Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Planescape: Torment - TNO's horrible crime...

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Spoilers abound, if you have not played through the game then you should probably just avoid this thread.

--

So the TNO committed some terrible terrible crime that led to him seeking immortality in the first place. Now either this just isn't explained in the game or I completely missed some key dialog chain.

What, exactly, was TNO's horrible crime? Looking up stuff online I couldn't find any reference to it, some synopsis said that the crime is not explained, and another synopsis based on the book (which isn't true to the game, apparently) claims that TNO made some deal with the fiend Fhjull the Fork Tongued and his payment was to serve in the Blood War but TNO tried to bitch out of it.

So, dear hivemind, does anyone know if his crime is ever explained, and if so what it is?
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Didn't someone ask this exact question before? No conclusive answers were found if I remember right, though some proposed that one of the memories in the Sensory Stones is actually from the mortal TNO - the one where he flies a warship and orders/commits/condones a genocide, or something along those lines.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
I'm afraid trying to search the topic yielded a lot of threads that mentioned PS:T or TNO but not quite the topic I had in mind. I figured it would be much much easier to simply ask in a new thread.

My guess is that the crime is not explained, at least not in any proper detail. This would make it very potent as explaining any crime will eventually detract from the grand diabolism that any person can imagine... unless of course they had something particularly devious penned out.

I suppose now would be a good time to replay the Fortress of Regret's with a lot more stats dumped into int/wis/cha (this playthrough I had 21 wisdom and 21 int, 18 charisma)...

Regardless... any insight would be great.
 
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
6,927
Wasn't he some kind of Genghis Khan-esque figure? I vaguely remember that witch mentioning it.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
Avellone often uses the 'Pulp Fiction briefcase' in his writing - i.e. don't specify exactly WHAT the great crime is, or what's in FFG's diary, or what TNO's name is (except that it's something obvious, at least obvious when he regains his memories), THINK of what they are when writing, but don't tell the reader because they're going to invent something more impressive than what you thought of (and even if they don't, what's special is the mystery, not the answer).

For that reason, I don't think you can find out what the crime was in the game. It does say that in addition to the great crime, he also lived an evil life - the crime was just what topped it off.

However,the game DOES specify some of the other crimes he made, either in his original incarnation or later, and at least 2 of them are pretty massive (i.e. more massive than the numerous murders the paranoid incarnation commits, or the callous manipulation of his lover and friends by the practical incarnation): opening the gates of Sigil to let a small army of demons/devils come through and cause a serious massacre, resulting in the Lady of Pain intervening and mazing him (found by combining the story of the guy that opened the gates together with the paranoid incarnation getting mazed, his diary - not completely sure, but certainly seems put in to point towards the paranoid incarnation being the culprit), and creating Ignus.

Ignus SOUNDS like the work of the practical incarnation, but when you ask him (a nice touch - the practical incarnation is the obvious suspect, so it was nice that you got the dialogue option to ask him about Ignus) he's never heard of him. Ignus was pretty famous for almost destroying the lower wards, and then become a fixed decoration on permanent display, and despite his lackluster performance as a party member, it's made clear that he's one of the NPCs (along with Vhaliour) that is a true force in his own right, almost defeated all the other mages in Sigil put together, and is possibly capable of killing TNO (making his suckage as a party member all the more disappointing:-(). So, if the practical incarnation came AFTER Ignus was 'created', then he'd at least know who he was, and would probably have worked out his relationship to him. So the dialogue with the practical incarnation seems placed to tell the player that the events with Ignus occurred BEFORE the practical incarnation. We know the practical incarnation came before the paranoid one, and that there were numerous other incarnations between those two - they weren't the most recent two, but rather the two that 'got the furthest' towards finding TTO. Him knowing Dakkon and Morte is misleading, it doesn't mean he was recent - Dakkon is incredibly old and from an incredibly long-lived race (not sure that Githzerai even age, for that matter), and Morte is ageless.

I always took that to mean that the original incarnation was the uber mage that tormented young Ignus and made him into what he was. That was simply because the practical incarnation seems to be vastly more powerful than any other incarnation (well, maybe the paranoid one could assassinate him, or beat him in a one v one fight, but overall the practical one is immensely powerful), and so it didn't seem likely that there would be that many other incarnations who were mages of that kind of power. Others have shot down that theory, for pretty good reason, but I still like it.

