Ridiculously hard strategy game battles

[Wyrmlord]

Here I am at the end of Legend Of Cao Cao, and I have to kill Zhuge Liang and Sun Quan.

This is the the enemy placement.

My troops are divided between the three gates to the city, and it is not possible for me to attack in any direction without my troops being flanked by some enemy unit or another, and some catapult firing on them from a distance. This is insanely messed up. This is no longer strategy, this is "How long can you keep you troops alive in the face of endless slaughter?" Being limited to narrow entrances into which enemies can choke you in, and pick you off one by one, this is madness.

And incidentally, why was Zhuge Liange, Kongming such a huge dick? I don't get these Romance Of The Three Kingdoms characters. What the hell does Kongming want? When Liu Bei and his brothers all got killed and decapitated by the agents of Southlands, and Liu San only wanted to surrender to the more powerful Cao Cao, he did not allow him to do so. And then Liu San gets killed in battle. Kongming, who was just supposed to be a strategist and not the ruler of the kingdom, just conveniently decides to decide for the ruler what is best for him. And yet, when Liu Bei ran off to attack the Southlands, he consented to it, as if he was just a subordinate, and not the one running the kingdom. What sort of asshole takes authority and then gives it up whenever it is best for him? And you'd think that after the western kingdom is destroyed, he'd join Cao Cao, but no, he joins the Southlands, the exact people who beheaded and defeated all of his masters. As if he just plain hates Cao Cao. But why? What did Cao Cao ever do to him? :evil:

 

[Zhuangzi]

I can't help you with the game, but in terms of Kongming, I seem to recall that he is regarded as an astute opportunist with no innate morals. This is based on actually reading the 2000 page novel. I don't think he has any real loyalty to anything.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I can't help you with the game, but in terms of Kongming, I seem to recall that he is regarded as an astute opportunist with no innate morals. This is based on actually reading the 2000 page novel. I don't think he has any real loyalty to anything.

Indeed. So what did that man actually want? Did he really think he would have a better chance with the people of the Southlands than siding with Cao Cao? The man's actions admit of no explanation.

Also, who is your favourite RotK character? Lu Bu? Jiang Xu? Liu Bei? Jia Xu? Guo Jia?

 

[Azrael the cat]

I think you've stated your main problem: your troops are divided. Try bringing 2, or even 3, of them into one force - obviously you'll be fired upon while doing that, but if you CAN bring them together you'll be better off. They're unlikely to be able to adjust their troop positions at the same pace, and they aren't well-placed to make counter-attacks through the sides you abandon. I'd say spend the first part combing your troops into one force and then commence your assault.

 

[feighnt]

hm. i've read the original novel (one of the english translations, anyway) - i never got the impression that Kongming was loyal only to himself at all.

btw... in the book, things dont seem to happen like how they, apparently, happened in your game, Wyrmlord. in the book, Guan Yu was killed by a coalition effort by both Wei and Wu - though the ultimate credit for his death was mostly laid on the shoulders of Wu's Lu Meng. after this, Zhuge Liang and many of the other politicians were able to convince Liu Bei from going to war with Wu, until Zhang Fei found out about his brother's death, and shamed Liu Bei into going to war. Zhang Fei rushed back to his province to rush his forces into battle immediately, but pushed two of his officers into mobilizing his forces to march in the morning - which they found impossible. when they told him this, he beat them severely, and the two conspired against Zhang Fei and assassinated him that night. after that, in spite of this obviously horrible omen, Liu Bei still was determined to go to war with Wu, and, as we know, that was a disaster. Liu Bei managed to return home, unharmed but deeply shamed and spiritually broken. he died shortly after.

anyway... concerning Zhuge Liang/Kongming...

when he finally accepted Liu Bei as his ruler, he was quite serious about it - to the point of even standing down when Liu Bei finally decided (after Kongming had tried his best to convince him otherwise, and almost succeeding, until Zhang Fei screwed it up) to set out on the disastrous campaign against Wu. Liu Bei was his leige, and he was utterly loyal to him.

