Risen

[Murk]

Although whoever designed Risen's magic system should be hung by the balls and fired - runic magic is mostly rather gimmicky, while of the three magic crystals, fireball is the rather clear superior in pretty much every aspect.

I disagree - I experimented with fire and frost and I find frost is amazing, especially when facing multiple enemies. One blast from a mid-to-high level frost spell freezes elite lizard warriors for 5+ seconds (depending on how high level your spell is, at max level its considerably long) giving you PLENTY of time to take one out in melee or to freeze them again and continue to crowd control - something very important given that you lack a shield as a warrior of the order/mage.

here's a good example of a guy using all three kinds of magic crystal, maxed out, on an ashbeast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9ilZsdlz8Q

the fireball is the easiest way to kill, no doubt, but I prefer the added utility of the freeze effect for the extra 2 mp.

Note: ashbeasts are especially resistant to freezing, lizard enemies are frozen for a very long time at higher levels of frost.

--------

On the topic of combining combat styles - I find it kind of redundant to be a bow+magic specialist considering that your magic will require plenty of LP to get up to a strong point, at which point it will outperform your archery (remember, archery is going to require 10LP per level AS WELL as Dexterity. With magic you'll only need to raise the crystal in question and possibly dump points into mana).

I took Staff fighting because i figured it'd be the easiest to build up and also because it was the only weapon I hadn't used - so far I'm at level 8 staff fighting with 1 ring of the staff fighter and it performs roughly the same as a two-handed sword did, minus the shield (which is actually a big deal to me). The attacks and abilities are roughly the same but I can't help but feel as though some of my attacks are a bit slower. Also, staves are pretty underpowered until you get to the end-game. At the point where I have a 58 attack power two-bladed staff I had a two handed obsidian sword that outperformed most of the "forge shit yourself" weapons as well as many you'd find in dungeons.

---

Game time - I'd say your first play through will be 30+ hours, your consequent play throughs will be much shorter as you wont' spend time "looking" as much.

--

Random gripe about Brother None's comment on the graphics being dated - dude, this is without a doubt the most beautiful 3d RPG I have played. Ever. The graphics are fucking AMAZING and they run smooth as a newborn asian's balls on my 1.8ghz cpu/1.5gb ram PC.

 

[wader2k]

Hmmm... I don't entirely agree with your consensus guys. It's true that Risen is much better polished than Gothic 3. It's true that combat wise Risen shines whereas Gothic 3 is really meh, or even disastrous as far as melee combat goes(archery and magic was very good). But in matters of exploration G3 is sheer brilliance. Vast area to traverse, different types of terrain. Nothing can compare to the feeling of freedom just after you finish the first town and the map opens before you. Not to mention it was more epic . Feeling when you could show those bastard orcs where they belong was truly memorable. Last but not least character development was more rich and more satisfying. And magic! Magic was great! So all in all Risen is much more polished and coherent game, but if it wasn't for the atrocious bugs and slowdowns of G3 I would clearly crown G3 over Risen.

This is my assessment as well. After all the Community patches were applied I had no problems with the combat or other things folks gripe about. G3 was EPIC...and the world was gorgeous. Just watching the natural ecosystem gave a feeling of reality. Going on a deerhunt was a thing of beauty!

 

[Martin]

I remember enjoying gothic 3 quite alot for similar reasons and that was before the "enchanced edition" assembly of community patches and changes. Even with the stunlock problems in combat and the occasional bug it was one of the best sandbox rpg experiences I had. Personally even with its faults I find the melee combat model superior to the previous gothics as well.

I didnt start a new playthrough with the enhanced edition package but from what I hear it might make gothic 3 more appealing to those who avoided it before, it tweaks alot of things especially the balance and combat and unlike other gothic 3 versions its supposed to be stable and relatively bug free.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Right, just finished the third - and final - playthrough. Expect a review soon.

I disagree - I experimented with fire and frost and I find frost is amazing, especially when facing multiple enemies. One blast from a mid-to-high level frost spell freezes elite lizard warriors for 5+ seconds (depending on how high level your spell is, at max level its considerably long) giving you PLENTY of time to take one out in melee or to freeze them again and continue to crowd control - something very important given that you lack a shield as a warrior of the order/mage.

