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Quick Question - Top-down or Isometric?

Top-down or isometric?

  • Dreamweb Top-down

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Darksun Top-down

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • JA2/X-COM Isometric

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

soggie

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For a turn-based modern tactical game involving units with firearms that requires the player to take into account of firing distances, kill zones and covers (something like a turn-based rainbow six game), should I go for a top-down view or an isometric view?

Oh btw, I'm using a square grid system, and there is only two stances - standing and prone. Also, there's no vertical height in terrain. It's either a wall (100% cover), an object (50% cover) or ground (0% cover).

Top-down view like Dreamweb
dreamweb3.jpg


Top-down view like Darksun
Dark%20Sun.jpg


Isometric view like X-COM
ufo3.gif
 

SuicideBunny

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Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
top down dreamweb/alien breed style if the game is flat, iso if you want to have height differences.
 

soggie

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SuicideBunny said:
top down dreamweb/alien breed style if the game is flat, iso if you want to have height differences.

No height differences. Added that info into the first post. Thanks!
 

Jim Cojones

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I like isometric for it looks (and some well chosen trimetric projection is even better) but it can be pain in the ass for a game that is centred around tactical combat. Actually, it's probably the thing that I find most annoying in both UFO and JA2 - there is always a problem when you want to click on the square that is partially covered by an object - when it's a wall then it's only a minor aanoyance that you can't see the square but if it's something you can use, you have to fight with the cursor. It can be resolved if you can changed the action bounded to the left mouse button (example: Fallout) or using left button for moving and right for action (or the other way) but it's less convenient for most of the time.

Could you give any details on how the cover system would work? If you want to have very detailed system with objects that are of a different height or allow characters to hide in buildings and shoot through windows, it will be very unintuitive with top-down projection. Whenever you see a fence, a barrel etc. you'll wonder if you are fully covered, if not what parts of the bodies remain seen. It wouldn't be ideal in isometric but still miles better.[EDIT: oh, no height differences, doesn't matter then]

If you want top-down, use Dark Sun-like view. The other looks more "realistic" but it also makes your characters look like blobs.
 

soggie

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Jim Cojones said:
Could you give any details on how the cover system would work? If you want to have very detailed system with objects that are of a different height or allow characters to hide in buildings and shoot through windows, it will be very unintuitive with top-down projection. Whenever you see a fence, a barrel etc. you'll wonder if you are fully covered, if not what parts of the bodies remain seen. It wouldn't be ideal in isometric but still miles better.[EDIT: oh, no height differences, doesn't matter then]

Just to clarify, the cover system is very simple. It's my first game project so I'm keeping things retard-fri... I mean, user-friendly.

Units have two stances - standing or prone. There're two kinds of cover - full and partial.

If unit = standing:
- 100% cover from full cover
- 50% cover from partial cover (calculated into accuracy)

If unit = prone:
- 100% cover from full cover
- 100% cover from partial cover

Doesn't take into account air-burst grenades and fragile covers (e.g. walls, fences, etc absorbs damage from bullets passing through, whereas metal walls, brick walls stops rounds) though.
 

soggie

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For those who advocate isometric, can you give reasons please? Thanks!
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
I went with Dark Sun top-down. I find Dreamweb top-down to be way too ugly when it comes to people. DS top-down seems to me to have the best of both: you can easily distinguish characters like in iso and you controlling the battlefield itself is as easy as in regular to-down. Of course there is the matter of pereference, and in some cases isometric is essential (if you have multiple elevations for example). Frankly I find no advantage whatsoever to Dreamweb top-down.
 

Murk

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If it is a fixed-camera (no rotation) then I'd say dark-sun top down, if it does have a rotating camera (even if only around the 'grid') then i'd say isometric.
 

mondblut

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Iso is eyecandy when done right (JA2, Fallout) but terrible when is anything other than perfect (hello Spiderweb... and XCom is fugly too). Add in walls obstructing your vision requiring all kinds of stupid copouts like making them semi-transparent, and you have something which blatantly sacrifices functionality for visuals.

"True" topdown is just ugly crap. It can only be justified when line of sight and instant recognition of facing are strongly involved.

"Sideways" topdown is simple, functional and good-looking. Gets my vote.
 

OSK

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Why should I have to choose? Give me a freely moving camera that I can snap back into place.
 

soggie

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OldSkoolKamikaze said:
Why should I have to choose? Give me a freely moving camera that I can snap back into place.

I'm using a 2D engine and graphics, so no freely rotating cameras.
 

OSK

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soggie said:
OldSkoolKamikaze said:
Why should I have to choose? Give me a freely moving camera that I can snap back into place.

I'm using a 2D engine and graphics, so no freely rotating cameras.

Oh. I thought this was just in general.
 

gromit

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Sceptic said:
I went with Dark Sun top-down... Frankly I find no advantage whatsoever to Dreamweb top-down.
Good call on avoiding ISO - with play centered around LOS and firing angles on a single plane, it's the most informative and direct way to present the action. So, I seem to be a little late to the party, but I'll still chime in on the two top-down projections.