in the original book, shortly before Liu Bei died, he talked with Kongming and told him to support his son the best he could - but, he told him, if his son didnt prove up to the task of ruling the kingdom, Liu Bei wanted Kongming to depose of him and take rulership of Shu himself. and, judging by how things went, it would've been much more beneficial if he actually DID.

in the book, he NEVER actually disobeys Liu Chan/Shan/San (man, how many ways are there to spell this guy's name??)... because of this, Kongming loses multiple campaigns against Wei which could've changed the balance of power in Shu's favour, possibly leading to Shu's eventual complete victory. every time Kongming wanted to go on campaign, he had to convince Liu Chan (and always was able to). after a lengthly campaign against the Nanman in the south, who were threatening Shu's southern boarder, he refocused his attention to Wei, in the north. in the last years of his life, he sent campaign after campaign - just about yearly or every two years - against Wei, and many times he was forced to withdraw, on the brink of victory, because his lord, Liu Chan, started to doubt Kongming (generally due to agents of Wei stirring up rumours). Kongming would dutifully return, dispel all doubts that Liu Chan had, but by that time the campaign was beyond salvaging so he'd wait a year or two before attacking again (occasionally Wei took the initiative and attacked, too, iirc). i could be wrong, but i dont recall any time he actually disobeyed Liu Chan, and, in the end, Kongming died without achieving his and Liu Bei's vision.

so... obviously, they changed a lot of the story for this game. which makes sense, since it's about Cao Cao (who, btw, actually died before Liu Bei, killed by the *ghost* of Guan Yu, WAY before Kongming died. after Liu Bei and Cao Cao died, the real masterminds of the conflicts between Shu and Wei were, respectively, Kongming and Sima Yi, though neither were the rulers of their kingdom, nor did either of them ever disobey their lords).

 

[Wyrmlord]

Ah so, Cao Cao was the one killed by the ghost of Guan Yu. In the game, it was the Southlands general instead who was driven made and killed by the said ghost.

Oh, and you mention Shu's campaign with Nanman. Wow, the game shows Nanman as being subordinated to the Shu, Fighting alongside them in the same army. In fact, it also shows Ma Teng as a Liu Bei subordinate, even though he was royalty himself. They never explained how he came to his side.

Anyway, from whatever I have seen in Wikipedia and this game, it always felt wierd to me that, while Cao Cao was shocked at the killing of his nephew/son by Jiang Xu's people, he was far more devastated at the death of Dian Wei. As if Dian Wei was more precious to him than his own relatives. I thought the Chinese were raised on filial piety.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I seem to recall that Guan Yu's ghost killed Lu Meng as well, but I only remember that blood poured from all his orifices as he swooned (actually, swooning happens at an alarming frequence in RotTK) and died.

PS: The best part is where Liu Bei rewards that one hunter for cooking his wife as dinner.

 

[feighnt]

vaarna: you just remembered the two greatest parts from the book :D the Liu Bei cannibalism scene was just amazing!

and, yeah, Guan Yu's ghost killed... not only Cao Cao, but also Lu Meng. in fact, shortly after Guan Yu died, a *shitload* of people died as a result. Xiahou Dun was another one who died due to the curse of Guan Yu.

wyrmlord: concerning the nanman. there actually WERE nanman allies, who went off with Liu Bei against Wu (the nanman werent completely united, though Meng Huo was kind of an over-king to them, or something like that, i think). but, after Liu Bei's death, some of the nanman saw a chance to gain by raiding southern Shu villages, which is what made Zhuge Liang decide to campaign against them (and this part really *did* take a really long time, maybe around ten or more years - Ma Chao, who stayed in Shu defending the northern boarder against Wei, had died of old age by the time Zhuge Liang had returned).

as far as Ma Teng, who was Ma Chao's dad... that seems odd to me. i could be wrong, my memory is hazy about the first half of the book, but i *think* Ma Teng died even before Shu was formed! but there could've been an alliance between them at some point, that i've forgotten, where Liu Bei might've been the effective "supreme commander" or something... dont forget that Liu Bei was actually related to the Emperor.