Yeah, I tried the same thing, actually, and I must say I reconsidered when it comes to frost magickz.

Magic bullet still sucks, though.

 

[Murk]

Magic Bullet is pretty lackluster if only because its trade-off of high speed/low mana is negated by its horrible damage output. It's still a viable path, but I wouldn't recommend trying it until you get it to level 6 or so.

God I wish this game was longer though, or bigger (more exploration ++++)

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Personally even with its faults I find the melee combat model superior to the previous gothics as well.

What did you find superior about G3's combat over G1 and 2?

 

[Murk]

I wasn't asked but I'll chime in anyway (ego+++).

I liked the first two Gothics' combat system more than 3's, but I did see potential in 3 that was wasted due to it being poorly implemented and not balanced. In previous games you basically had 3 types of attacks at any given point. Forward combo, side swipes, and a running attack (that was mostly useless). In Gothic 3 you had 2 types of forward attacks (fast and normal), side swipes, charge attacks, stab attacks (with stun effect), and supposedly would have had jumping attacks (these may have been as useless as the dash-and-slash of g1/2 tho.

The main difference would be in 3's more flexible "mix in your own combo" system that would allow you to chain attacks in whichever fashion would be to your benefit, something Risen actually did have. In the first two games however you could only mix in a side-swipe to your basic combo, or stop the combo short to parry/dodge. The system actually worked better in the first two games (overall), but there were parts where 3 outshined, namely when facing off against multiple opponents. Fighting against a group in 3 was not only possible, but even pretty fun - in G 1 or 2, it was basically suicide.

Though all praise I had for Gothic 3's system depends sorely on "if it was built better than it currently is" - and since it isn't, there isn't much point in what I had to say.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I can see where you are coming from, but this always goes down to potential vs excellent working system.

3's fighting had potential, but because it was not realised, it didn't work. Combat was so easy that it became boring. I have yet to play the community patches though, so i will lay off it a little for now (which leads me to the question: Can someone provide me with a patching sequence please? Which patches in what order (no need for new effects or whatever, just gameplay patches)).

G1 and 2 had a much simpler system, but because of this simplicity it kept things tense. The AI could use the same moves quite well and not get raped by the player until well into the game, where the final "ah, finally I can face XYZ without fleeing like a lunatic or sweating profusely trying to win one battle" moment kicks in. Some of the sword fights with the harder opponents lasted quite a while, with all the blocking, running about for position, and so on.

Since I haven't tried the game yet (I am thinking of buying it very soon), can someone describe the combat system of Risen using G1/2 and G3 as a comparison?

 

[Murk]

Risen implemented both. Weapon skill goes up as you place LP in them by level, and each weapon type has 10 levels. Each level you put a point in unlocks new movies, adds extra combos, or increases function (use bastard swords with one hand, attack faster, etc.).

Over all, much better than all other Gothic games put together.

As for the G3 community patch, there is a very large cumulative (I believe I used version 1.6) that I downloaded, and nothing else. Worked fine for me, but combat was very much a chore and unpredictable. The most dangerous enemy remains, from start to finish, variations of Wolves and Boars. Magic, however, is the "haha I win" button. Even the most basic magic attack - as the regeneration of mana talent, which admittedly takes a bit of time/building up to get, makes it so you regenerate mana almost as fast as you use it.

The great thing about Risen's combat system is that those enemies that use weapons function to the full extent you do - they will counter your attacks, hit you with charges, go into combos, etc. and those enemies that have no weapon (monsters, beasts) have unique styles and tactics - like Wolves surrounding you, Gnomes keeping you at bay with melee and using archers/throwers to pelt you, and Boars breaking through shield blocks and regular Parries.

 

[coldcrow]

Agreed on the graphics. Risen has the most natural looking gfx I have ever seen for a PC game. Underwood, Jungles, weed in the swamp, worn looking logs, whatever. In difference to, let's say DA:O, it looks believable, not "polished" worn.
Also strolling through the jungles and not seeing a thing cause of the undergrowth is reaaallly nice.

