gameplay. And it reads like fanfiction.

Agree, I couldn't bring myself to read all shit they wrote for DA:O, it was so boring I only have read like dozen of them, so lifeless and dry.

"writing is an intellectual activity, not a bundle of skills."

That's the right explanation.
I ofter read in some autobiography that "I couldn't not to write, so I start to write". It isn't a set of skills, it is a demand to write, like a demand to breath.


They were introduced because students were understandably complaining that the cost of buying all these books was really high, and the library copies were often booked out. Ok, the latter part of that complaint was always bullshit - there was always a copy of each text on each reading list in the 'library reserve' (where you can only borrow for a couple of hours at a time - enough to read a couple of chapters and then let someone else have a go).

The idea was that you'd have the 'major bits' to be discussed in the lectures provided in one free photocopy-friendly course reader, and students would still go and read the full books themselves. Like fuck that was ever going to happen.

One fellow teacher once said me a story, how to the school where that person worked at was presented a new textbooks, funded by Soros fund. It was a common thing for Russian schools in 90s at least.
I don't remember what kind of textbook it was, but there were changes - some parts of textbook were placed on CD and it was suggested that schoolchildren should access it at home and read and do some homework with it.
Of course it almost never happened, thus some parts of textbook were effectively excluded from educational process.
That school chose not to use it in the end, luckily for children.

Post 70s fantasy and science fiction is mostly about "epic heroes," world-saving Messias, or stuff like that. It had not been like this before, though. Previously, fantasy was mostly about common people in uncommon circumstances or worlds (you know, fantastic stuff.) Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser (Fritz Lieber) are a just pair of brigands and adventurers, Conan (R. E. Howard) may become a king, but he is not involved in any Epic Struggle; Cugel the Clever (Jack Vance) is a glib sociopath always looking for himself, and the English knights from The High Crusade (Poul Anderson) are just normal medieval people who stumble upon a spaceship and (no kidding) use it to invade another planet, etc. It should be noted that these writers did not create any "deep lore" or serious worldbuilding, and most of them didn't take themselves too seriously. Unfortunately, it is obvious that most contemporary writers don't read these authors anymore.

I recently read interview with John McTiernan, director of Die Hard, he said same thing - movies changed not long ago, they are no longer talking about the people, and instead began to tell about gods.
I think if you'll search for it you'll find it, I read in in translation.
Books accomlished this earlier for obvious reasons - you need only pen and paper for book, so you are less restricted.
I belive these changes somehow tied with failed Christianity on a West, and falling into neo-paganism or even satanism which is what "new edge" is as I understand.

Good article, thou I also wonder if second part shouldn't have been axed.
No, because it is most important part - it is appeal to the reader to think about global reasons, which is really stand behind changes, not the immediate cause.

Tigranes don't understand your point - it looks in general as if you disagree, but I can't find specifically where.
Refering to "economics" is plain bullshit because said economics is a tool and and effect, not the cause.
It is more looks like post modernists move - "because the problem leading to something being bad is always due to some nebulous, unchangeable reason… or the problem doesn’t exist altogether."
 
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Tigranes

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Though geographically there are obtuse "analytic" philosophers and concise/analytic continental philosophers... and presently the western analytic tradition is being polluted with rubbish like 'feminist epistemology' and other relativist nonsense.

rating_citation.png
Open up Locke's 'Essay Concerning Human Understading' for an easy example of an obtuse analytic philosopher. His writing is full of sentences with 15+ commas that go on for a page and a half. I'm sure there are other examples.

Concise and clear continental philosophers are harder to think of. When I wrote that I was mostly thinking of philosophers who lived and worked on mainland Europe but had an analytic tilt--e.g. Hegel, a German Idealist. Frege was also a German, but I suppose he turned away from idealism pretty early. Kant was a surprisingly lucid transcendental at times, though it certainly wasn't his defining characteristic. Camus worked out of France, but is considered part of the Western tradition. Spinoza was a Nederlander with a highly analytic style.

I suppose writing "...geographically there are..." was an obtuse way of saying some Western philosophers are obtuse and some philosophers from mainland Europe are concise and clear. Though thinking about it now, why anyone would separate them that way is beyond me.

The funny thing is, there isn't a consensus on which writers are pointlessly unreadable and which writers write in a difficult way that actually has good reasons for being difficult and rewards the reader for doing so. (After all, writing being 'difficult' in itself is not a problem.) Usually it is people being impatient, throwing away a difficult philosophical text after half an hour, or believing falsely that all writing of any kind should be just as clear as a NYT article. If we took that attitude, then nobody would have bothered with the Critique of Pure Reason and it would have languished as it initially did. Furthermore, sometimes the subject matter is really difficult, especially to convey in ordinary language. We don't blame a theoretical physics text for having inscrutable terminology and equations.

Taking a very liberal category of 'continental thinkers' who write in a pretty clear way, I can say Bourdieu, some of Foucault, Weber, Guy Debord is as clear as it can possibly get, Butler's actually not particularly difficult to read. There are also writers that can be difficult to read, but it's often for good reason - there I'd say folks like Whitehead, Sartre, Simondon, Agamben. Then you finally have writers who really do seem to make things needlessly annoying: Heidegger, who fucked up his terminology in big time (even in German); Derrida, who is probably the signature candidate; but there are also recent writers like Karen Barad, who was ironically educated in the sciences.

I tend to reserve judgment when we get to early 1800s and earlier, given the many differences in style and language. It can be fun to read, say, Bacon and see just how fucking long they have to take to start the actual book.
 

pomenitul

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A wild mesh of concepts, people, schools of thought and trigger word terminology all mixed together and equating them in an half-informed and almost conspriatorial manner, though they are all only loosely connected to one another, and, at any rate, are political when what we are actually discussing is literature. If you mix all this stuff so indiscriminately you just muddle up the conversation and as a result, instead of discussing writing and quality of (literary) education, we are suddenly discussing heteronormativity.

It's especially amusing when you consider that back in the 1980's and 1990's, Derrida was often accused of depoliticizing literature. Case in point (translated on the fly): "Aesthetics rewards the secretiveness of that which remains hidden; ethics, on the other hand, requires manifestation; aesthetics cultivates secretiveness, ethics punishes it."
 

Fenix

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(BTW I like this implicit theory that people are forced to read Derrida, and then end up writing like Derrida. One of the weirdest contradictions in the humanities is actually that you're forced to read, say, Heidegger, but if you ever wrote like Heidegger, you would be buttfucked out of your degree - and only a minority ever even try.)
You ar etalknig bullshit.
All your jokes don't make sense - if you do childish absurdic assumption about how culture and society work, and doesn't mean that it have ANYTHING with text you are moking at.
 

Tigranes

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Uh, what? I'm not sure what you think I'm saying there, because your reply has nothing to do with it.
 

alphyna

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Just a heads-up: Tolstoy was a very smart man who had a lot of great and important ideas, but his writing ability—i.e. the ability to put actual words into actual sentences to convey said ideas—is widely regarded as atrocious here in Russia. (And not by lazy ninth-graders, but by mature philologists as well.)

Never heard that. Heard that his "wording is mouthful" - and I agree with it, but that's not the same as "atrocious", otherwise I can't explain how he become so widely known and prised.
Just common sense.
His wording is clumsy maybe, but even then not to the point to be repulsive enough that people abandoned his War and Peace, and I mean unedited Russian version, not that stub that was provided to western readers.

Fair enough, "atrocious" was an exaggeration on my part. I apologize to everyone who was offended by this atrocious hyperbole.

The thing is, recently I've come to believe that games as a medium are actually generally better at being poems than at being novels, the feeling reinforced by many non-RPG titles that explore that area.

Maybe because said today's novelist are a shit, don't you think so?
Personally, I don't. Like I mentioned, I think it has to do with games as a medium—well-suited for, for the lack of a better word, "wide" experiences: the ones that offer many opportunities and don't force the player to move in a particular direction, that work like LEGO pieces, allowing the player to construct whatever from them. But like I said, there might be exceptions, it's just my personal opinion.

Don't get me wrong, a good writer can make a game that would have a good novel-style story, but I still feel like it wouldn't be using the medium to its full extent.
 
Self-Ejected

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Open up Locke's 'Essay Concerning Human Understading' for an easy example of an obtuse analytic philosopher. His writing is full of sentences with 15+ commas that go on for a page and a half. I'm sure there are other examples.

Concise and clear continental philosophers are harder to think of. When I wrote that I was mostly thinking of philosophers who lived and worked on mainland Europe but had an analytic tilt--e.g. Hegel, a German Idealist. Frege was also a German, but I suppose he turned away from idealism pretty early. Kant was a surprisingly lucid transcendental at times, though it certainly wasn't his defining characteristic. Camus worked out of France, but is considered part of the Western tradition. Spinoza was a Nederlander with a highly analytic style.

I suppose writing "...geographically there are..." was an obtuse way of saying some Western philosophers are obtuse and some philosophers from mainland Europe are concise and clear. Though thinking about it now, why anyone would separate them that way is beyond me.

I think that analytic philosophy is just a refinement and development of proper philosophy practiced throughout history. In this sense, Locke is one the many philosophers that we could consider a precursor of analytic philosophy alongside Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Hume, Berkeley, Kant and many others. Analytic philosophy is broad enough to include any philosophical theses, including idealism – see Nicholas Rescher work, for instance. I think the best description of analytic philosophy was presented by François Recanati, but the paper was only published in Spanish and translated to Portuguese, I think. He argues that analytic philosophy is inspired by a “scientific spirit”, defined by intersubjectivity (the emphasis is given to discussion and mutual criticism), which leads to a demand for clarity, appeal to argumentation, promotion of precision, thoroughness, the refuse to reduce philosophy to its history, the usual formulation of theses and problems in the metalinguistic level in order to make them more explicit, etc. Of course, there are obscure analytic philosophers such as John Mcdowell and clear continental “philosophers” such as Nietzsche. The difference is that they aspire to clarity, while continental philosophers don’t.

tdlr; Analytic philosophy is traditional philosophy, but more rigorous and turbocharged by formal logic.
 
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Somberlain

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What the hell is going on in this thread? I was thinking it would be more like

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not important."

–John Carmack

:obviously:
 

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