yeah, obviously, the game takes a lot of liberties. though i dont totally mind that, myself - i find it interesting when they do these sorts of "what if?" stories. there was a tactical rpg that koei made, called Dynasty Tactics, about RotK. the game had multiple endings - one ending i got, where i was playing as Shu, had Wei get eliminated, and Shu and Wu put aside their differences, made an alliance, and ruled a China divided in two! (which, i think, is a neat detail - in the original novel, at one point, Sun Quan actually muses about the possibility of Shu and Wu beating Wei and living in harmony, ruling their respective kindgoms together - but he was ultimately dissuaded from this, by, i think, Zhuge Jin, who was related to Zhuge Liang, who said something like "the sky cannot have two suns.")

 

[Wyrmlord]

Wow, Liu Bei had his own wife killed?

The game really portrays Liu Bei and his brothers as the most gentle and honorable souls who ever lived.

I think I need to either read the book or watch the TV series at some time.

There was this rather touching bit in the game, where Guan Yu temporarily swears loyalty to Cao Cao until he finds out whether his brother is alive. Now, Cao Cao wants to reel him in completely, and tries to bribe him in every way possible. And yet, Guan Yu can never stop thinking about his brothers, even though he is grateful to Cao Cao for his gifts. He fights loyally alongside him in battles. And yet, the moment he finds out that his brother is alive, he plans to leave.

Cao Cao decides to put up an Absent sign, at his office so that Guan Yu can not request his leave from him. And yet, Guan Yu never leaves, and keeps visiting the gate of Cao Cao's office every day to politely inform him. However, his sisters grow restless, and for their sake, he leaves. Cao Cao, suddenly feeling guilty, rushes to meet him at a bridge on a river. He expresses his thanks to Guan Yu and gives him a few gold coins as a show of appreciation. Guan Yu bears no ill will to him, and departs with him on good terms. Then Cao Cao muses, "How lucky his brothers are..."

 

[Zhuangzi]

Well, feighnt recalls the book's plot a lot better than I did. I'm impressed.

Anyway, I thought Liu Bei was easily the most sympathetic of the main characters. We are positioned to sympathise with his plight, and to see Cao Cao and his descendants as the enemy. Kongming came across as a very wily strategist.

 

[someone else]

The hunter's wife was killed and served to an unaware Liu Bei.

Guan Yu is worshipped as a God in a few countries and there are temples dedicated to him, you can read up on him on wikipedia.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Didn't Liu Bei also eat (or was that just slice n dice sacrifice?) the Wu ambassadors who told they were totally sorry about Guan Yu dying, after which he went on that fateful campaign against them. This is the part where Shu loses their divine providence that their actions have had with Zhang Fei and Guan Yu dead and Liu Bei dishonouring himself. Prior to that (and after it), the three brothers were indeed the very epitome of Chinese morality, until all of them ending up dead due to their character flaws.

I myself prefer Cao Cao the most of the protagonists, due to him being intelligent and honourable, but also pragmatic and without much aristocratic breeding. Though he too eventually fell prey to his own character flaw of being rather impulsive at times (since he got his fate dealt to him when he tried to kill that one Taoist sorceror). Actually, the book does a very good job in that it doesn't fully take sides in the conflict (despite being partial to Shu, and with Dong Zhuo and Lu Bu being total dicks), but rather about the fact that in the end none of the original contenders won anything from the decades of war (since Sima clan took over). Not to mention the morals in it are very interesting due to their traditional Chineseness.

And yes, it was the hunter's wife that was cooked. And he got mounds of gold as a reward for being such a dedicated host to visitors (he never got married again though).

EDIT: And in regards to the bleeding orifices, they counted the navel, penis and asshole among them.