The only real flaw is the woman character model.

 

[Murk]

For that I do not fault them. The nerds at PB modeled what they knew. A variety of bearded men in various garments made of leather, and 1 ugly woman with fake tits.

god bless their souls.

 

[dragonfk]

I can see where you are coming from, but this always goes down to potential vs excellent working system.

3's fighting had potential, but because it was not realised, it didn't work. Combat was so easy that it became boring. I have yet to play the community patches though, so i will lay off it a little for now (which leads me to the question: Can someone provide me with a patching sequence please? Which patches in what order (no need for new effects or whatever, just gameplay patches)).

G1 and 2 had a much simpler system, but because of this simplicity it kept things tense. The AI could use the same moves quite well and not get raped by the player until well into the game, where the final "ah, finally I can face XYZ without fleeing like a lunatic or sweating profusely trying to win one battle" moment kicks in. Some of the sword fights with the harder opponents lasted quite a while, with all the blocking, running about for position, and so on.

Since I haven't tried the game yet (I am thinking of buying it very soon), can someone describe the combat system of Risen using G1/2 and G3 as a comparison?

Just download the latest community patch(1.7.3 ? ) and that's all you need.

 

[Foxtrix]

Yesterday I finished the game. Enjoyed it very much overall but the final boss battle was rather... disappointing.

I don't know if you guys found it hard but I think I must have died maybe 10 times before killing the boss. Sure, it's not that difficult once you get the hang of it. But how am I supposed to believe that my character can just enter the chamber and kill the titan after getting easily killed so many times on the fist attempts?
I think the battle was poorly implemented. I'm not saying it doesn't have to be challenging, but there must be other mechanics to make it challenging without requiring so many reloads.

Also, killing the boss is entirely based on player skill and not on character development. Your character level, stats and skills have no influence whatsoever in the battle.

 

[Darth Roxor]

The whole boss battle was nothing more than a retarded minigame.

 

[Murk]

I'm one of the few that thought the last boss battle was fine. I'll chime in with my own views.

Yesterday I finished the game. Enjoyed it very much overall but the final boss battle was rather... disappointing.

I don't know if you guys found it hard but I think I must have died maybe 10 times before killing the boss. Sure, it's not that difficult once you get the hang of it. But how am I supposed to believe that my character can just enter the chamber and kill the titan after getting easily killed so many times on the fist attempts?

Took me 2 reloads, killed him on my third attempt. Both times I fell due to the floor giving under me.

I think the battle was poorly implemented. I'm not saying it doesn't have to be challenging, but there must be other mechanics to make it challenging without requiring so many reloads.

I think that this mostly boils down to individual play style. I mean, some people would say that the lizardmen temples took too much reloading, I'd say "learn to fight them better" or something. Roughly put - it is a matter of opinion.

Also, killing the boss is entirely based on player skill and not on character development. Your character level, stats and skills have no influence whatsoever in the battle.

The real meat of the argument. The fire titan is supposed to be a near godly being with tremendous power, so much power, in fact, that it alone kept the storms and other titans from coming near the island. It is so powerful, that it actually provides the magi there with a holy symbol, a source of power, and keeps the island eternally warm and safe. It is SO FUCKING POWERFUL that to think you could run up and combo it the way you did a skeleton or ashbeast is kind of ridiculous.

Through years of playing RPGs we have come to expect boss bottles, especially BBEGs to be some kind of epic struggle and major confrontation that puts your character's skills to the test. Yet, strangely, we applaud games that have non-combat solutions to the final boss (Fallout, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment, etc.). So now we have a game that fuses the two - it requires you to step outside your character's STR score yet at the same time requires you to actually put up against the boss.

The game's very combat system is half character based and half player based - you can't just pump your STR to 200 and call it a day, you still have to know when you dodge, when you parry, when to land a blow and sidestep and hit the enemy with a charge attack and all that. This is a game that splits the outcome of battle in two ways - 1) how well you built your character and 2) how well you understand the combat system. Now couple that aspect with the notion that the end boss is far beyond your meager human abilities (really, this game is a low-magic setting) and that you're required to collect an assembly of ancient blessed magical armor to simply withstand the heat of the titan's very presence you will find that this is one of those situations where-in you must defeat the enemy using something above yourself.

The battle plays out with you first needing to stun the Titan by reflecting his own attack at him and to then run up and hit him with the special Titan hammer. This was done in part because of the game's mechanics. The game wouldn't be able to really handle a boss fight in any other way. It would either be 1) run up and hit him till he falls, 2) talk him to death, 3) survive the gauntlet until you pull the switch/activate the rune/stab the heart that kills him or 4) have an variation of the usual battle system. Risen used a combination of 1, 3, and 4 - where you have to run through an environmental gauntlet, go through a variant battle (where its a bit different than just parry/dodge and attack) and finally you have to bash him enough with your weapon.

The biggest fault I could give it was that the end boss was somewhat anti-climactic. The game leaves itself open for a sequel/expansion but they could have made the ending somewhat more punctuated. It seems that for the majority of the game you are trying to figure out what exactly is going on, find your enemies to be mostly lizardmen and eventually a power-mad inquisitor yet... you have to beat some fire base demigod with a hammer? I think it would make more sense if the inquisitor had absorbed the fire titan or if the lizardmen were somehow tied into it all. In terms of how the battle actually went down, it was fine - but everything that surrounded and lead up to it seemed very.... limp.

Okay I typed way too much on this.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Through years of playing RPGs we have come to expect boss bottles, especially BBEGs to be some kind of epic struggle and major confrontation that puts your character's skills to the test. Yet, strangely, we applaud games that have non-combat solutions to the final boss (Fallout, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment, etc.). So now we have a game that fuses the two - it requires you to step outside your character's STR score yet at the same time requires you to actually put up against the boss.

Yes, but the non-combat solutions to the final bosses are also tests of character skill - you wouldn't talk The Master to death without high speech, same with TTO and wisdom or the blade from Coaxmetal, and in Risen, there's not a single character skill factor. As you said, you just run in and bash him with a hammer, no matter if you are a fireball throwing mage or a bowman or a dashing swordsman. It wouldn't be half as bad if it actually provided some different scenarioes for all classes, or more than one way to defeat the titan based on the way you developed your character (for example, some elements in the heart of the volcano that you could shoot with the bow or some sort of 'superflames' that would give the titan additional powers, that you could freeze with the ice lance or somesuch).

 

[Murk]

Yes, but the non-combat solutions to the final bosses are also tests of character skill - you wouldn't talk The Master to death without high speech, same with TTO and wisdom or the blade from Coaxmetal, and in Risen, there's not a single character skill factor.

Sadly, there is no "mental stat" in this game though. Wisdom is just a threshold test for what level of Rune magic you can learn. In reality, there is no dialog related stat - all of your dialog choices come from in game experience and interaction. Something I actually applaud Risen and the Gothic games for -- it wasn't "which stat did you put points into" it was, "what did you do in the game?". However, it bites itself in the ass in this situation.

As you said, you just run in and bash him with a hammer, no matter if you are a fireball throwing mage or a bowman or a dashing swordsman. It wouldn't be half as bad if it actually provided some different scenarioes for all classes, or more than one way to defeat the titan based on the way you developed your character (for example, some elements in the heart of the volcano that you could shoot with the bow or some sort of 'superflames' that would give the titan additional powers, that you could freeze with the ice lance or somesuch).

I agree, i too would have found it great if they had made the boss more than a one trick pony - but that's all somewhat... tricky. Say they did make him have super mega rape you fire... then what if you're not a mage? This game doesn't require you to actually pick a class - your class is based on which guild/organization you join, and even then, abilities aren't really all that dependent on your guild. A bandit warrior can cast crystal magic after-all (with the right amulet). The only real distinction is that you can't cast rune magic unless you're a mage... and that doesn't matter since scrolls are available to everyone, and scrolls = runes, so... moot point.

This would require the boss to either have a multitude of weaknesses that would accommodate each play style available... or to simply lump it all into one way. It wouldn't be that the fire titan has a specific weakness to your specific character build, as that would require a complex character-recognition system, one that no game has ever really featured, it would be that the fire titan would have a multitude of weaknesses. In that case, why not just skip the 6 different weaknesses (or however many there would be to accommodate each play style) to simply 1 weakness of "reflect shit back, then bash with hammer"? It makes it much easier and timely - and considering this game heavily suffers from not having enough time to make it deeper I can see it being a very reasonable trade-off.

Roughly put, I'm happy the fire titan isn't just a random big beast with stats pumped to hell like the Dragons were in Gothic 2. Now THOSE were utterly disappointing (especially since all you had to do was summon a demon and hit it with a fire rain).

 

[Foxtrix]

I think one of my main gripes with the battle isn't exactly on how it develops or it's difficulty, but on how it ruined my suspension of disbelief. I mean, I can't imagine my character being capable of entering the chamber and killing the titan without knowing beforehand what he's up against, how the environmental gauntlet works, etc. Of course, in my case this is worsened because I fell too many times to the lava pit

I think that this mostly boils down to individual play style. I mean, some people would say that the lizardmen temples took too much reloading, I'd say "learn to fight them better" or something. Roughly put - it is a matter of opinion.

With the lizardmen it was different. Sure, it took some reloads the first times. But the same encounter normally only took a couple of reloads. And once you learn how to fight them, the next encounters are easier.

But the thing is, it's not difficult to imagine the character knowing how to fight them. With the boss, in my play experience, he would require precognition or something.

 

[Murk]

I half agree with you. In some capacity, you're warned by Ursegor of the follies of the Titan. But in regards to the whole disappearing floor and Zelda 3 style reflection of enemy's magic beams... yeah it's basically a matter of following the Floating Flashing Text In The Sky... which is somewhat ironic considering PB actually developed a full NPC to avoid that very problem in the beginning of the game (Sarah). In fact, PB has always gone out of its way to avoid this problem... in the Gothic games (minus Gothic 3) and in Risen the NPC trainers always actually TEACH you how to fight in actual dialog and don't just give you +1 to swordskill or whatever... and yet at the end they just drop that much loved detail they've always had.

Perhaps they could have had Ursegor teach you that you must harness the Titan's own attacks against him to be able to use your Titan Hammer against him or something... I mean, not that hard to figure out... or maybe read some cryptic texts throughout the game in the Temples?

Yeah, I agree. This is, in part, what I meant by the build-up to the Titan being very weak. Its like a random BBEG thrown at you and not one you're constantly striving to reach and have an actual Rivalry with... then again, it is also a borderline cosmic force so I guess I can see why they couldn't exactly have the fire titan show up to make fun of you and challenge you to a duel at a bar.

 

[Foxtrix]

I half agree with you. In some capacity, you're warned by Ursegor of the follies of the Titan. But in regards to the whole disappearing floor and Zelda 3 style reflection of enemy's magic beams... yeah it's basically a matter of following the Floating Flashing Text In The Sky... which is somewhat ironic considering PB actually developed a full NPC to avoid that very problem in the beginning of the game (Sarah). In fact, PB has always gone out of its way to avoid this problem... in the Gothic games (minus Gothic 3) and in Risen the NPC trainers always actually TEACH you how to fight in actual dialog and don't just give you +1 to swordskill or whatever... and yet at the end they just drop that much loved detail they've always had.

Now that you mention it, PB really did a fine job in Risen in this regard (building suspension of disbelief). Don't know about the other Gothics as I haven't played them yet. It's a pity they had to ruin it for me in the end. I wish they'd made the battle more challenging without sacrificing this aspect.

Anyway, great game. Hope they release an expansion.

 

[Murk]

If you did enjoy it thoroughly pick up Gothic 2. You'll feel like your playing the prequel to Risen, with just less polish overall. The expansion (Night of the Raven) adds a significant amount of content throughout the game as well, and makes enemies quite a bit tougher too.