Ressurection in RPGs

[denizsi]

Would physics be involved?

Kidding. I agree.

 

[Xor]

I honestly think resurrection is a bit of a catch-22 in RPGs. If you let party members die permanently and don't have resurrection then the average player will just reload when it happens, making it almost meaningless.

If you do have resurrection and it's common enough for people to take advantage of it then you have the problem of cheapening death, and I don't think I've ever played an RPG with easy resurrection that really showcased the problem with that - you'd think a villain would resurrect his minions after they die so they can fight you again.

Actually, come to think of it, I think there were a few instances of characters you had to kill in BG1 showing up in BG2, so that's one.

If you don't have permanent death, on the other hand, you risk cheapening combat and making the game too easy. This problem crops up in many modern RPGs such as DAO.

 

[DraQ]

Would physics be involved?

Kidding. I agree.

DENIZSI

Y U NO LIKE PHYSICS?

Especially when said physics would mostly involve factoring stuff like momentum into calculations and collision detection?

 

[Monkeysphere]

take ur larping to permadeathr nwn rp servers and leave my vidya games alone

 

[DraQ]

take ur larping to permadeathr nwn rp servers and leave my vidya games alone

Fucking 2010 newfags.

 

[Monkeysphere]

Fucking 2010 newfags.

Fucking 2007 wannabes

 

[DraQ]

Fucking 2010 newfags.

Fucking 2007 wannabes

Get off my Codex.

 

[Xor]

I'm glad I registered before the decline hit overdrive.

 

[Monkeysphere]

Fucking 2010 newfags.

Fucking 2007 wannabes

Get off my Codex.

oh wow looks i have a genuine spergout on my hands
ur in dire need of some hand made tailoring

 

[Dark Elf]

Another possibility with resurrection which to my knowledge has never been thoroughly explored in an RPG is treating it like an equilibrium. Well, there's TNO and the fact that someone in the multiverse would die each time he was revived to fuel his rebirth, but that's about it.

So, you decide to resurrect your companion. Not only do they return as something undead, you also have to steal the needed life force from another human being. Moral dilemma much?

Now, this doesn't really work if you have Vancian or Mana-based magic and easy access to nameless mobs of no consequence. Preferably you'd need rare, expensive and hard-to-come-by components (of which there are only enough for a few resurrections over the course of the entire game) and elaborate ritual, involving human sacrifice. Humans that are important to the plot.

Perhaps a reasonable twist would be that if someone gives their life to resurrect another willingly the fallen companion revives more or less unchanged (this is something I could see a company like Bioware abusing the hell out of however), whereas an unwilling sacrifice yields vampires and such. Imagine the drama if you do that to a paladin...

 

[DraQ]

Another possibility with resurrection which to my knowledge has never been thoroughly explored in an RPG is treating it like an equilibrium. Well, there's TNO and the fact that someone in the multiverse would die each time he was revived to fuel his rebirth, but that's about it.

So, you decide to resurrect your companion. Not only do they return as something undead, you also have to steal the needed life force from another human being. Moral dilemma much?

Now, this doesn't really work if you have Vancian or Mana-based magic and easy access to nameless mobs of no consequence. Preferably you'd need rare, expensive and hard-to-come-by components (of which there are only enough for a few resurrections over the course of the entire game) and elaborate ritual, involving human sacrifice. Humans that are important to the plot.

Perhaps a reasonable twist would be that if someone gives their life to resurrect another willingly the fallen companion revives more or less unchanged (this is something I could see a company like Bioware abusing the hell out of however), whereas an unwilling sacrifice yields vampires and such. Imagine the drama if you do that to a paladin...

Sounds interesting enough and limits the ripple effect decently. Of course you'd still have people in positions of power that could afford resurrection rather easily, but it could at least be done interestingly, especially if unwilling sacrifice would corrupt them somewhat. Of course, lack of corruption wouldn't mean nice here - propaganda and other tools could be used to provide a steady stream of technically willing individuals.


Do proceed.

 

[denizsi]

That reminds me of Conan The Barbarian.

Spoiler

When Conan is mortally wounded and is comatose, the wizard, played by Mako (who also narrates the movie), summons spirits to help him recover. He conveys the spirits' demand to the company that saving him would cost a life (with the implication that not just any life but a consenting volunteer to strike a bargain with) and Valeria -Conan's love interest- agrees, mumbling words "whatever it costs".

Later in the movie, when a recovered Conan & co are escaping the keep of Thulsa Doom which they have just pillaged, Thulsa Doom manages to mortally wound Valeria with a snake arrow and it is implied that it happened because of the previous deal.

Still, I doubt something like that in a game could work with any emotional impact, without which it would be a practice in teh lulz. It barely worked in Arcanum and I'd bet that lots of people didn't actually give a crap. So I think social stigma or that kind of practical things with an appliance in basic game mechanics is an easier and also a far better way to pull it. It will practically impact and hamper you whether you are care about your party or not.

 

[Daemongar]

Still, I doubt something like that in a game could work with any emotional impact, without which it would be a practice in teh lulz. It barely worked in Arcanum and I'd bet that lots of people didn't actually give a crap. So I think social stigma or that kind of practical things with an appliance in basic game mechanics is an easier and also a far better way to pull it. It will practically impact and hamper you whether you are care about your party or not.