In any event, that still wouldn't be the 'big crime', but it puts the magnitude of the crime into perspective.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Azrael the cat said:
I always took that to mean that the original incarnation was the uber mage that tormented young Ignus and made him into what he was. That was simply because the practical incarnation seems to be vastly more powerful than any other incarnation (well, maybe the paranoid one could assassinate him, or beat him in a one v one fight, but overall the practical one is immensely powerful), and so it didn't seem likely that there would be that many other incarnations who were mages of that kind of power. Others have shot down that theory, for pretty good reason, but I still like it.

From what I read about Ignus, apparently the mage incarnation that taught Ignus was actually Yemeth - and there is an item in game known as the Amulet of Yemeth that didn't make the cut (the item was never actually PLACED in the game, but is in the data so you could hex edit it in I suppose). This incarnation, Yemeth, was pretty cruel and taught Ignus magic through pain, however it is somewhat questionable whether it was the Paranoid Incarnation as the Paranoid one wouldn't trust anyone... especially not enough to teach them magic (and, of course, the Paranoid incarnation gives you Strength and Dexterity when merging... not very magely skills... but his room in the sensate society had mage related items... )

In any event, that still wouldn't be the 'big crime', but it puts the magnitude of the crime into perspective.

I replayed the part in the Fortess of Regrets where you learn your true name and use the bronze sphere - but even with a Wisdom of 22 there is nothing in it that tells you your crime.

Jasede - did you mean the sensory stone in the Private Sensorium?
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Emotional Vampire said:
Wasn't he some kind of Genghis Khan-esque figure? I vaguely remember that witch mentioning it.

it's mentioned that TNO was a general at times, and led an army of fiends or some another but the actual DIABOLICAL crime is never told.

---

And it would appear Amnesia can change the nature of a man quite readily...
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Oh, while we're at it, another topic was presented.

Supposedly TNO will face enemies three that have been warped by the planes, none of which are more dangerous than himself in his full glory (Transcendent One).

So Trias, the Deva who does evil.
Ravel, the night hag with a heart of gold.
And.... Fjuhl, the Devil who does... good?

Some controversy was brought about whether Fjuhl was an enemy at all... possibly he was planned to be one but it was cut out. But assuming nothing was cut out, who would the third plane-warped enemy be? The above hierarchy makes sense as the characters are basically the opposite of what they should be...

Trias, who should be LG is actually chaotic and commits evil.
Ravel, who should be NE is in love with you and helps you (though she doesn't betray her alignment so much as she... is just flat out fucking insane).
And Fjuhl (I'm pretty sure I'm spelling this wrong every time I type it), who should be LE but is forced to be good (that doesn't betray the lawful part tho)...

Anyway, just food for thought
 
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
6,927
"You shall meet enemies three, but none more dangerous than yourself in your full glory. They are shades of evil, of good, and of neutrality given life and twisted by the laws of the planes."

Good: Trias
Neutral: Mortality
Evil: Ravel, I guess?
 

PlanHex

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
2,066
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
I thought the third one was supposed to be TTO, but I don't remember Deionarra's prediction in full detail and I am too lazy to fire up the game.
 

JrK

Prophet
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,764
Location
Speaking to the Sea
Methinks thinks:

Good: Trias
Evil: Ravel
Neutral: Ignus or Vhailor. Both are neutral. But both are... not exactly neutral. Vhailor will kill for the slightest transgression and Ignus is just chaotic evil.

This also fits the order in which you meet them. First good, then evil, then neutral.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Emotional Vampire said:
"You shall meet enemies three, but none more dangerous than yourself in your full glory. They are shades of evil, of good, and of neutrality given life and twisted by the laws of the planes."

Good: Trias
Neutral: Mortality
Evil: Ravel, I guess?

The problem in that, rather obvious at first, triarchy stems from the "...but none more dangerous than your full glory" part.. as that draws your own awesomeness to be separate from the other three... unless that's supposed to mean the danger re-joining TTO would pose, in which case yes... but since rejoining TTO is not the ONLY ending to the game, I would argue that TTO is separate from the other three.

JrK said:
Methinks thinks:

Good: Trias
Evil: Ravel
Neutral: Ignus or Vhailor. Both are neutral. But both are... not exactly neutral. Vhailor will kill for the slightest transgression and Ignus is just chaotic evil.

This also fits the order in which you meet them. First good, then evil, then neutral.