 

[feighnt]

yeah - while Cao Cao was kind of a semi-villain, he was never totally so... the author managed to keep things from getting too black and white. the typical view is that he sometimes was a horrid person, but he was not some petty despot - he made laws, which he even applied to himself (well, partly - at one point, i vaguely recall him breaking one of his own laws, and he was going to execute himself for it but his officers stopped him). beside that, he had a grand vision, and was *mostly* being ruthless simply because it was efficient in achieving his vision (which, of course, he never succeeded at anyway).

i actually thought that one of the most beautiful, and sad, parts of the book was the recounting of Cao Cao's death... it was a long, drawn out affair, ending with a sigh and a tear. right after he died, there was a poem about him - there's lots of poetry in the book, most of which i have no strong feelings about one way or another, but *this* poem actually managed to move me. the basic message was "well, Cao Cao... he could be ruthless and all that, but that's not all he was. frankly, he was a complex and great man, so who are we to judge him, really?" that actually sounds kinda scummy, but it was worded better

i even thought Lu Bu was depicted with some sympathy in the book (though certainly not Dong Zhuo)... Lu Bu wasnt necessarily an *evil* man, precisely... just a *stupid* man who was far too easy to manipulate. every time, with Lu Bu, you see a particular pattern - he starts off, serving a certain lord, and he's totally content and (well, more or less) loyal. but then a rival sees him, decides they want Lu Bu to work for them, and they start to manipulate him by telling him about how his current employer didnt respect him and all that crap - Lu Bu starts to believe it, and ridiculously goes off and kills the guy and joins his new ruler, happy and loyal.

until the next guy comes along and tempts him away, and he repeats the process he was strong, but he really was a dimwit. you get the impression that, if nobody had tried to manipulate him, he would've happily lived his life serving whoever happened to be his lord without really questioning his place in society. or, that's what i thought, anyway.

oh, wyrmlord: my memory on this is pretty hazy, but that thing you told about Guan Yu serving, then leaving, Cao Cao - i believe that *did* happen in the book, more or less. did the game also include when Guan Yu tried to leave, but basically had to fight through a bunch of cities because Xiaohou Dun didnt want to let Guan Yu leave Cao Cao's employ alive, until finally Cao Cao realized what happened and told his men to stand down and let him leave?

oh, and, i vaarna - dont remember at all, about that thing with eating Wu ambassadors.

 

[RK47]

I used to think the same thing of Lu Bu till my cousin simply explained:

You don't kill one let alone TWO stepfathers in your lifetime.

Can you even trust this sort of person? Stupidity is an issue but outright betrayal leading to murder just marks him as a total 'villain' in my view. There's almost no redeeming value to this guy. I think the only reason why I would even take him in as Liu Bei was because I had Guan Yu and Zhang Fei on my side to keep me safe. Else, no dice.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I used to think the same thing of Lu Bu till my cousin simply explained:

You don't kill one let alone TWO stepfathers in your lifetime.

Can you even trust this sort of person? Stupidity is an issue but outright betrayal leading to murder just marks him as a total 'villain' in my view. There's almost no redeeming value to this guy. I think the only reason why I would even take him in as Liu Bei was because I had Guan Yu and Zhang Fei on my side to keep me safe. Else, no dice.

Lu Bu was just a fucked up man. Either way, he eventually was executed and he accepted his death. For being such a waste of a person, and yet also the greatest warrior of the Chinese lands, it was merely fitting that he would meet his end by losing a battle and being executed by the victor afterwards.

 

[RK47]

Accepted his death? Errr...didn't he promise Cao Cao he'd serve him? Only for Liu Bei to warn against it and had him executed?

 

[Wyrmlord]

Oh man, this videogame just shows a positive view of every character possible.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Yea, Lu Bu tried to bargain and beg for his life, and insulted and threatened Liu Bei after he advised Cao Cao to the contrary. The whole scene was about how he died like the dog he always was (despite being a mighty warrior), while his lieutenant Zhang Liao was spared by Cao Cao because he was ready to die like an honourable man.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Zhang Liao indeed turned out to be one of Cao Cao's most significant military personnel, and probably did far more under him than he did with Lu Bu.