Rampant Games - Character-Building Excercise

[VentilatorOfDoom]

<p>Jay "Rampant Coyote" Barnson ponders the terrible process of <a href="http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=1393" target="_blank">building your characters</a> in an RPG.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Modern CRPG design philosophy, at least so far as I can grasp from interviews and games, seems to hold that it is a sin to make a player wade through the character generation process prior to letting them get to &ldquo;the fun part.&rdquo; Character generation should be as streamlined as possible, minimized, and preferably delayed until after the adventure started. Players want story and action, not to be confronted with statistics.

Hey, I get it. It makes sense. You are promised on the box a game of adventure and discovery. But it starts out with a screen of numbers and unfamiliar terms that you are somehow expected to assign, balance, and not shoot yourself in the foot by making a magic user with an intelligence so low he can only cast the beginner spells. Oh, and rolling dice to create a character? Letting chance dictate that your character may be underpowered? Extra bad with bad sauce!
...
Last week, I picked up Icewind Dale Complete, a late-90s RPG using the 2nd Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons rules. It is a less story-driven, more hack-and-slashy, and somewhat less famous little brother to Baldur&rsquo;s Gate. It lets you create an entire party of six adventurers. Actually, it kinda requires it (I forget if it provides pre-generated parties, like its sequel).  I thought I&rsquo;d play through the first twenty minutes of the game, just to get a feel once again for a new (to me) old-school Bioware-style RPG experience.

As often happens with a good RPG, my quick trip to the fantasy world lasted considerably longer than I intended. Like, closer to two-and-a-half hours. At least half of that time was spent creating characters. I had no idea that much time had been passing, but I was completely entertained. And the random dice rolls were a big part of the entertainment factor. I was exploring the possibility space, trying to decide on the best arrangement of stats which, with a little bit of tweaking, could help describe someone filling a key role in my awesome adventuring party. It was challenging and gave me a gambler&rsquo;s rush. I was having a blast, and I hadn&rsquo;t even started &ldquo;playing&rdquo; yet.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, party building/planning is half the fun in any decent RPG. Of course in modern RPGs there's not much to build/plan in the first place.</p>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://www.rpgwatch.com/#15934">RPGWatch</a></p>

 

[MicoSelva]

Modern RPGs seem to have character "creation" inspired by Diablo. Pick a kit, enter a name. OK, you're all set, good luck on your adventure! Next!

 

[Phelot]

We ain't ever gonna see it again in a mainstream game

 

[Sceptic]

Good read... until he decided to pick Failout 3 as an example of how to improve character creation and make it fun. OK, so he said "FO3 at least tried" so maybe it's an admission that FO3 also failed miserably at the "fun" part, but still, he may have been better off not bringing it up.

 

[RampantCoyote]

If an indie RPG does this and sells like crazy - phenomenon crazy, maybe not like Minecraft but big enough to be hyped by the press and sell in numbers even 1/10th of what constitutes mainstream success - then yes, the mainstream guys will be all over it. They will chase the buck.

No, I don't anticipate that happening, either. But I've pretty much written off mainstream RPGs at this point, anyway. My money will go to Age of Decadence before it'll go to the next Dragon Age game.

 

[GarfunkeL]

I'm so guilty of that too. Creating the whole party in both IWD and BG, only to play few hours and then creating another party :D And another.

 

[DraQ]

(...) and preferably delayed until after the adventure started.

This, I have no problem with. It's basically an attempt at integrating gameplay and the mechanics, and those are always welcome if well thought through and pulled out right (counterexample - Fable 3 menus). The problem with delayed or drawn out chargen blended with actual gameplay is that it often leads to infamous unskippable tutorial dungeons/levels. If the integrated chargen comprises of fairly self contained segment distinct from the game proper, then, no matter how awesome you think it is, a quick alternative in form of traditional chargen menu should always be present.

But it starts out with a screen of numbers and unfamiliar terms that you are somehow expected to assign, balance, and not shoot yourself in the foot by making a magic user with an intelligence so low he can only cast the beginner spells.

That's not a problem. This is a sympthom of several different problems. First, the system may be needlessly convoluted and counterintuitive - bad builds, if they exist, should be obvious.
Second, this hints at system being imbalanced, with obvious and unambiguous optimal builds. At this point cutting out all the spurious crap and settling down for Diablo-like "Name/Kit" system *is* an obvious improvement.

I have probably riled up a lot of you now with my comment - good, this means I have your attention.
The problem with many character systems, is that they rely on minmaxing and permit the concept of dump stats. Not only that, gather a good number of players who played, for example, BG1 and ask them how to best build a pure mage - did you expect the answers to vary a lot?
I didn't .
In this context, the complexities of chargen *are* spurious crap whether you like it or not and getting rid of that crap altogether if the character's profession reasonably defines their desired stats would simply be an obvious improvement. Of course, 'obvious' hardly means 'only' or even 'the best' - what I would welcome is getting rid of spurious crap by making it neither spurious, nor crap, rather than streamlining it away - beth$oft style.