Not bad, however, both Ignus and Vhailor are optional characters, and in the case of Vhailor, easily overlooked. Ignus too can be overlooked. However, this holds some merit for one other reason - it is either Ignus or Vhailor that is your enemy in the Fortress of Regrets, depending on your alignment. If you are lawful or good, Ignus fights you. If you are Chaotic or Evil then Vhailor fights you. And both characters are said to have great power - Vhailor being able to slay you through his ties to Justice itself, and Ignus because of his ties to the elemental plane of Fire. It seems a conduit to some of the cosmic/inter-planar powers (Law, Fire) are able to POSSIBLY slay you.
 

Krokar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Messages
119
Mikayel, check out this History of the Nameless One (shamelessly stolen from Sorcerer's Place) if you haven't already.

The following was found on a sheet of vellum shuffled in among a manuscript of Candrian's On Planar Travel bought in the Clerk's Ward. It is a history, believed written by one of his companions, of the man known by various names, but most commonly as the "Nameless One" in Sigil.

What of the original incarnation? There was an advisor, whose lying advice wrought betrayal. Hints of a contract signed. A crime was committed, one so awful the acts of all future incarnations are as nothing compared to it. The crime itself is unknown, save the implication that the planes are still slowly dying because of it.

He sought help of the night hag Ravel Puzzlewell, to grant him immortality, so he could escape his punishment and perhaps atone for his crime. And for love of him, Ravel granted his request, stripping his mortality from him. But a dreadful price was paid, since although the death of the body was no longer permanent, it did injure the mind, and memories were forgotten. Thus were born many incarnations, each starting with only fragments of memory of past existences.

There is also a sliver of another memory of Ravel, which seems to tie in with the myth of the three wishes. In the myth a man wishes for the awful knowledge of who he is. Perhaps this refers to a time when the original incarnation realized the full extent of his crime, and what the punishment must be?

There are only fragments from the many incarnations which followed. General of armies, a mage trained by a puissant sorcerer, a bloody-handed criminal chased by the mercykillers, a thief reduced to skulking beneath the streets of Sigil. Wandering many planes, acts of cruelty and kindness, chaos and law. One constant was the symbol of torment on his body, which drew other tormented souls to him. And many to their doom as well, no doubt.

At some point an incarnation which knew of the Fortress of Regrets, more accurately the Fortress of His Regrets, had a conversation with Trias the deva in which he described what he knew of the fortress.

One incarnation lead a revolt in what was then the prime ward, opening all the gates in the ward to the lower planes using an artifact known as the Shadow-Sorcelled Key. The Lady of Pain finally crushed the revolt. Could his scarring be explained by having fallen under the Lady's shadow? Could even an immortal survive that?

Several centuries ago Ravel attempted to open all the portals in Sigil. Whether it was to prove she could solve any puzzle, or as she later claimed to free the Lady from her cage, the Lady mazed her, removing a source of knowledge from access by later incarnations.

More than 200 years ago an incarnation was a member of the Sensates. Apparently this was a happy time for him, but he disappeared, with only rumors of his murder following in his wake.

At some point after this was the time of the 'practical' incarnation, who, but for one, came closest to defeating his enemy. A cold, ruthless incarnation. He kept detailed notes, and had tattooed instructions on his back to future incarnations. He tricked Pharod into a quest for an object he could not be bothered to find himself, and imprisoned the mercykiller Vhailor in a cell only he could release him from merely on the chance that Vhailor's abilities might one day be of use.

He commissioned a dream machine from Xeno Xander, to force the dreams which he could not have. He also commissioned from the Godsmen a portal to reach Ravel in her maze. In the end, he did not have time to make use of either item.

He attempted to thwart his unknown enemy with false bodies, by hiding on outer planes, even building a tomb which was both a trap for his enemy, and a repository of knowledge for future incarnations.

Nothing he could devise could throw off his enemy, so he decided to seek his enemy in his lair. To that end he gathered companions to himself.

He sought knowledge from the pillar of skulls in Avernus, and freed one skull from the pillar who he named Morte. Then he nearly killed the skull when it could not answer his questions. Unfortunately Morte still cannot wholly escape his past, and embroiders the truth. Thus he is not a very reliable source.

He tracked down a githzerai named Dak'kon in Limbo, because of the Karach blade he wields. He saved his life and gained his sworn service by cynically offering the words of Zerthimon. Words which meant nothing to this incarnation.

He enlisted a blind archer, Xachariah, one who could still see by other means, and whose arrows always found his enemies' hearts.

