Real Battletech Game Discussion

[Cael]

I was messing around in Megamek to see how crazy things can get with the new rule, and came up with this:

Skirmisher SKM-1A

Mass: 85 tons
Chassis: Composite Biped
Power Plant: 340 XL
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: Improved
Jump Capacity: 210 meters
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 Small Pulse Laser
3 Large Pulse Laser
Cost: 25,193,793 C-bills

Type: Skirmisher
Technology Base: Mixed (Experimental)
Tonnage: 85
Battle Value: 2,778

Equipment Mass
Internal Structure Composite 4.5
Engine 340 XL 13.5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 7
Double Heat Sink 15 [30] 5
Compact Gyro 6
Small Cockpit 2
Armor Factor (Ferro) 259 13.5

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 27 42
Center Torso (rear) 12
R/L Torso 18 28
R/L Torso (rear) 8
R/L Arm 14 28
R/L Leg 18 34


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Improved Jump Jet LL 2 - 2.0
Targeting Computer CT 4 - 4.0
Small Pulse Laser RT 1 2 1.0
2 Improved Jump Jets RT 4 - 4.0
Large Pulse Laser RT 2 10 6.0
Double Heat Sink LA 2 - 1.0
Small Pulse Laser LT 1 2 1.0
2 Improved Jump Jets LT 4 - 4.0
Partial Wing RT/LT 3/3 - 4.5
Large Pulse Laser LT 2 10 6.0
Improved Jump Jet RL 2 - 2.0
Large Pulse Laser HD 2 10 6.0
Double Heat Sink RA 2 - 1.0


It is for use on the tabletop game/Megamek.

Any critiques?

 

[Hobo Elf]

Just one critique. XL Engines are a death sentence.

 

[Cael]

Just one critique. XL Engines are a death sentence.

Clan ones aren't as bad. However, this 'mech is designed to not get hit (7 jump + large pulse lasers + targeting computer).

 

[Hobo Elf]

Just one critique. XL Engines are a death sentence.

Clan ones aren't as bad. However, this 'mech is designed to not get hit (7 jump + large pulse lasers + targeting computer).

With 7 jump you get a +3 evasion modifier if you move the full distance. It's still a risky move as +3 isn't as reliable amount of defense as you'd always hope based on my experience on the table. And then certain weapons like the LB-X which loves to eat XLEs also gets a natural -1 modifier to its hit rolls so need to be aware of that. Well, this could easily go to a back-and-forth of what-if scenarios, but my stance is that the XL Engine is a very risky piece of hardware. I should know, the Axman is one of my favorite mechs. Sometimes I'm lucky and nothing bad happens to it, and sometimes it gets blown apart fast and easy. There's a certain level of RNG always. And anyway I don't think you need to min/max and hats off if that wasn't your goal. A lot of the standard mechs are poorly optimized mechs but it's more interesting and flavorful since they tend to follow in-lore reasons for their strengths and sometimes glaring weaknesses. Designing the ultimate unwinnable mech is missing the point of the game imo.

 

[Cael]

Just one critique. XL Engines are a death sentence.

Clan ones aren't as bad. However, this 'mech is designed to not get hit (7 jump + large pulse lasers + targeting computer).

With 7 jump you get a +3 evasion modifier if you move the full distance. It's still a risky move as +3 isn't as reliable amount of defense as you'd always hope based on my experience on the table. And then certain weapons like the LB-X which loves to eat XLEs also gets a natural -1 modifier to its hit rolls so need to be aware of that. Well, this could easily go to a back-and-forth of what-if scenarios, but my stance is that the XL Engine is a very risky piece of hardware. I should know, the Axman is one of my favorite mechs. Sometimes I'm lucky and nothing bad happens to it, and sometimes it gets blown apart fast and easy. There's a certain level of RNG always. And anyway I don't think you need to min/max and hats off if that wasn't your goal. A lot of the standard mechs are poorly optimized mechs but it's more interesting and flavorful since they tend to follow in-lore reasons for their strengths and sometimes glaring weaknesses. Designing the ultimate unwinnable mech is missing the point of the game imo.

+4, actually, for 7 jump (break points are 3, 5, 7, 10, 14, plus 1 more for jumping).

Basically the premise of the 'mech is that it hangs around medium range (10-12 hexes for the large pulse lasers) using full 7 jump. It tries for any trees or cover it can find. That basically gives +4 (jump), +2 (medium range for most weapons), +1 (light woods). With a base gunnery 4 enemy pilot, you are looking at 11+ to-hit prior to any movement modifiers that the enemy has done. Even the enemy's LB-X cluster rounds will have a hard time hitting you if he moved at all.

You, on the other hand, have -3 to-hit modifier from the pulse and targeting computer, and so nullifies your movement modifier penalty to your gunnery.

You also have near max armour for a 85-ton chassis. Mind you, if that armour gets breached, you are in serious trouble, as losing a side torso will kill that 7 jump, and you become a sitting duck that your weapons load (unlike other assaults) won't be able to offset.

 

[Hobo Elf]

+4 is when you move 10-17 hexes. +3 is 7-9 hexes. Yeah forgot it was +1 +the movement. +4 is a bit safer.

 

[Cael]

+4 is when you move 10-17 hexes. +3 is 7-9 hexes.

+1 extra for jumping. Your number is for running.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Well, as you said, if you get breached (or worse, an unlucky critical hit) you'll be in trouble. You'll just have to try the mech on the battlefield and see how it performs against different setups. It's an interesting concept to have a heavy/assault mech not be kitted out entirely with just weapons but be more defensive. Upon further looking and thinking about your mech it kind of reminds me of the Jade Phoenix, though that thing has a way higher BV.

 

[Nathaniel3W]

Just one critique. XL Engines are a death sentence.

It's been forever since I designed my own mech, and I was using whatever rules were active in 1999 or so. From what I remember, XL engines freed up a lot of weight for more armor and guns. Are you saying they're a death sentence because they're more likely to get hit, with the extra space they take up? How often do your battles hinge on a mech that has taken structural damage to the torso?

Back when I played, if you lost an arm or a leg, excess damage from that location (including from the hit that destroyed the limb) automatically transferred to the torso on that side. Is that still how the rules work? How often does that destroy a section of torso?

 

[Cael]

Just one critique. XL Engines are a death sentence.

It's been forever since I designed my own mech, and I was using whatever rules were active in 1999 or so. From what I remember, XL engines freed up a lot of weight for more armor and guns. Are you saying they're a death sentence because they're more likely to get hit, with the extra space they take up? How often do your battles hinge on a mech that has taken structural damage to the torso?

Back when I played, if you lost an arm or a leg, excess damage from that location (including from the hit that destroyed the limb) automatically transferred to the torso on that side. Is that still how the rules work? How often does that destroy a section of torso?

Side torsos tend to be the first things that go. That is because of several reasons:

Hit Location - At 6 or 8, the side torsos are the most likely location to get hit after the centre torso.
Arm Damage - All damage to the arm transfers into the respective torso once it is destroyed. The arm is the next most likely location to be hit after the side torso.
Leg Damage - All damage to the leg transfers into the respective torso once it is destroyed. It is the least likely part to get hit after the head, BUT a kick is guaranteed to hit the leg, and kicks do a boatload of damage.
Armour Distribution - It has the same maximum armour as the legs but spread front and back. That means in practice, it has the lowest armour of any section barring the head (unless you are a light).

Clan XL engines have only 2 slots in the side torso, so losing one side torso isn't game ending. However, this particular 'mech is an assault with the weapons of a typical medium and the speed of a light. Its mobility is its biggest survival factor. Taking out a side torso will mean that its mobility is halved, and you end up with an assault 'mech with the weaponry of a light 'mech. This is very, very bad to say the least. To top it off, in order to mount even the pretty pathetic weapons spread (for an assault) that it has, it is using Composite internals. Those things take double damage from all sources.

Now that I have had time to think about it more, I realised that I can drop the two small pulse lasers and lower arm/hand actuators for a Chameleon LPS and 2 extra double heat sinks. It will overheat slightly, but it adds an addition to-hit penalty at medium/long range to anyone trying to target it. It will also allow the 'mech to flip its arms at anything behind it going for a backstab.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Just one critique. XL Engines are a death sentence.

It's been forever since I designed my own mech, and I was using whatever rules were active in 1999 or so. From what I remember, XL engines freed up a lot of weight for more armor and guns. Are you saying they're a death sentence because they're more likely to get hit, with the extra space they take up?

With XL engines you are increasing the chance to be critically hit in your engine by two, or by 2/3rds if you're a Clanner. Normal engines take up 3 critical slots in the upper and another 3 critical slots in the lower center torso area. With XL engines you are adding another 3/2 in the left torso and 3/2 in the right torso (3 for IS, 2 for Clans). Three hits into your engine and your done. The first two hits lower your heat dissipation which is also something you often have to watch as mechs that use XL engines tend to have tight margins for heat management and a loss will start tipping the balance against you. It's a risky tradeoff.
I've not used any mechs like the OP but I want to try the Jade Phoenix one day, so then I'll get a better look at an evasive mech that's similar to his design. I tend to favor missile boats/snipers and brawlers, jumping and evading isn't really a thing I often do myself.

 

[Cael]

Just one critique. XL Engines are a death sentence.

It's been forever since I designed my own mech, and I was using whatever rules were active in 1999 or so. From what I remember, XL engines freed up a lot of weight for more armor and guns. Are you saying they're a death sentence because they're more likely to get hit, with the extra space they take up?

With XL engines you are increasing the chance to be critically hit in your engine by two, or by 2/3rds if you're a Clanner. Normal engines take up 3 critical slots in the upper and another 3 critical slots in the lower center torso area. With XL engines you are adding another 3/2 in the left torso and 3/2 in the right torso (3 for IS, 2 for Clans). Three hits into your engine and your done. The first two hits lower your heat dissipation which is also something you often have to watch as mechs that use XL engines tend to have tight margins for heat management and a loss will start tipping the balance against you. It's a risky tradeoff.
I've not used any mechs like the OP but I want to try the Jade Phoenix one day, so then I'll get a better look at an evasive mech that's similar to his design. I tend to favor missile boats/snipers and brawlers, jumping and evading isn't really a thing I often do myself.

The original concept 'mech was the Viper/Black Python (the 70-ton 'mech, not the 40-ton omni). In my circle, this type of 'mech is called a Viper-style 'mech. Basically targeting computer + large pulse lasers on a jumping chassis.

The Goshawk/Vapour Eagle is another Viper-style 'mech.

The issue I had with those is that they had a bunch of medium pulse lasers and machine guns, which does nothing for the design concept. You want to stay as far away as possible while remaining viable. That meant the large pulse lasers for the range.

 

[Nathaniel3W]

The only time I ever saw a custom 'mech with jump jets and a targeting computer was purpose-built to get behind enemies and then hit their rear torso with everything. For that, weapons with maximum damage per weight were preferred. Range wasn't a consideration.

With jump jets you get to choose the direction face when landing, right? So no one should ever be attacking your back? So you wouldn't ever need to flip your arms backwards. (That must be a new rule. I don't remember 'mechs doing that when I played.)

 

[Cael]

The only time I ever saw a custom 'mech with jump jets and a targeting computer was purpose-built to get behind enemies and then hit their rear torso with everything. For that, weapons with maximum damage per weight were preferred. Range wasn't a consideration.

With jump jets you get to choose the direction face when landing, right? So no one should ever be attacking your back? So you wouldn't ever need to flip your arms backwards. (That must be a new rule. I don't remember 'mechs doing that when I played.)

No one should be, but it is good to have insurance. It is not as if you are going to be closing in and punching someone, which is the main reason for hand actuators.

Arm flipping has always been there. The Rifleman is notorious for doing that, thanks to one Michael Stackpole and Justin Xiang Allard.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i'd use xl engines only on very very light mechs which are going to die in a single hit anyway or on extreme long range boats who're never going to see real combat. maybe it's because i'm a noob myself, but they always felt to me like traps. "oh, look, more space for weapons and boom, survival just halved and it died before doing anything". big mechs are big in order to take damage, xls take this advantage away.

 

[Cael]

i'd use xl engines only on very very light mechs which are going to die in a single hit anyway or on extreme long range boats who're never going to see real combat. maybe it's because i'm a noob myself, but they always felt to me like traps. "oh, look, more space for weapons and boom, survival just halved and it died before doing anything". big mechs are big in order to take damage, xls take this advantage away.

I have had fairly good results with XL-engined brawlers, but that is likely because most stock 'mechs are not designed with effective weapons in the centreline. Once you take out the two sides, they are useless anyway, so no different to something with an XL engine. Once you get into custom built zombie 'mechs, then the difference become apparent.

 

[PsihoKekec]

There is always a question of more firepower/manoeuvrability vs. more survivability. For me, more firepower works better, XL-engine mechs might last longer, but at reduced combat potential, so in general higher combat potential of XL-engine shifts the balance in fight more than safety of standard engines, even with BV balancing. I do try to avoid XL-engines in 3/5 mechs though, too high chances of backstabbing by lighter mechs.

 

[Cael]

There is always a question of more firepower/manoeuvrability vs. more survivability. For me, more firepower works better, XL-engine mechs might last longer, but at reduced combat potential, so in general higher combat potential of XL-engine shifts the balance in fight more than safety of standard engines, even with BV balancing. I do try to avoid XL-engines in 3/5 mechs though, too high chances of backstabbing by lighter mechs.

The BV system is retarded. It punishes speed hard, and certain other things, including the targeting computer and even armour is insanely overpriced.