Oh, and rolling dice to create a character? Letting chance dictate that your character may be underpowered? Extra bad with bad sauce!

Rolling dice IS bad. Why? Because in a single player computer game there is nothing preventing you from rerolling indefinitely, and stakes are too high at this point of the game to not do that. What certainly should never be done is combining rolling up your stats with ability to redistribute points - this kind of chargen mechanics simply reduces the roll results to a single number player aims to maximize, in other words you mash teh buttan till the sum of all stats is awesome, which is neither fun, nor conductive to gameplay variety. If you want stats to be rolled, player should not be allowed to redistribute points, but accept first "good for what they are" results. If you aren't fixated on rolling the dice, then number of points available at chargen could be predetermined - of course this ties in with previous paragraph: if a choice is a no-brainer, the choice itself is spurious and lack of such pseudo-choice is better, even if it means going Diablo.

As often happens with a good RPG, my quick trip to the fantasy world lasted considerably longer than I intended. Like, closer to two-and-a-half hours. At least half of that time was spent creating characters. I had no idea that much time had been passing, but I was completely entertained. And the random dice rolls were a big part of the entertainment factor. I was exploring the possibility space, trying to decide on the best arrangement of stats which, with a little bit of tweaking, could help describe someone filling a key role in my awesome adventuring party. It was challenging and gave me a gambler’s rush. I was having a blast, and I hadn’t even started “playing” yet.

As much as I am prone to restartitis and as much as I can be entertained by making my own characters and thinking about various possible builds, it has never happened to me in an IE game - give me some proper Daggerfall or at least Wizardry 8 style system instead.

 

[Mackerel]

Character creation in the IE games was simple and bland to me. Darklands, there's a game that had great character creation.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

ID2 was the only IE game that had a decent character creation.

 

[mondblut]

Oh, and rolling dice to create a character?

Well, rolling dice IS pointless as anyone with half a brain and not possessed by a severe case of masochism instilled by his uncle touching him when he was a kid, will just keep rerolling for dozens and hundreds of times until he gets a high enough result, so what's the point? To give something to "ironman mode" pervs longing to virtually cut themselves? Give them an ability to remove points from initial scores and to proceed without distributing the pool, and they will be just as happy.

old-school Bioware-style RPG experience

"old-school" and "bioware-style" do not belong together in a single first-level internet domain, let alone a single sentence.

 

[Gragt]

At least I'm not the only one who loves spending 30 mins to create a character, considering the advantages and disadvantages of a build (assuming the system is complex enough to not give you a clear way to easy victory). And yeah, chance in character creation mostly sucks.

 

[AnalogKid]

Rolling dice IS bad. Why? Because in a single player computer game there is nothing preventing you from rerolling indefinitely, and stakes are too high at this point of the game to not do that.

I disagree with this. I think it is _especially_ suited to single player games because any balance issues are irrelevant since there's no direct player competition. Power gamers that want to min/max are obviously getting something out of it (the "gambler's rush"), and folks that don't want to waste time re-rolling can just take the first reasonably decent roll that comes along. I see no downside and considerable upside to random chargen. Personally, I love rolling 'till I get something that matches my vision, and it has never taken more than a few minutes in any game I've played. The concept of players rolling for hours bored out of their minds waiting for all 18's is a bogus strawman that doesn't exist, even though it's theoretically possible.

As much as I am prone to restartitis and as much as I can be entertained by making my own characters and thinking about various possible builds, it has never happened to me in an IE game - give me some proper Daggerfall or at least Wizardry 8 style system instead.

Agree here, wiz8 if you like massively complex party creation. I grew up with 1st-ed AD&D, so IE parties don't really stimulate me much. The BG and BG2 manuals were quite cool, though, figuring out the differences in computer game implementation. That's a key to this whole thing, I think...To have complex up-front chargen (or partygen), the player needs to digest a LOT of information ahead of time so he is doing more than just flailing around randomly. Of course redding is teh h4rd and manuals are outlawed nowadays, so initial chargen must be very simple, it's just not possible to introduce in-game all the stat/ability tables and progressions that wiz8 or even IE games require. Once again games are being streamlinered for the lowest common deonminator, designed as money-grabs, time-sinks, and diversions instead of mental-masturbation like the good ol' days.

 

[DraQ]

Rolling dice IS bad. Why? Because in a single player computer game there is nothing preventing you from rerolling indefinitely, and stakes are too high at this point of the game to not do that.

I disagree with this. I think it is _especially_ suited to single player games because any balance issues are irrelevant since there's no direct player competition.

I was contraposing SP cRPGs and PnP games which are naturally MP, so no cookie.

The concept of players rolling for hours bored out of their minds waiting for all 18's is a bogus strawman that doesn't exist, even though it's theoretically possible.

You'd be surprised.

Agree here, wiz8 if you like massively complex party creation. I grew up with 1st-ed AD&D, so IE parties don't really stimulate me much. The BG and BG2 manuals were quite cool, though, figuring out the differences in computer game implementation. That's a key to this whole thing, I think...To have complex up-front chargen (or partygen), the player needs to digest a LOT of information ahead of time so he is doing more than just flailing around randomly. Of course redding is teh h4rd and manuals are outlawed nowadays, so initial chargen must be very simple, it's just not possible to introduce in-game all the stat/ability tables and progressions that wiz8 or even IE games require. Once again games are being streamlinered for the lowest common deonminator, designed as money-grabs, time-sinks, and diversions instead of mental-masturbation like the good ol' days.

I've never really found Wiz8 chargen (or anything mechanics related, for that matter) particularly challenging. Stats are mostly self-explanatory, and for rest of the stuff there are friendly tooltips and description (apart from cumbersome combining/splitting Wiz8 has almost perfect interface).

You don't even need the manual in that game that much, though it is nicely written and a fun read.

 

[mondblut]

The concept of players rolling for hours bored out of their minds waiting for all 18's is a bogus strawman that doesn't exist, even though it's theoretically possible.

It's a strawman since Artmoney and its kin were invented. Who needs to waste hours rerolling when you can achieve the desired result in a couple of clicks? Doesn't even qualify as cheating, as the results achieved are perfectly legitimate within the procedure offered (i.e. rolling over and over).

 

[AnalogKid]

I've never really found Wiz8 chargen (or anything mechanics related, for that matter) particularly challenging. Stats are mostly self-explanatory, and for rest of the stuff there are friendly tooltips and description (apart from cumbersome combining/splitting Wiz8 has almost perfect interface).

I spent 2+ weeks building and studying spreadsheets of various party combinations, race/class combos, expert skill effects (therefore which stats to max and which to just emphasize), who gets what skills (particualrly juggling the shared party skills), who has what range with whatever weapons they'll use, where they'll be in the party-location thingy, what I'll multi-class to and when, what type of magic they'll train up (and when, and using what spells, and in what order for the Bishops) and various other things. My biggest problem was that I always wanted more characters than I had slots for, and I still wanted some NPCs for flavor, but I wanted a small party to make sure I got the higher-level abilities. I couldn't have done any of my planning without extreme documentation. You're right that one can create a character with the tooltips and such, but I don't think one can _plan_ a party using just the in-game info, at least not in the way that I like to.

I supose it's obvious that I'm information-obsessed (to be kind), but I love games that allow for that kind of nerding-out without requiring it. I can spend the effort and get whatever small edge I think I'm getting... if I want to. In the case of Wizardry 8, it's not necessarily challenging to plan a party, it's just FUN (for me) in the manner of the OP because there's so much to tinker with and try to "optimize".

But like I said with the dice-rolling strawman, if/when it becomes boring, I just stop doing it and start playing! I don't feel compelled to do something terribly un-fun just because it's AVAILABLE. A hammer to my nuts is available 24/7 too, I just choose not to take advantage of that particular "feature" of life.

 

[Norfleet]

The concept of players rolling for hours bored out of their minds waiting for all 18's is a bogus strawman that doesn't exist, even though it's theoretically possible.

Oh, hell yeah, it existed. Back in the old days of MUDs, I would accept nothing less, and wrote a script to do precisely this. Why settle for less than being all you can be?

 

[Archibald]

I disagree with this. I think it is _especially_ suited to single player games because any balance issues are irrelevant since there's no direct player competition. Power gamers that want to min/max are obviously getting something out of it (the "gambler's rush"), and folks that don't want to waste time re-rolling can just take the first reasonably decent roll that comes along. I see no downside and considerable upside to random chargen.

How do you make for example combat enjoyable to min/maxer and "honest" guy who just goes with 10s and 11s?

 

[Elhoim]

My money will go to Age of Decadence before it'll go to the next Dragon Age game.

You are a true patriot

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

How do you make for example combat enjoyable to min/maxer and "honest" guy who just goes with 10s and 11s?

Someone who goes with 10s and 11s is not honest but retarded. What do you want to use this character for? Spellcasting? Thieving without INT and DEX? Ranged attacker without DEX? Melee guy without STR?
IF you balance the game for that kind of character everyone with half a clue will cakewalk thru the game.

 

[Archibald]

I agree, so imo rolling is always abused because nobody with half a brain will want to play game with such stats. And therefore, imo, redundant.

 

[oscar]

Arcanum and Darklands had awesome character gen. Arcanum's backgrounds (what gave you immediate roleplaying ideas and could give you some very quirky and fun too play characters) and Darkland's "plot their life" style (with you going through a branching profession tree that gave you skill bonuses with the cost of aging penalties to your stats for how deep you go down the tree).

I guess Morrowind's character gen was a decent compromise. You being asked your name by a fellow slave, then a guard inquiring as to where you came from to decide race and then having to fill out forms for a census taker to do your classes and star sign. All this mixed in with a little bit of gameplay in between so someone theoretically who doesn't have a clue about rpg's can learn whether he likes stealing things or flinging fireballs.

 

[DraQ]

I couldn't have done any of my planning without extreme documentation.

Why? The only things that are in the manuals, but not in menus is race/class/points table which spares you several minutes of fiddling around, and spell list.

Not that I didn't read the manual or that it wasn't awesome.

How do you make for example combat enjoyable to min/maxer and "honest" guy who just goes with 10s and 11s?

Someone who goes with 10s and 11s is not honest but retarded. What do you want to use this character for? Spellcasting? Thieving without INT and DEX? Ranged attacker without DEX? Melee guy without STR?
IF you balance the game for that kind of character everyone with half a clue will cakewalk thru the game.

Then again, if "Fighter" effectively implies dumb muscle, you can just cut out the cheese and go all Diablo. It *will* be an improvement.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Then again, if "Fighter" effectively implies dumb muscle, you can just cut out the cheese and go all Diablo. It *will* be an improvement.

1) It doesn't imply it
2) Diablo is not an improvement over DnD, the thought alone is ridiculous

The all 10s / 11s comment was nonsense because you'd have a character that can't do anything. You can build a fighter without STR, even a high AC tank without STR but that implies some decent stats elsewhere like DEX and a spellcasting stat like INT. Saying a char with all 10s/11s is "honest" kinda implies that characters that aren't that hideously gimped are "dishonest" ie cheaters/munchkins etc which is bollocks.

 

[AnalogKid]

I couldn't have done any of my planning without extreme documentation.

Why?

Because I NEED MY SPREADSHEETS, MAN! I don't have a photographic memory, and I can't remember things like where the breakpoints are in spd/sen/weap skill that actually give extra attacks, and when each character will hit those breakpoints given varying point-allocatoin strategies, without written tables (or better yet, equations I can use to create my own tables). In the end, I guess I did basically end up using all home-brewed documentation to do my planning, but it would really have sucked to have to load up the game and use scroll-over tooltips to copy over all the info into a form I can use to actually visualize and plan 4-6 characters at once. Ultimately, though, as long as the info is there _somewhere_, that's a whole shitload better than "silver medal make moar cool combo" char systems.

To the "10's/11's" comments, I'll go all captain obvious and point out that the available options are not just "take first roll, no matter how gimped" or "roll until I'm bored and want to do something else, fucking stupid game system with randomization!". Most people would choose "roll a few times and take a pretty good result, then get on with it" approach. That's definitely what I did in the early Might & Magic games, as a non-D&D example, and imo it works great. The key is that it lets the player choose how much min/maxing he wants to do. If you insist on having no fun with a game due to random possibilities of something better being just around the corner, that's on you.

I'm all for options. I seem to remember some D&D games with choice between point-buy or rolled chargen, for example.

 

[DraQ]

I couldn't have done any of my planning without extreme documentation.

Why?

Because I NEED MY SPREADSHEETS, MAN! I don't have a photographic memory, and I can't remember things like where the breakpoints are in spd/sen/weap skill that actually give extra attacks, and when each character will hit those breakpoints given varying point-allocatoin strategies, without written tables (or better yet, equations I can use to create my own tables).

Ok, I think we've just passed the point where it gets weird.

I don't recall information anywhere near this level of precision anywhere in the little grey book, therefore it clearly isn't necessary for character/party planning/creation.

Now, who's obsessed?

The key is that it lets the player choose how much min/maxing he wants to do.

That sounds eerily reminescent of the "you don't have to use fast travel/exploit X/I WIN buttan" argument.


While I can accept systems where you roll your stats individually and don't get to reallocate points, possibly only getting separate pool of points you can allocate freely, on the grounds of it making *unassisted* rerolling unlikely to produce anything better than first remotely decent result you get, systems where you roll points you can reallocate freely fail no matter what they stated goal is.

As for minmaxing, I hate it - if system offers no reasonable excuse for not minmaxing, then it just fails and can be replaced with Diablo style one.