He professed a false love for Deionarra, so he could bind her and make use of her abilities.

Finally, a little more than fifty years ago, he and his companions traveled to the Fortress of Regrets, to scout his enemy, his Mortality. The first part of his plan went well. Deionarra was allowed to die, her love for him anchoring her to the fortress in death, and her powers gaining her insight into the fortress that no other could have provided.

Otherwise it was a disaster. He and his companions were separated. Dak'kon and Morte managed to escape, although wounded in faith and courage. Xachariah and the 'practical' incarnation died, although their bodies returned to Sigil. Possibly his enemy, after defeating him, transported him back to Sigil before killing him for fear that his dying in the fortress would be the end of himself as well?

What was likely the next incarnation was insane, quite likely because of his experiences in the Fortress of Regret. In his insanity he viewed his other incarnations as his enemies, as body-thieves. Although only extant for a few years, he was not unclever.

He destroyed his previous incarnation's laboriously constructed journals, a great loss, hardly balanced by the maunderings he inscribed in his previous incarnation's trapped tomb, and his own rambling journal. He also tried to burn the legacy left by this previous incarnation with Iannis the Advocate, but failed.

He left many traps for his other incarnations, the most devious of which was a sensory stone in the Festhall with two experiences, one overlaying another, the second a snare which only another incarnation could trigger.

He kept a journal, written in the tongue of Uyo, a tongue he guaranteed no one would be able to speak by murdering his teacher, Fin Andlye. This was not enough protection, so he required opening a puzzle box to access its contents, and trapped it besides.

This incarnation was also responsible for an amazing discovery. He found someone who told him his mind was weakening with every death of an incarnation, and who, somehow, was able to prevent memories from slipping away upon death. Unfortunately, this discovery would only benefit a future incarnation. Predictably, the 'insane' incarnation butchered his helper.

In fact, this incarnation viewed anyone who seemed to recognize him as a threat, and threats were all too easily eliminated. Even being mazed by the Lady did not stop his rampage, since he managed to escape his prison. His murderous fury was finally quenched when he met unexpected resistance from one of his victims, and plummeted to his death. This was roughly fifty years ago.

Of the next few incarnations little is known, although one was a powerful mage, and tutored an apprentice named Ignus who loved fire.

Finally there is the last incarnation, who awoke in the Dustmen's Mortuary, the one whose memory is not veiled at death. Curiously, the person who found this incarnation's body and took it to the Mortuary was drawn to the remains. How drawn? Was it Fell? His enemy? Possibly even the mark of torment, drawing another tormented soul even in death?

This last incarnation set out on a quest to backtrack figures from his past, a path which eventually led to his enemy, his Mortality. This was mirrored by his enemy's desire that he follows the path, so that remaining clues to his enemy's location could be eliminated.

He fought Ravel, Trias and his Mortality. He also faced three of his former incarnations. Interesting examples of the Rule of Three.

He and his companions defeated his Mortality, and undid the separation which made him immortal so long ago. His long delayed punishment caught up with him, and he was sentenced to serve in the Blood Wars.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Yeah I found that while looking for things originally - it was the source that claims that the Crime itself is never mentioned, which was initially and still is my belief.

Though I suppose that synopsis, along with some other sources, conflict with which incarnation discovered the means from whatever nameless agent to retain their memory after a generation or three. I had read it was the Practical Incarnation but the style of the writing left by the one who discovered it was the Paranoid's. He did, after all, kill the teacher of the non-amnesia effect the same way he killed Fin after learning the lost language.

Thanks for posting/bringing that up anyway, though. It is a pretty good read if you need a refresher on the key points of the plot.
 
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
6,927
Mikayel said:
"...but none more dangerous than your full glory" part..

I wouldn't even care about that part. It always seemed like more of a "filler" to me. It's basically just saying "You will beat them up". If it was a Bethesda game.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Emotional Vampire said:
Mikayel said:
"...but none more dangerous than your full glory" part..

I wouldn't even care about that part. It always seemed like more of a "filler" to me. It's basically just saying "You will beat them up". If it was a Bethesda game.

Hmm, perhaps. The prophecy is somewhat laced with relevant information though, as is your entire first meeting with Deionarra. I'd be inclined to agree with you as there is a lot of neat but useless dialog in the game, but since in this case you kind of are your own enemy - it makes sense that she meant TTO with that part of the prophecy, and meant it separately from the other three.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, either Trias or TTO or some other major figure claims that "the fiend you have released" (by killing Trias, if you so chose) will come for you... that of course is a reference to Fjuhll.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
Mikayel said:
Oh, while we're at it, another topic was presented.

