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Random numbers - essential in RPGs or not? Discuss!

Hobo Elf

Arcane
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Platypus Planet
Maybe it works for some games, but it's not a good universal solution. In games like Etrian Odyssey where some tank builds rely on evading enemies as close to 100% of the time as possible a system like this would be catastrophic and make such builds useless.
Im not sure I understand... Are you bringing up some glass cannon tank as example? And it is bad that he will get eventually hit as will die? Is it some sort of reload build?
Because let me be clear: it also works the other way around. If you get hit then your chance of evading next hit goes up.

The idea is to not get hit at all because you don't wear any equipment as an evade tank. You might be able to tank one hit at most, but it's likely you'll die from the first hit that connects. Most likely You get the RNG so high that it becomes reliable, but there's always a chance that things won't go your way. You probably won't have to reload anything since that's what rez spells and items are for, though it is always a possibility. You mitigate the RNG further by having high damage classes that unload heaps of damage as fast as possible. The less turns an enemy is alive the less chances you give them to get that % chance to kill your tank. Because of that, it wouldn't work to increase evade chance based on getting hit in a case like this. A deterministic system would put an end to fringe strats that rely on fudging RNGesus as much into your favor as possible.
 

Hobo Elf

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Platypus Planet
In your specific example though evade can be represent in deterministic system and you can stack it just like you did in RNG one. As usual it depends on system implementation. Like in RNG you could abuse system to get 0.01% chance of being hit -> in deterministic you could tune your stats not to be hit in first 10 rounds of combat. Just hyperbolic example that if system is shit -> its shit.

In that case it would be too powerful in this particular series, and there would be no point in taking tanks that rely on mitigating damage, because taking no damage at all is infinitely superior. The RNG works fine here since the high reward has to have a high risk, otherwise it's too easy and becomes meaningless.
 

Serus

Arcane
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Small but great planet of Potatohole
the good GM is the one that hide really well that process and let the players think they create the aventure and nothing is planned.

Wizard school has 3 or maybe 4 real cardinal rules. Ya just broke one of them.
3 or 4? even the number of rules are rng?
No, it's Deltertius rolling low on the MEMORY statistic of his internet persona. But it probably wasn't as low to be a critical failure either hence the result.
This is RNG at work for you.
 

Elex

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Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
2,043
In your specific example though evade can be represent in deterministic system and you can stack it just like you did in RNG one. As usual it depends on system implementation. Like in RNG you could abuse system to get 0.01% chance of being hit -> in deterministic you could tune your stats not to be hit in first 10 rounds of combat. Just hyperbolic example that if system is shit -> its shit.
yes that's the point, system implementation.

But for fix a RNG game you generally start to look at the extreme result, the extreme fail, like 20 miss in a row, how you actually fix that without removing at least a part of the RNG?
 

Delterius

Arcane
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Dec 12, 2012
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15,956
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Entre a serra e o mar.
the good GM is the one that hide really well that process and let the players think they create the aventure and nothing is planned.

Wizard school has 3 or maybe 4 real cardinal rules. Ya just broke one of them.
3 or 4? even the number of rules are rng?
It is an ongoing a debate. Some schools consider numbers 4 through 11 are considered suggestions, not rules. Others believe number 4 does not exist.

Either way you dun goofed.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I believe the fundamental thing that both approaches must maintain is that there isn't a static 'formula' for all encounters. (Bad) JRPGs do this a lot with somewhat good 'deterministic' ideas that they then plaster in all the game enemies and ruin the thrill - i was just thinking of Radiant Historia some hours ago, where every single encounter reduces to 'knockback all enemies into a single square, attack that square, repeat when they reset'. I agree with the persons that mentioned that a deterministic system gains a lot from introducing scarcity of 'deterministic' resources.
 

Hobo Elf

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Platypus Planet
In your specific example though evade can be represent in deterministic system and you can stack it just like you did in RNG one. As usual it depends on system implementation. Like in RNG you could abuse system to get 0.01% chance of being hit -> in deterministic you could tune your stats not to be hit in first 10 rounds of combat. Just hyperbolic example that if system is shit -> its shit.

In that case it would be too powerful in this particular series, and there would be no point in taking tanks that rely on mitigating damage, because taking no damage at all is infinitely superior. The RNG works fine here since the high reward has to have a high risk, otherwise it's too easy and becomes meaningless.
which is exactly why in poe you are not capable of reaching high values :)
Being able to reach close to 100%(constant sustainable, not talking about short self buffs) is bad design decision.

Getting close 100% is not bad at all if it requires putting effort into it and making sacrifices. It's not like the character is running with near 100% chance without debuffing / buffing either. Having a close to 100% evade chance is not the perfect defense either, since it's situational. It only works vs single target / multi single target attacks. An evade tank can't mitigate damage from attacks that affect the entire party.
 
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Elex

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2,043
just my regular drop every few pages: deterministic system > RNG

deterministic system = RNG and ideally an rpg should use both depending on which one works better for a particular system.
yes, the excessive use or the wrong application in one direction or the other bring to bad mechanics.

and both help each other in fixing issues.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,183
That is not a RPG. That is a fighting game. Go play Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat.

I am interested in interesting games. Your narrow definitions, on the other hand, not so much.

So, you basically want to programme in what amounts to the Unified Field Theory into a game...

Tell you what? We'll do that AS SOON AS WE UNDERSTAND THE DAMNED THING OURSELVES!

Ok?

No, not really. Just some sort of a model a player would actually have to study and understand in order to use "magic". You know, to make that sort of gameplay more interesting that arrows with more exotic visual effects.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
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You could make an RPG around a magic system that isn't fully or only rudimentary understood and part of the gameplay is using the scientific method to understand how magic works. But if its deterministic, then there's no replay value. If it's deterministic based on a RNG seed, then it probably would work better. But if it has both RNG in its seed and as part of its model, it would be even better.

That said, it would work only in one RPG, put that in every one and people would get annoyed. So I'm not sure how relevant this really is to this discussion. But I like the idea, sounds actually quiet neat.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,602
Oh, goody! Now, we are putting in "particle physicist" as a requirement for being a game developer.

Reminds me of a group I used to play with who kept moaning about how "unrealistic" things are in the game. So I had my character blow apart a rampaging rhino WITH HIS MIND, and turned to them and said, "I call your reality and raise it 7 power points."
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
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12,803
Reminds me of the role-playing dudes in Simon the Sorcerer (I think 2) who play a game that takes place in our world (Apartments and Accounting). Probably very realistic
 

The Bishop

Cipher
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
359
Every number generated in a digital computer is strictly deterministic. If you can't predict some of numbers then it's only because you failed to take into account all the magic variables that went into the deep simulation. Now go play your perfect deterministic cRPGs instead of whining here on Codex you faggots.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
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Messages
5,454
Pathfinder: Wrath
RNG is shit, unless you design a game build around it. For it to be good you need a game build around an iron-mean permadeath system.

Otherwise?
Oh I can't kill this boss, let me save scum until his attack misses or I get a good crit.
Oh I have 91% chance to attack with 20% crit. I MISSED? WTF, savescum!.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,602
RNG is shit, unless you design a game build around it. For it to be good you need a game build around an iron-mean permadeath system.

Otherwise?
Oh I can't kill this boss, let me save scum until his attack misses or I get a good crit.
Oh I have 91% chance to attack with 20% crit. I MISSED? WTF, savescum!.
If somneone wants to savescum, that is up to them. If you don't like it, too bad, so sad, shut the fuck up, it isn't your game.
 

Elex

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Oct 17, 2017
Messages
2,043
Oh, goody! Now, we are putting in "particle physicist" as a requirement for being a game developer.
why sound soo strange?
“game developer” is something extremely generic and require all the possible skill you can immagine.

you need people good at music for soundtrack

you need good artist for artwork



game designer need to be good at math and spreadsheet.

you need to have no selfesteen and selfpreservation for be a community manager.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,501
Location
The border of the imaginary
“rocks fall everyone die”

the good GM is the one that hide really well that process and let the players think they create the aventure and nothing is planned.



the dice and their RNG are the scapegoat that take the blame instead of the GM.

No. Your definition of a "good" GM sounds like Biowarian choices.

A good GM is one who works with the dice throws. Failed your will-power roll and frenzied at an important pivotal social gathering throwing the whole thing into chaos? A good GM will work around the ensuring shitstorm / massacare and make the campaign interesting nonetheless.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
Oh, goody! Now, we are putting in "particle physicist" as a requirement for being a game developer.
why sound soo strange?
“game developer” is something extremely generic and require all the possible skill you can immagine.

you need people good at music for soundtrack

you need good artist for artwork



game designer need to be good at math and spreadsheet.

you need to have no selfesteen and selfpreservation for be a community manager.

Physics/software ignoramus spotted. There is a huge tradeoff between accuracy and computational expense for any physics model. This is both in terms of the numerical approximation to the model, as well as to the model's accuracy and robustness at various scales of analysis. Think about the flow of a water through a pipe. There are many models you can use to describe this phenomenon:
  • A low-resolution model which only considers the change in flow behavior along one direction, the axis of the pipe, and models the pressure drop as a function of averaged friction.
  • A macroscopic model of the fluid flow which assumes the flow to be a continuous media in 3D, but which makes simplifying assumptions (incompressible fluid, no slip boundary condition at the pipe walls, laminar flow, etc)
  • A more complete macroscopic model which includes more complex effects (compressibility, interaction at the solid-fluid interface, turbulence, etc)
  • A nanoscale model which treats the fluid as H20 particles with classical potentials
  • A quantum-level model which solves the Schrödinger equation to obtain more accurate molecular potentials
If it's not obvious, moving from one model resolution to the next incurs massive computational expense. It is virtually impossible to model a macroscopic phenomenon like this with the tools of molecular dynamics, unless you make clever simplifications, have access to a supercomputer, and are willing to wait weeks to obtain microsecond-length simulations. And you're expecting this shit to make it into games programming?

The only ubiquitous physics simulation in games currently is ragdoll physics, which treats objects as rigid bodies with constraints (pin joints, friction, collisions, etc). Developers are still working out the kinks there, because obtaining robust, realistic models that aren't numerically unstable and don't melt your processor is a difficult task. The second you start asking for flexible body dynamics, or realistic water physics (not just water surface animations that look pretty), let alone real-time simulations of biological tissue failure, you're basically asking for a totally new paradigm either in physics modeling or in CPU/GPU architecture.

EDIT: what I totally forgot to reiterate here is that most physics simulation isn't worth the effort. Clever animations, hacky math, and dice rolls are almost entirely sufficient to capture most of what you'd want out of elaborate simulations. This is as a person who cares deeply about physics simulation as a field and who loves to see it in games -- developers should get away with as many shortcuts as possible.
 
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