In the DS style, there can be a definite aesthetic advantage. I don't think the "unrecognizable blob-people" issue with DW would be a big problem at an even remotely modern resolution (especially if the play area had some actual screen space) but the silhouette of a human being is just one of those things our brain really likes to see wherever it possibly can. Contrast a stick figure side-on and top-down. Furthermore, many objects are more recognizable by their vertical faces - wall-mouted switches, lockers, and other staples of environmental interactivity. Mind you this only does any real good if they all face south, and you plan on having that stuff anyway. Most do have easy "true top-down" alternatives (terminals and crates for the above) but some are tricker to figure out, like signage.

The only direct aesthetic disadvantage to DS-style I can think of is that once height is present in your art, having everything top out so as to fit in the bounds of one tile can look a little odd, but, unless done very carefully, having objects extend "up," into and over the next tile north, puts us right back at blocking view of the actual playfield and disrupting the otherwise very direct gameplay / screen correlation.

The indirect aesthetic disadvantage is a pragmatic doozy, though. In DS-style, you multiplying your framecount for each rotatable object by however many discrete angles you can visibly face - you can get away with just one for a totally abstracted style, but that probably won't work with the emphasis on LOS - you need to see who's looking where. Any more than one and you need four so people don't run backwards when going north or west. Plan on eight, so as to distinguish diagonal facings. This is obviously a bigger bitch than just rotating the sprite, and will never be as smooth, as long as your engine can't do what Nintendon't.

One last area to cover, that may be wholly invalidated depending on your mechanics: exact LOS, firing angles, and target profiles are a lot easier to eyeball in DW-style topdown than DS-style. In the most abstracted style of calculating this, i.e. checking the LOS on the square tile boundries, you only have a mild visual disconnect unless every object and character is a cube... not really a big deal, all told. However, if you intend on taking the actual object and target profiles into consideration when dealing with LOS and cover on the screen / play surface, e.g. sideways targets having slimmer profiles, windows/corners providing incrementally better/worse cover as the angle of incoming fire strays from 90 degrees, the handling of arcing sprays or frag shrapnel... well...

I don't anticipate actually doing it but I feel as if the ideal system would let me plant a straight-edge or protractor on my screen and check my lines vs the sprites. This can actually be integrated into the engine by using the "central angle" of targets and obstructions as measured from the shooter (pixel-perfect or bounding box for the target as you please.) I always thought that would fit snugly into a stat-based system by expressing a character's accuracy as control over the shot's angle, that being compared against the angle in the shooter's FOV the target occupies. This method allows for a very natural, "one-size fits all" calculation covering the increasing difficulty of a shot as a target gets smaller / further away / more obstructed, and stacks nicely with a weapon accuracy stat in the same vein. It also has obvious applications to misses, grazes, and richochet as one may desire.

Imagine firing through a copse of trees: it's much easier to see (and implement) the effects of the trees from all angles when their area on the XY plane is visibly defined; otherwise an east-west shot at a target is attempting to hit a width that is merely implied, and by the sprite PERPENDICULAR to the one shown.
 

soggie

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Thanks guys for the insights.

I've settled on angled top-down view like Darksun.

As a token of respect for the Hive Mind, here're some of the concept artwork:

bandit.jpg

commando.jpg

merchant.jpg

missile_barrage.jpg

stormtroopers.jpg

walker.jpg

004.gif

005.gif

006.gif


As well as two in-game renders. It's only about 1% complete.

4-may-2010-03.png

4-may-2010-04.png
 

Hory

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Messages
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DramaticPopcorn said:
HAHAHA
Ta fuck is dis?! Capitan Kwanzania?
No, it's just your lack of sophistication in visual perception.

soggie said:
Compared to the good concept art, these look awfully JRPGish.
 

soggie

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Hory said:
DramaticPopcorn said:
HAHAHA
Ta fuck is dis?! Capitan Kwanzania?
No, it's just your lack of sophistication in visual perception.

soggie said:
Compared to the good concept art, these look awfully JRPGish.

Yeah, we wanted clean pixel art for the units, but somehow it kept turning up this way. Still a long way to go before we can finalize on an art direction.
 

denizsi

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I don't know where this came from (probably due to playing Choice of Broadsides recently) but I'd love a tactical TB game based around flintlock firearms and close combat.
 

soggie

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denizsi said:
I don't know where this came from (probably due to playing Choice of Broadsides recently) but I'd love a tactical TB game based around flintlock firearms and close combat.

Flintlocks don't really exist in my game. Sorry for that one.

And I removed melee combat to simplify the mechanics so that I can actually finish the game in the first place.

EDIT: MOAR!!!

Concept Art
 

soggie

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denizsi said:
You are not authorised to download this attachment.

Sorry, I left my brain at home when I posted that. Here's the image:

archonite.jpg
 

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