Supposedly TNO will face enemies three that have been warped by the planes, none of which are more dangerous than himself in his full glory (Transcendent One).

So Trias, the Deva who does evil.
Ravel, the night hag with a heart of gold.
And.... Fjuhl, the Devil who does... good?

Some controversy was brought about whether Fjuhl was an enemy at all... possibly he was planned to be one but it was cut out. But assuming nothing was cut out, who would the third plane-warped enemy be? The above hierarchy makes sense as the characters are basically the opposite of what they should be...

Trias, who should be LG is actually chaotic and commits evil.
Ravel, who should be NE is in love with you and helps you (though she doesn't betray her alignment so much as she... is just flat out fucking insane).
And Fjuhl (I'm pretty sure I'm spelling this wrong every time I type it), who should be LE but is forced to be good (that doesn't betray the lawful part tho)...

Anyway, just food for thought

I always thought that it referred to the meeting with your 3 other incarnations in the fortress of regrets. The 'evil' one, who is really just paranoid. The 'neutral' one, who isn't malicious or evil, but just overly 'practical', manipulating others without emotion. And then the 'original' one, who was once evil, but is now good.

I never thought to consider whether it referred to anyone else. I still think that meeting with earlier incarnations is the most likely meaning - especially given the 'none more powerful than you in your full glory' - they CAN'T be more powerful than a full TNO, as they are PIECES of him.
 

Darth Roxor

Rattus Iratus
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,629
Location
Djibouti
Azrael the cat said:
I always thought that it referred to the meeting with your 3 other incarnations in the fortress of regrets. The 'evil' one, who is really just paranoid. The 'neutral' one, who isn't malicious or evil, but just overly 'practical', manipulating others without emotion. And then the 'original' one, who was once evil, but is now good.

I never thought to consider whether it referred to anyone else. I still think that meeting with earlier incarnations is the most likely meaning - especially given the 'none more powerful than you in your full glory' - they CAN'T be more powerful than a full TNO, as they are PIECES of him.

My thoughts exactly.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Hmm, I hadn't even thought of that - I want to say that the three aren't your enemies... but they really are. The entire game basically pits you against yourself, and you do have to pass through a lot of trials and tribulations left over by previous incarnations. I'm getting really curious as to what the deal really was.

I say, rather fun game to think about.

I would love to hear one of the (former) BI dev's comment on this but I don't think there's any left here...
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,382
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Emotional Vampire said:
Mikayel said:
"...but none more dangerous than your full glory" part..

I wouldn't even care about that part. It always seemed like more of a "filler" to me. It's basically just saying "You will beat them up". If it was a Bethesda game.

Also, it might be that "your full glory" refers to an insanely powerful incarnation in the past.
 

elenai

Novice
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
44
prophecy

Well I got impression that eremies three but none greater than you in full glory refers to good,practical and paranoid incarnation
 

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,797
Azrael the cat said:
We know the practical incarnation came before the paranoid one, and that there were numerous other incarnations between those two

The thing is, Deionarra's father is still alive (and when we meet him, he says his daughter's death was not that long ago).

As for Paranoid, judging from one of the entries in his journal, he happened only three incarnations before us.

Regarding the reason why the original incarnation was damned, I never had the feeling it was just a single, huge crime. From what he said of himself, it felt like he had lived a life of pure evil, committing terrible crimes all the time until his heart finally changed.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
No doubt he did a lot of evil things, but there is one particularly heinous act that is referenced a few times.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Avellone said somewhere:

Trias = twisted to and by evil (I don't know who twisted him)
Ravel = twisted to and by neutrality (she was likely born pitch-black evil, but for some reason Avellone said she is/became Neutral, twisted by the ages inside the Maze. Twisted by the great neutral (or even non-aligned) Lady of Pain)
Fjuh = twisted to and by good - he can only do good (twisted by Trias)
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
JrK said:
Ignus is just chaotic evil.
I don't know if Ignus can be described as evil. He doesn't seem any more evil than the fire he embodies. He is purely destructive force, but doesn't seem to have actual evil intentions - he kills things, because death is usual effect of being incinerated, he isn't actually interested in killing in itself, only in burning everything.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom