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Editorial Rowan Kaiser on FPS/RPG Hybrids

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Rowan Kaiser, commentator on Western RPG affairs for the unwashed masses over at Joystiq, has a new column up in which he reflects upon some issues that commonly afflict "FPS/RPG hybrids". He makes a few good points:

The crucial issue is this: first-person shooters reward player skill. The faster you are at aiming, the better you are at moving, the more likely you will succeed in an FPS. Role-playing games can involve that (especially action-RPGs), but they always rely on character skill. Your character statistics, items, and skills will help you succeed, or cause you to fail, regardless of how speedy you are with a mouse or a controller. Deus Ex managed to find just the right balance where both player and character skill were important for success.​

Generally, the balance leans toward the shooter side. For example, Far Cry 3 is at its best as a pure shooter, freed from the constraints of its plot or the necessity of its skill system. Spy, plan, aim, reload, run, hide, and do it again. Sure, the skills can help a bit, but it's easy to imagine Far Cry 3 without them, as previous games in that series were. This is a consistent issue in most FPS/RPG hybrids. Looking back back a decade to No One Lives Forever 2, there's another sequel to a cult hit first-person shooter with a skill system that, while not necessarily bad, didn't enhance the core setting and mechanics that made its prequel so astonishing.​

Even in games with more robust role-playing systems, balance is still critical. 2011's Deus Ex: Human Revolution had a skill tree that was more critical than Far Cry 3's, but it wasn't entirely balanced with the rest of the game. By the time I was halfway through the game, I had every skill that I thought I wanted or needed, so I just spent the game's Praxis points on anything that might have seemed at all useful at some point, even if it didn't fit my play-style and I never used it. Even a classic like BioShock succeeded in large part by suppressing the importance of its skills and treating them more as another weapon to be managed, shooter-style, than as a full hybrid. You could shoot an enemy with a shotgun or you could shoot him with bees, in other words.​

On the other hand, Borderlands and Dead Island both attempt to be robust role-playing games as well as shooters. In their looks alone, you can see how much damage you're doing to enemies when you shoot or stab them, a visualization almost exclusively reserved for RPGS. Their skill improvements are consistently useful over the course of their respective games as well. But they too struggle with the tension between player and character skill, particularly in terms of how difficult they are. A game balanced for increasing player skill will add more constraints, more enemies, or tougher enemies (say, with armor that forces you to attack only specific body parts) in order to maintain difficulty. A game balanced for character skill, however, can increase difficulty simply by increasing the statistics of enemies in order to align with the player character's statistics.​

Borderlands does the latter, by making enemy levels static, steadily increasing in new zones that the player has access to. Skags and bandits in front of the initial town will always be very low-level, and as your characters' power increases, they put up less and less of a fight. This makes growing in power immensely satisfying in RPG terms, but it can render the shooter half of the game dull, especially if you find yourself over-leveled, something that severely damaged my enjoyment of Borderlands.​

Dead Island takes the opposite tactic: it levels up enemies to match your character. The advantage to this is that no matter how far you progress in the game, its normal zombies – Walkers, Infected, and Thugs – will always pose roughly the same level of challenge, where you have to hit them a few times to take them down, and where more than three at once can pose a serious threat. The disadvantage to that model is that the normal enemies all present roughly the same level of challenge. According to my skill tree, I've made significant progress, but in terms of how I'm playing the game it's almost exactly the same at level 30 as it was at level 5.​

Despite the near-total consonance of role-playing games and first-person shooters at a theoretical level, the tension between player and character skill makes creating a hybrid surprisingly difficult. The issues of balance and difficulty, possessed by both genres individually, are exponentially more difficult when combined. Deus Ex showed that it was possible to get that balance right, but it takes something special. That doesn't mean that FPS/RPG hybrids can't be great games. It just means that those hybrids being both satisfying RPGs and shooters at the same time is rare, and worth celebrating when it works.​

Personally, I would say that far more insidious than action games incorporating RPG elements as a forgettable gimmick, are action games that use their dubious RPG hybrid status as an excuse for being crappy action games. By the way, we're still waiting for somebody to submit a Far Cry 3 review. :smug:
 

Roguey

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Rowan Kaiser is an ignoramus, linking to him in a news post is :decline:
 

Zed

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Codex USB, 2014
really shouldn't quote such a huge text when it's external content.
 

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I do skip almost all of Rowan's stuff for being banal/obvious, but here he actually brings some insight into elements of decline, which is always an important topic of discussion on the Codex.

But feel free to request retardo from the admins. I won't give a shit.
 

DraQ

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I find the tension between player and character skill bullshit.
Really.

Separation of concerns bitches:
I can have success depend on how good I am at moving, yet the speed at which I move or the distance I can jump determined by stats; I can have success depend on how good I am at aiming, yet have skill determine weapon stabilization delay (it doesn't have to be long, even a second or two instead of none will make huge difference, and some pure FPS have this - for example STALKER had about a second), recoil (in somewhat randomized direction to prevent simple compensation), movement penalties, sights drift, and reload time; and so on.

The rest of the stuff is hardly restricted to FPS/RPG hybrids.
 

Delterius

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I do skip almost all of Rowan's stuff for being banal/obvious, but here he actually brings some insight into elements of decline, which is always an important topic of discussion on the Codex.

But feel free to request retardo from the admins. I won't give a shit.

There's got to be something more rage-inducing in that blog of his. That way people will be too distracted shitting the comment section to realize the news fodder army.
 

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I find the tension between player and character skill bullshit.
Really.

Separation of concerns bitches:
I can have success depend on how good I am at moving, yet the speed at which I move or the distance I can jump determined by stats; I can have success depend on how good I am at aiming, yet have skill determine weapon stabilization delay (it doesn't have to be long, even a second or two instead of none will make huge difference, and some pure FPS have this - for example STALKER had about a second), recoil (in somewhat randomized direction to prevent simple compensation), movement penalties, sights drift, and reload time; and so on.

Hmm. As the resident first person gaming enthusiast, can you give a list of games that you feel have done this well?

What I suspect is that many developers would tell you that making stats affect only things like recoil, drift, etc would be too subtle for most players to appreciate. That it would be better to go all out with to-hit rolls, or leave character stats out of shooting entirely.
 

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"Actiony" stuff is a pretty low-tier brain activity, and it should not have to permeate all game genres.

I always saw the RPG genre as something cerebral. Character's reflexes should matter, while the impact of player's reflexes should be negligible. There should be a refreshing feeling of change as you stop playing Crysis and start playing Fallout.

I've not seen a single FPS/RPG hybrid where player's reflexes are negligible. The resulting feeling of "fresh experience" when switching between genres, is dulled. Instead of playing an FPS today and an RPG tomorrow, you play Far Cry 3, an FPS with mild RPG mechanics, and then Fallout: New Vegas, an FPS with strong RPG mechanics.

PURITY NOW!
 

dnf

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I just don't get why people brofists newsposts. Its not user made content FFS
 

Metro

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Problem is no one can make a good FPS so they disguise it's inadequacies with watered down RPG elements.
 

sea

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This is actually one of his "better" articles in that he doesn't say anything colossally stupid, he actually did the research (because the games are all ones made past 2008 and thus he actually played them), and the facts are basically there. Unfortunately it's also stuff that is ridiculously obvious and instead of getting really deep into mechanical problems and how to solve them, instead he leaves it at "yeah I guess RPGs and shooters can sort of get along but not really but also they can when they do it right." Truly the ultimate of "armchair game design" with no practical experience or analysis to back it up.

Of course, I have a blood feud with Rowan Kaiser and sacrificed my firstborn to lay a curse upon his progeny, so maybe I'm a bit biased. That, and I just can't take anyone named after a kind of sandwich very seriously.
 

A user named cat

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This is actually one of his "better" articles in that he doesn't say anything colossally stupid....

Rowan Kaiser said:
Even a classic like BioShock

qINEm.gif
 

sea

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This is actually one of his "better" articles in that he doesn't say anything colossally stupid....

Rowan Kaiser said:
Even a classic like BioShock
Trust me, that's nothing compared to some of the stuff he's said in the past. This is the man who said that Mass Effect challenged his definition of RPGs because it had a film grain effect in the options menu, after all. Oh, and in that same article he says RPGs are RPGs because you "play a role" and he called Rogue a hack-and-slash.

qINEm.gif
is right.

Between making claims that make absolutely no sense and having no grasp of the subject matter he professes to be an expert on, Rowan Kaiser also likes to write long-winded articles that have no point to them and frequently contradict their premises by the end. Contact him if you'd like him to write an article for your gaming blog masquerading as a news site!
 

Apexeon

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Today everything is a RPG. Doom had stats so maybe that was a RPG as well back in the day.
At the moment I am leveling up my car in GT5 and I am playing the "role" of a driver.
So I am calling a out a new class of CRPG the Driver RPG (DRPG). No longer called a simulation/racing game it can
now join the rest of the growing RPG crowd.

Anyway I must get back to farming pigs in World of pigcraft.
Whats the problem with MMORPG today ----> theres no bacon.
 

DraQ

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Hmm. As the resident first person gaming enthusiast, can you give a list of games that you feel have done this well?
I know of no single title that did all of that well, but:

Recoil:
System Shock 2 had very nice randomized recoil that really fucked up your accuracy, skill and stats reduced this significantly IIRC. DX1 didn't quite have randomized recoil, but its recoil was sever enough, that pumping skill to advanced was pretty much required to use some weapons effectively. DX:HR recoil compensation really made some difference when firing heavy weapons.

Reload times:
DX1 did this. It didn't matter that much in this game admittedly, but with aggressive (not allowing you downtime) and smart (not getting all gunned down with first half of your magazine) AI it could be very meaningful. Unfortunately modern AI seems perfectly content letting player sit behind a box for arbitrary amounts of time.
You can also restrict reload based on movement or movement based on reload, only reducing and then removing those restrictions at high skill level. Ever tried reloading a pump action shotgun while sprinting?

Stabilization times:
Those are hard to do properly, because they need to be subtle in order to avoid feeling forced, but have to be long enough to be meaningful. For example in Deus Ex this was the primary mechanics, but it didn't feel very smooth due to those times being excessively long.
Stalker had very short times (and no skills), but they were one of the factors that had to be mastered by the player in order to shoot somewhat effectively. As a rule of thumb, the more things disrupt steadiness of your aim (for example not only moving, but even aiming at different spot), the shorter, and therefore subtler, this times have to be in order to be effective.

Aiming drift/weapon sway:
DX:HR pretty much hit the nail on the head here (too bad that laser sight was hax). If you feel evil, you can add minuscule delay (no more than about 250ms) between click and actual trigger pull (randomize it a bit to prevent muscle memory accurate snap-shooting), then reduce and remove it with rising skill, it would be extremely annoying in an UT or Quake style jump&spray shooter, but in semi-realistic one it may be barely noticeable.
If you're using any sort of permanent accuracy malus, or lengthy stabilization times, then weapon sway may be a good way of telling the player *WHY* his aim sucks so much.

Sight-in delay is another good idea, especially that you have to animate sighting in, so it's automatically justified because the mechanics is *shown* to the player.

You can also add mutual movement-aiming and movement-firing restrictions that go away once you invest in the skill.

Also, if your game has any sort of maintenance or critical failure mechanics for weapons, then by all means, make them target of your skill mechanics.

What I suspect is that many developers would tell you that making stats affect only things like recoil, drift, etc would be too subtle for most players to appreciate. That it would be better to go all out with to-hit rolls, or leave character stats out of shooting entirely.
Many developers also think that hiding behind indestructible cardboard box to rapidly regrow vital organs while the AI courteously waits is super exciting and the way to go or that excessive bloom makes stuff look more realistic.

And to hit rolls for ranged weapons are completely spurious when you have full 3D and actually simulate where projectiles go.

The thing is that affecting great multitude of factors at once allows even very subtle changes to have profound gameplay impact.

What you don't want to do (apart from to-hit rolls for ranged weapons):
-make skill affect damage with ranged, powered weapons.
-make skill affect usability of weapons (super-advanced weapons or super advanced special functions of advanced weaponry are borderline ok, but weapons are generally meant to be idiot-friendly), System Shock 2 approach where your cyber-augmented (if slightly disoriented) supersoldier can't fire a pistol or shotgun every hilly-billy can, or can't fire an AR along the lines african expendable kid soldiers fire routinely without spending precious cyber-modules is beyond retarded.
-make skills affect usability of ammo, or actually 'create' special ammo for weapons - hello mAss (D)effect
 

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