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Randomizing C&C.

TNO

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Most choices and consequences stuff has two flaws.

1) It's often really obvious what consequences your choice will have, with no hint that often you don't have laser-precise knowledge of what the future will hold. It also plays lip-service to the conceit that the player character is a demi-god who can bend the game world to his will.

2) Save + reload exploits and walkthroughs mean that, even if a game is bold enough to make it difficult, then meta-gaming can lead you to make the 'right' choice.

So my solution is to make the consequences variable. So choice A leads to a 60% chance of consequence 1, 30% of c2, and 10% of C3, and so on. Thus instead of infallibly choosing a result, you instead are choosing between various probability distributions, which are not revealed to you directly (although, obviously, they should usually resemble what the choice seems to predict: sensible choices should bring a higher chance of good results).

This I think gives more organic model of how decision making really works: you can fluke out even if you fuck up, and conversely you really can do 'everything right' and still things go horribly wrong. So what're the problems?

There might be principled objections to having exactly the same choices turn out differently, but I don't see why: the player character shouldn't have omnipotence over the game world, and so its reasonable to say some things are simply outside of his control. Suppose (following ME2) he assigns his personel under his command in the optimal way to achieve the mission. Yet that shouldn't guarantee they'll succeed. Maybe they just catch a stray bullet or whatever.

This system can still be meta-gamed, if only by pooling playthrough data or directly reverse engineering the game. But there isn't going to be a good way to obscure the mapping of choices onto consequences, so there's no defence against this sort of meta-gaming - but it still won't guarantee the optimal result. However, the bigger risk is the player just saving and reloading the choice until he gets the consequence. The simplest way to stop this is to ensure the consequences hit a fair amount of play time after the choice is made.

Final issue is implementation. It probably requires more work to develop an array of plausible consequences than the 'this or that' decision which is common. Moreover, it might be difficult to constrain limits to this: it seems unfair for the player to fail just because he kept getting unlucky, but it might be hard to balance this imperative besides maintaining genuine risk.

Thoughts?
 

JarlFrank

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Sounds pretty awesome. Going to post more detailed thoughts later.

Requires a lot of work to pull off properly, though.
 

Phelot

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I do like the idea TNO and yet haven't really seen it in any RPGs. It does remind me of Crusader Kings and how everything is based on percentages.

I'd like to say though that I've been extremely disappointed with most modern games that hype C&C. Most of them make, as you say, the consequences very obvious and also do too much to remind the player that they're walking into C&C.

The other issue is that developers don't seem interested in offering realistic consequences. For example in The Witcher, siding with the elves and you get the Order as enemies. Side with the Order and you get elves as enemies. Side with order and they win in the last chapter and side with elves then... you get the picture. Every consequence has a polar opposite and it seems to be this way in most games.

This is why I tend not to like it when games set out to have C&C as a feature.

What I prefer instead and what I also consider to be C&C would be what we had in FO2. I've used it as an example for this before and yes I know FO2 was goofy, but I liked it's handling of the player's actions: If you want to kill the geezer in NCR even though it fucks up quests and endings with Lynette, you could. If you wanted to pick a side in New Reno without finishing all quests, without hearing all the sides, you could. And yet you wouldn't necessarily know that any choices are even occurring. You just did what you wanted and the game world would react.

Obviously a lot of it was broken and just plain not done well, but all in all it pulled off C&C without having to have red tape all around and instant cut scenes showing off your consequences.
 

JarlFrank

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Deus Ex and Arcanum are two good examples of C&C done well (as in - not shoved in your face and not-so-obvious consequences).
 
In My Safe Space
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I thought about this idea some time ago. I would also add some characters having different personalities and motivations on different play-troughs.
 

janjetina

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This effectively decreases player's degree of control, which is a bad thing. It won't discourage reloading, on the contrary. If you want to discourage reloading, balance the outcomes of different options. However, I don't think that reloading should be discouraged - in essence it would mean devoting resources to appease the morons who "reload mine" for the best solution. Instead you should just work on appeasing the players who play the game normally and judge it by the strength of content.

The best overall approach is to increase the number of choices with delayed outcomes and the number of choices with cumulative outcomes (where a combination of choices, each with its own weight, would contribute to one of a few outcomes). If you choose the approach with cumulative outcomes, your idea might work, but certain choices would have to prune certain outcomes.
 
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I was thinking about this idea just recently. It really does give the player a lot of the feeling of hidden depth. If a character turns against them, the player has to think of the total sum of interactions he has made. Instead of picking out a discrete decision that changed the game, a player is left with mentally constructing his own view of the character and why he made an action. This will always be far more interesting and complicated then anything the game designer could hope to make up.
 
In My Safe Space
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janjetina said:
This effectively decreases player's degree of control, which is a bad thing. It won't discourage reloading, on the contrary. If you want to discourage reloading, balance the outcomes of different options. However, I don't think that reloading should be discouraged - in essence it would mean devoting resources to appease the morons who "reload mine" for the best solution. Instead you should just work on appeasing the players who play the game normally and judge it by the strength of content.
You can do all the rolls at the start of the game. I think that the main thing done by random consequences would be adding replayability by making every play-trough (Each PCs story) different.
It would be nice if Fallout would have such thing. After 300th play-trough the predictability lessens the appeal of the game a bit.
 

Zeus

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One of the greatest action RPGs of all time, Shadowrun for Genesis, has incredible randomized C&C. My favorite example which I've quoted for the last fifteen years:

You're walking along and a screen pops up with a picture of a man laying in the street. He's covered in blood and begging for help.

You can choose to help him, attack him, or ignore him.

If you help, he might thank you and give you a reward once the EMT arrives. OR he might turn out to be a vampire, the blood really that of his last victim, with you lined up as the main course. Obviously, the vampire outcome is going to be a problem whether you help or attack him, but if ignore him and walk past, he just lays there waiting to ambush his next victim. Of course, if you ignore him and he turns out to be genuinely dying, you miss out on the reward (and a bit of karma, I think).

There are several of these multiple-choice encounters with randomized outcomes. It's one of the reasons Shadowrun for Genesis is one of my alltime favorite games. It keeps the game fresh, keeps the player on their toes, and there's no save/load cheese because there's no way of knowing when one of these random encounters are going to pop up.
 

DraQ

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TNO said:
But there isn't going to be a good way to obscure the mapping of choices onto consequences, so there's no defence against this sort of meta-gaming
Oh, but there is. Simple and obvious, though hard to implement:
Procedurally generated, emergent gameplay.

However, the bigger risk is the player just saving and reloading the choice until he gets the consequence. The simplest way to stop this is to ensure the consequences hit a fair amount of play time after the choice is made.

The simplest and only way (unless you count forced hardcore, which is pretty bad in a long game with structured plot and meaningful combat, or reload screw I proposed). In any case, this kind of major, plot altering randomization is probably the best reload inducer ever devised, so without some damn effective safeguards to deter the player from reloading again and again, this is bound to be one of the suckiest innovashuns ever.

Final issue is implementation. It probably requires more work to develop an array of plausible consequences than the 'this or that' decision which is common.
Or does it? Some decisions can work on the same set of outcomes with different probabilities assigned.
I don't see how it is any different from avoiding the exponential explosion in deterministic cases.

Moreover, it might be difficult to constrain limits to this: it seems unfair for the player to fail just because he kept getting unlucky, but it might be hard to balance this imperative besides maintaining genuine risk.
Indeed. Such game should be optimized in regards to edge conditions.

Thoughts?
Yes.
 

denizsi

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I've thought on the exact same problem with similar solutions. I've decided that every situation, every backstory element would have at least 2 slightly to wildly different histories predetermined when you start a new game so you can never be completely sure of the meta-context of a situation when you're about to make choices, and likewise, at least as many direct consequences and more indirect consequences, predetermined or with a possibility of being randomized on each reload.

Like Zeus' example, a seemingly wounded man lying on the ground. Based on what context was predetermined when you started the game, he could be a vampire lying in wait or a really wounded man. Additionally, if he were a vampire, he could be lying in wait to make snack food of the unsuspecting victim, to kidnap him/her, to make him/her his slave. And if you avoided him, somebody else he ate/enslaved could affect you in some way in future as well.

Mine also includes a certain "plot map" to build your own plots and objectives by associating NPCs, events, concepts and actions with each other on a flow chart, to procedurally bring into existence the associated choices (instead of trying to accumulate a do-anything-anytime kind of massive sandbox approach. Still similar but with less content-building -which can reach massive amounts in sandbox games- and with immediate feedback on plot map, on whether what you're trying to do is possible at all), closely related to branching consequences and how they would diverge depending on procedurally created and carried out objectives based on lots of factors invisible to the player -much like Daggerfall's reputation system, except less ambitious and "more working", but that's a little beyond the scope of original subject, I guess.
 

denizsi

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DraQ said:
In any case, this kind of major, plot altering randomization is probably the best reload inducer ever devised, so without some damn effective safeguards to deter the player from reloading again and again, this is bound to be one of the suckiest innovashuns ever.

I've thought about that too. I can't find my related posts now, but it involves limiting the range of the choices (and the consequences) you will get through every other choice, while also branching out to other things, with every prior choice you make, be it a meta-choice (travel time, priority paid between quests etc.) or a dialogue-plot choice made.

It also extends to dice rolls and shitty situations. There comes certain points in every encounter that there will be a time when a limited range of possible outcomes will be predetermined based on your recent choices so no amount of reloads will ever change them. I can't remember the specifics now, though. Possible that I've linked to it in the monkey project thread.

I'm also leaning towards eliminating the side-quests business almost completely. A big range of "side quests", particular combinations of which constitutes certain main quest branches, where you never do side quests just for munching and every few quest you may choose to do instead of another few may mean different paths.
 

denizsi

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Awor Szurkrarz said:
janjetina said:
This effectively decreases player's degree of control, which is a bad thing. It won't discourage reloading, on the contrary. If you want to discourage reloading, balance the outcomes of different options. However, I don't think that reloading should be discouraged - in essence it would mean devoting resources to appease the morons who "reload mine" for the best solution. Instead you should just work on appeasing the players who play the game normally and judge it by the strength of content.
You can do all the rolls at the start of the game. I think that the main thing done by random consequences would be adding replayability by making every play-trough (Each PCs story) different.
It would be nice if Fallout would have such thing. After 300th play-trough the predictability lessens the appeal of the game a bit.

That sometimes makes me think that a mod on Fallout to expand on such possibilities would be a perfect practicefor this kind of thing, due to the already established everything; in a game most here love to play multiple times.

I've always wanted to see that the implied urgency of quests and the order you went through them actually did matter into their outcomes, eg. do you go for the raiders first or the scorpions? You may find the Shady Sands overrun by... hmm I've given this example before, here in time limits thread.
 

bhlaab

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Sort of renders the actual choice part of it meaningless...
 

KalosKagathos

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Causality, motherfucker, ever heard of it? Unless there's a clear reason why events may unfold differently even if you do the exact same thing (maybe a Van Buren-esque rival party), this is the dumbest idea ever.
 

denizsi

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Experience everything in one go and hand holding FTW, eh?

Absolutely nothing needs to be clear to the player.
 

Tycn

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And if it's a percentage chance, you'll still get the 'obvious' consequence most of the time. There'll just be enough random fuckups to keep things interesting.
 
In My Safe Space
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bhlaab said:
Sort of renders the actual choice part of it meaningless...
It is meaningful to the player's experience during that play-through.
The actual choice part becomes meaningless when the player gains a pre-knowledge of the consequences just because he played the game before.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
What I'd like to see would be a game where NPC reaction to you is greatly dependent on what you do, but always has a random chance.

Like, say, you work for that mage but intend on double-crossing him. The more he knows about your efforts to actually work against him, the higher the chance that he will betray you later on.

Or say you have two factions, both fighting each other, and you can either choose to join one of the two or negotiate between them. You will never be able to make peace between them or make one of the factions win the war, but you will be able to influence the chance there is for either event. Like, help your faction destroy an important resource camp of the other, and raise the chance of your faction's victory in the ending slides by 15%. But there would never be any action that raises any available ending to 100%.
 

KalosKagathos

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denizsi said:
Experience everything in one go and hand holding FTW, eh?
No. Having a set conclusion for a given course of actions != having only one conclusion for a quest.
Absolutely nothing needs to be clear to the player.
The details do not need to be clear, but the factor that causes randomness needs to be pinpointed.

DraQ said:
LOL i completely missed the point!one1
 
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KalosKagathos said:
Causality, motherfucker, ever heard of it? Unless there's a clear reason why events may unfold differently even if you do the exact same thing (maybe a Van Buren-esque rival party), this is the dumbest idea ever.

The cause of events is abstracted. If someone happens that the player didn't intend or directly cause, it is inferred that it was caused by the actions of other characters in the game. Essentially, instead of fully simulating the daily interactions of every character in the game to a high point of detail and having every character's actions affecting every other character in a tangled web, we are just partially randomizing some things. In the end, the same gameplay mechanic is reached: sometimes shit happens because of things outside the control of your character, sometimes even despite your character's best efforts.
 

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