It worked in Serpent Isle, but that was a little more scripted than a random death. I can kind of see where you are going on this with your Conan example, though and that is that characters should have the option to bring along several ladies that the player can "switch lives with" when they die. The player would have to get to know them first, but eventually the girls would have to give their lives to a wizard to save the main char or one of his henchmen. Maybe they could get new ladies in town to replace the ones that die during difficult dungeons and whatnot, and (of course) you'd need a wizard in your party.

 

[denizsi]

That was just an example that I find fitting, not an actual suggestion. The way you put it sounds very exploitative.

I haven't played Serpent Isle, btw. How did it work there?

 

[Daemongar]

That was just an example that I find fitting, not an actual suggestion. The way you put it sounds very exploitative.

I haven't played Serpent Isle, btw. How did it work there?

In U7, you would die, then wake up in a bed. Most likely Paws in the Fellowship hall, with a story about how Elizabeth and Abraham found you and brought you back there.

In SI, you would die, then wake up on Monk Isle (the... Karnaxian? Monks would save you by summoning you to their isle and heal you.) Then you would return to some vacinity to the area you died in.

Actually, it wasn't handled too bad.

 

[Crichton]

I've always been a fan of no resurrection and party members simply being knocked out if they took too much damage. I don't think reloading makes party-member death meaningless (you still have to find a way to win the fight without anyone dying.), but if you can routinely eliminate the entire enemy party without even one of your people being taken out of action, the encounter was too easy.

The D&D "death's door" system sort of splits the difference by allowing death while making most KOs harmless.

I'm also OK with just making squad members more disposable but most character progression systems are so nuts that you're replacing a demi-god with a newborn babe.

 

[bhlaab]

I love it when games with resurrection also have dramatic death scenes.

Also when you kill the final boss and its like "well that's the end of that!"

 

[JarlFrank]

Too much damage leading to a KO is my personal preferred method. Party members can be permanently killed if they're repeatedly shot/hacked at while being unconscious, or by bleeding out so you have to bandage them.

This would also add the tactical option of carrying a heavily wounded body out of a dangerous zone.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Dark Heart of Uukrul makes you carry the dead -- and decaying -- body to the mausoleum for resurrection.

A dead character can only be resurrected at the Mausoleum, but the chance of resurrection succeeding declines as the corpse ages. A special corpse bar, replacing the hit bar, shows this state.

I think that's a neat approach.

 

[SacredPath]

In U7, you would die, then wake up in a bed. Most likely Paws in the Fellowship hall, with a story about how Elizabeth and Abraham found you and brought you back there.

I think resurrection has to be divided into at least two categories for any meaningful discussion. One is the method you described, the other is a method that requires some action on your part.

Personally I think you can get the most out of virtually any RPG by playing strictly without reloads once you get the hang of it. Chances are you will die at least once though, especially if the game includes critical strikes. Which means I'm a proponent of resurrection because it allows me to play in a challenging yet enjoyably relaxed way. Baldur's Gate II for example was marred for me by the fact that once the main character dies, it's definitely over, and the same goes for PCs who got "chunked". Add the very limited number of available PCs, especially for evil parties, and you got a real downer.

Now the method of resurrection that doesn't require any action on your part is decidedly too cheesy. Die... wake up... die... wake up... it encourages a mind-numbing style of play. Resurrection should always have some requirements. This should include either some very high material cost (be it gold or some other possession with limited availability), the need to be physically present at some fixed location (like a temple), the need for party members to actually carry the dead bodies so they have to free up carrying capacity, etc. It doesn't have to be free, it doesn't have to be unlimited, but I think some sort of resurrection that rewards you if you have been playing efficiently; spent your funds wisely, didn't waste powerful items, displayed a good grasp of the game's mechanics.

My take on resurection in several games:

1.) Ultima 7: Interesting because different methods of resurrection were used. while resurrection of the main char was cheesy, resurrection of companions was more interesting. To carry your companions' bodies back to LB, you often had to get rid of excess equipment to free up carrying capicity. An alternative was getting Jaana in your party, who had some limited ability to resurrect. Later on you could also cast the spell yourself, which is another cheesy and overpowered method.

2.) Wizardry 8: this game has balancing issues, and it affects resurrection too. Resurrection powder is just too cheesy, especially because it:

- restocks at shops periodically

- money is never a problem if you abuse alchemy

In itself the idea was neat in that it actually required you to develop your Artifacts skill. Fumble that powder, there go 2000 gp, though as I said this would have required some limited funds too.
You don't have to carry the bodies of the dead as this happens automatically, but at least the weight of equipment is then spread across the surviving party members. Tbh, I never researched wether the dead body of a PC alone would cause other member's share of weight to go up, but I doubt it.

3.) Arcanum: Allowing for resurrection on both tech and magickal characters was nice, as was the option of having your companions resurrect each other and you. Unfortunately here too gold was never a problem if you didn't mind abusing some glitches in the system. In fact the way resurrection worked for tech characters had more potential; you had to build the device(s) yourself, and they were weighing a ton each, which was a lot more limiting than buying infinite resurrection scrolls (in theory at least, unfortunately the ingredients for the resurrector were too common).