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Planescape Questions

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
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It's been a long time since I played it and I'm going to install it again soon. There are a lot of things about the plot I don't understand, though. Here are just the two that were on my mind.

1) Morte: What was his story? I never really got anything about him, except that at some point he lied to TNO and was either responsible for his immortality or responsible for whatever atrocious crime he committed that damned him to hell. And this conflicted with his inner nature because he was a liar, and a cheat, or something like that, but he felt guilty. Explanation would be neat

2) Was it explained why he doesn't lose his memory any more? There is a dialogue tree in the confrontation with TTO where he tells you you will always die and forget, and you say 'But I don't forget anymore how about them apples' sort of thing, but I don't remember an explanation of why. It fits well into the game because, out of all the incarnations, why are you playing this one? -> because he's the one who doesn't forget any more when he dies
 

PlanHex

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I'm playing through PS:T again these days, and did not want to spoil anything, since any spoilers ruin an experience like that which PS:T presents.
But then I thought "fuck this shit, I'm drunk and it's KC"

kingcomrade said:
1) Morte: What was his story? I never really got anything about him, except that at some point he lied to TNO and was either responsible for his immortality or responsible for whatever atrocious crime he committed that damned him to hell. And this conflicted with his inner nature because he was a liar, and a cheat, or something like that, but he felt guilty. Explanation would be neat
No, Morte was a sent to the Pillar of Skulls because he was a liar and a cheat
SPOILARS
and one his lies caused the death of TNO (maybe the first incarnation?), causing Morte's guilt and thereby eventual endless debt to TNO. It's only mentioned briefly when you ask Morte of his Baatorian smell, I think.

kingcomrade said:
2) Was it explained why he doesn't lose his memory any more? There is a dialogue tree in the confrontation with TTO where he tells you you will always die and forget, and you say 'But I don't forget anymore how about them apples' sort of thing, but I don't remember an explanation of why. It fits well into the game because, out of all the incarnations, why are you playing this one? -> because he's the one who doesn't forget any more when he dies
There is also a message in the Paranoid Incarnation's journal (the one that you have to learn a different language to understand) that says "don't worry dude, you'll totally remember everything after you die a couple more times" indicating your current predicament. But I don't think there's any further explanation.
 
Self-Ejected

ScottishMartialArts

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It's been about 18 months since my last playthrough so I'm a bit rusty, but as I recall Morte is NOT a mimir. He was one of the poor sons-a-bitches stuck in the pillar of Skulls on Baator, after having done some very bad things while alive -- kinda like TNO. When one of the previous incarnations visited the Pillar of Skulls, Morte convinced him to pull him out, which he did, and thereafter Morte follows TNO around.

As for the player incarnation's memory, he could potentially lose it again at the fortress of Regret. I forget the details, but TNO has visited the fortress of Regret about dozen times in the past, trying to regain his mortality each time but failing. Something about the Negative energy plane causes the incarnation to lose his memory. TNO then is deposited back at the other end of the door to the fortress, i.e. the Mortuary, where he wakes up wondering who he is and how he got there.

I apologize for not having all the details, but that's at least what I can remember off hand. Once I'm done with the Mech 3 expansion I really ought to do another Infinity Engine run through.
 

kingcomrade

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Ohhh, I totally forgot. He would only lose his memory if he dies to a Shadow or in the Fortress. My bad. I remember now.

Also I thought Morte was afraid of ending up in the pillar, but now I remember (I think a Sensate stone experience?) where TNO sees him and rescues him because of how pathetic he seemed, or something like that.
 

PlanHex

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kingcomrade said:
Ohhh, I totally forgot. He would only lose his memory if he dies to a Shadow or in the Fortress. My bad. I remember now.

Also I thought Morte was afraid of ending up in the pillar, but now I remember (I think a Sensate stone experience?) where TNO sees him and rescues him because of how pathetic he seemed, or something like that.
Nah, you're probably mixing it up with Pharod, who gave up everything to escape all the bad stuff he had done.

With Morte, it's a memory you recall from a conversation. He's in the pillar and push himself in front of you to ask that you take him away and promise all the knowledge in the world. Then, when he is separated from the Pillar, he does not know that which you want to know, prompting a beating and scorning.
 

Wyrmlord

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kingcomrade said:
2) Was it explained why he doesn't lose his memory any more? There is a dialogue tree in the confrontation with TTO where he tells you you will always die and forget, and you say 'But I don't forget anymore how about them apples' sort of thing, but I don't remember an explanation of why. It fits well into the game because, out of all the incarnations, why are you playing this one? -> because he's the one who doesn't forget any more when he dies
My and many other people's understanding based strictly on the game's text:

The game says that he is a broken man. But there is one piece of him that he needs to find and it will make him whole again, as told by the stones in his own tomb. If he finds that piece, all his life's memories will come back to him.

That piece was his own name. When your original incarnation tells you your name, you have the most giant flood of memories in the game, which raises you by atleast 20 levels or something. Hence, it is not possible for him to forget any more, because the repaired shell of his self can fully contain his personality.

Avellone's out-of-game and more elaborate explanation:

The Paranoid Nameless One said that if he dies three more deaths, he will forget no more. However, his mind is becoming weaker, and he is on the verge of becoming a mindless zombie. As he becomes a mindless zombie, the Transcendental One himself is withering away into near nothingness (think Pratchett's Small Gods). You could say that they are in a state where even death dies. So his current incarnation is his last chance to set things right, since he is no longer forgetting, but is also becoming weaker and weaker.

Both these things contradict each other somewhat, but both are well supported by the game itself. Actually, they refer to mutually exclusive concepts - that retaining his original name makes him whole again, and coming to this stage in his immortal development, he no longer forgets. So combining two and two, you now understand that he is now a full fledged immortal machine who forgets nothing and remembers everything; the most powerful man in the universe. This is what TTO fears, because if he comes to this state, he will keep running back and back to the Fortress to destroy him. And this is the state you can achieve, and it causes TTO to bluntly give in and just finish the whole business.

Frankly, the game should just have had an alternative ending where this all-powerful never-forgetting non-amnesiac immortal Nameless One should just have said that since everything is perfect for him now, he can just leave the Transcendental One and live his super powerful life in the planes and not bother about killing the Transcendental One.

But the game does not have that ending, even with the dialogue option, "How about I live my life and you live yours?" because

a) the developers got lazy
b) they thought the Blood War was the only cool way of ending the game, and just going on and living life like normal seemed anticlimatic
c) because maybe TNO was too emotionally invested in killing himself to stop now
d) probably just because he did not want himself and TTO to just wither away, despite being all powerful and immortal and delaying that fate longer
e) because both of them living any longer would destroy the space-time continuum
 

Jim Cojones

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Wyrmlord said:
Frankly, the game should just have had an alternative ending where this all-powerful never-forgetting non-amnesiac immortal Nameless One should just have said that since everything is perfect for him now, he can just leave the Transcendental One and live his super powerful life in the planes and not bother about killing the Transcendental One.

But the game does not have that ending, even with the dialogue option, "How about I live my life and you live yours?" because

a) the developers got lazy
b) they thought the Blood War was the only cool way of ending the game, and just going on and living life like normal seemed anticlimatic
c) because maybe TNO was too emotionally invested in killing himself to stop now
d) probably just because he did not want himself and TTO to just wither away, despite being all powerful and immortal and delaying that fate longer
e) because both of them living any longer would destroy the space-time continuum
There is an ending where TTO agrees to leave you alive and you come back to the Sigil - he doesn't have anything against it because there is no possibility for you to return (it might require killing Trias) and after being sent to Sigil TNO loses his memory again (why? I don't remember). It ends with a pic of TNO and Deionairra's ghost just like every other ending which not leads to getting mortality back.
 

FeelTheRads

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Jim Cojones said:
There is an ending where TTO agrees to leave you alive and you come back to the Sigil - he doesn't have anything against it because there is no possibility for you to return (it might require killing Trias) and after being sent to Sigil TNO loses his memory again (why? I don't remember). It ends with a pic of TNO and Deionairra's ghost just like every other ending which not leads to getting mortality back.

Eheh? How do you go about seeing that ending? Is it doable or just cut content?

I haven't played Torment with any restoration packs yet.
 

Wyrmlord

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FeelTheRads said:
Jim Cojones said:
There is an ending where TTO agrees to leave you alive and you come back to the Sigil - he doesn't have anything against it because there is no possibility for you to return (it might require killing Trias) and after being sent to Sigil TNO loses his memory again (why? I don't remember). It ends with a pic of TNO and Deionairra's ghost just like every other ending which not leads to getting mortality back.

Eheh? How do you go about seeing that ending? Is it doable or just cut content?

I haven't played Torment with any restoration packs yet.
I also have never heard of this ending.

I have ensured to see what Torment is like with focus on Charisma, focus on Intelligence, focus on Wisdom, and I don't think I remember any such thing.

All the Transcendental One tells you is, "You can afford that one, no matter what the chance." It was not enough for him to win, because you must also lose. He wanted you to live a life of constantly being hunted and put down by shadows.

The Transcendental One would not have bargained to anything short of a threat to his own existence.
 

inwoker

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From reading this topic and trying to recall my expierience I remmember what baffles me about PST. There is too much plot ambiguity, contradictions, so much stuff is uncertain. Fans always try to make some plot points matter something when designers actually never made them matter and just did what seemed cool at certain point of the game. This is actually the case with many fantasy and scifi plots, writers made them too complex to comprehend themselves. Fan groups always try to fill plot holes with something meaningful.
 

Wyrmlord

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inwoker said:
From reading this topic and trying to recall my expierience I remmember what baffles me about PST. There is too much plot ambiguity, contradictions, so much stuff is uncertain. Fans always try to make some plot points matter something when designers actually never made them matter and just did what seemed cool at certain point of the game. This is actually the case with many fantasy and scifi plots, writers made them too complex to comprehend themselves. Fan groups always try to fill plot holes with something meaningful.
Yes, but even in the writing process, even the mean writer starts off with a gist of the idea, and builds it up from that, without confusing himself too much. It's a left brain, right brain thing. One brain is good at conceiving ideas, the other is good at organizing them and building them up. To do both at the same time and just spontaneously start writing is an annoying and troublesome effort for any human being, and since Torment contains mountains of writing, it is not like Avellone just arbitrarily wrote down all that is happening. He has to get all his stuff together before he starts writing.

Somewhere slipups happen, and contradicitions come in, but there still would be some vague basic coherence between everything. Anyway, yes, you are right. For a sci-fi/fantasy writer, what is cool matters more than what is sensible, but writing anything, even TV shows, is just long and serious work; serious enough to put some thought into it. All the same, TV shows often desperately throw out some new episode, which has barely any arc with the previous one, but a writer for a videogame that has the luxury of being months in development can really take his time.
 

Helton

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inwoker said:
There is too much plot ambiguity, contradictions, so much stuff is uncertain.

Really?

Too much? There's some stuff on the fringes of the story like who was Morte 3000 years ago but the core I've always thought was very clear. Lumpy has some decent critiques of the plot, but that is for coincidence not for ambiguity.
 

Jim Cojones

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It has something to do with these lines but Torment dialogue file is difficult to read (well, they always are, but I found it easier to connect responses in Fallout or Arcanum files - probably because Torment has a single file for all dialogues and it doesn't even use any spaces between dialogue lines):

"YES, THE ANGEL THAT SHIELDS ITSELF WITH GOLDEN LIES. YOU LED ME TO HIM AT LAST. LIKE YOU, THE BETRAYER WAS DIFFICULT TO FIND. HE WILL DIE THE FINAL DEATH."

So you used me to find him? You wanted me to kill him, didn't you, so his knowledge would die -- then you tried to kill me, so *I* would forget where to find you.

"I SEE TIME'S BLADE HAS NOT BLED YOUR MIND OF ALL REASON. MY PURPOSE WAS ALWAYS SUCH: TO MAKE YOU FORGET. "

But *why?* Why do-

"BECAUSE I NEVER AGAIN WISH TO SUFFER YOUR *PRESENCE,* BROKEN ONE. YOU ARE AN IRRITATION, A REMINDER OF WHAT LIFE ONCE WAS, AND I DETEST SUCH REMINDERS. I WISH TO BE LEFT IN PEACE IN MY FORTRESS. AS YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN ME, I WISH TO FORGET YOU. FOREVER.YOU LIE. YOU HAVE ALWAYS FORGOTTEN. AND I HAVE ALWAYS REMEMBERED. IT WAS ALWAYS SUCH."

Then that is acceptable to me. But know that I will suffer your attacks no longer. You will keep the shadows here and allow me to live MY life, and I will allow you to live YOURS.

I could have played with Polish unofficial patch (which is a translation of: Fix Pack v1.37 by Platter, Restoration Pack by Cilantro and The Candlestick Quest by Platter) or with all the patches from Spellhold Studios, but I couldn't find anything about restoring such ending in readme of any of those.
 

Brother None

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Wyrmlord said:
Avellone's out-of-game and more elaborate explanation:

The Paranoid Nameless One said that if he dies three more deaths, he will forget no more. However, his mind is becoming weaker, and he is on the verge of becoming a mindless zombie. As he becomes a mindless zombie, the Transcendental One himself is withering away into near nothingness (think Pratchett's Small Gods). You could say that they are in a state where even death dies. So his current incarnation is his last chance to set things right, since he is no longer forgetting, but is also becoming weaker and weaker.

Where's that from? As far as I know the Transcendental One isn't withering at all.
MCA's take:<blockquote>RPGWatch: Could you clear up once and for all the exact relation between the Nameless One's deaths, his amnesia and the three incarnations?

Chris Avellone: Spoilers! Don't read any farther if you intend to play the game.

Every time the Nameless One dies before the start of the game, his personality is erased. This is the result of the magic that the night hag Ravel performed on him to make him immortal, since everything Ravel did always had a brutal drawback that unmakes all her altruistic efforts. She discovered that he lost his memory after she “tested” her work by killing the player - the player woke up and had forgotten her and the reason he had asked for immortality in the first place. Rinse and repeat for a few thousand incarnations or more.

As the start of the game, however, Ravel's "blessing" is breaking down, and the Nameless One is actually able to remember his previous deaths up until the start of the game. Ironically, this coincides with the fact that his mental degradation is also escalating, and the longer he is killed and reborn, he will eventually become nothing more than a mindless zombie that is impossible to kill. Once he loses his will, there will be no way for him to save himself - or at least discover what drove him to this state. The events of the game is his last chance in his lifetimes to put things right.

The three incarnations the player meets at the end game are (1) the practical incarnation who discovered that someone was purposely killing the player and did a great many unethical things to strike back (led the assault on the Fortress, assembled Deionarra, Dak'kon, Xachariah, and Morte, built the trapped tomb for the killer, left notes on the player's back, deceived (?) Dak'kon with the Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon), (2) the insane incarnation who did all sorts of historical damage and tried to dismantle and ruin all that the practical one did (the two obviously hate each other at the end - the paranoid incarnation made the dodecahedron trapped journal, got mazed by the Lady of Pain, killed the linguist Fin and strangled a bunch of other people in Sigil), and (3) the seemingly well-meaning incarnation, who is actually the one who started this whole ball rolling by being a bastard, and then suddenly realizing that the karmic wheel was going to roll around for him and tried to change his ways.

It's important to say, however, that the well-meaning original incarnation genuinely felt remorse for what he had done, and he wanted to try to fix it - the only problem is, after the first death, he forgot his grand goal and doomed thousands of incarnations to immortality. I always felt that this was the proper way to handle this because I always felt that the “immortality fix” he tried to achieve was a quick fix, when in fact, he should have just owed up and paid the piper in the first place.</blockquote>In fact, your question about Morte is cleared up in that interview too, KC.<blockquote>RPGWatch: What's Morte's story exactly and where did the inspiration for the character come from?

Chris Avellone: Spoilers: Morte was yanked from the Pillar of Skulls by the player after swearing an oath to serve him. The player did this because he thought Morte would retain all the knowledge of the Pillar of Skulls once he was removed from it – he was wrong.

Morte is responsible for the deaths of more than one of the player's incarnations and is believed to be responsible for the death of the first incarnation as well, but there is no evidence for this other than Morte's suspicion.

Morte sticks with the player seemingly out of “Mimir” responsibility (he's not a Mimir), but in fact, it is Morte's guilt - the one noble emotion he has, although he refuses to confront it - is what drives him to try to help the player on his quest.

Incarnations in the past, however, have considered the floating skull to be deceptive and did not trust it, thus, the warnings in the player's tomb concerning Morte. </blockquote>
Krokar said:
Did anyone read Planescape: Torment by Rhys Hess? Is it any good?

Been meaning to. I read the official novelization from TSR, which is pretty meh, if perhaps more setting-accurate and having a more plausible explanation for TNO's memories returning.
 

Gragt

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I need to replay the game but I remember that, during the final confrontation, TNO states that while TTO has flourished while he himself became broken, he is somehow fading away and it's why he uses the brambles of Ravel as his physical manifestation, despite the hatred he bears for her.

Looks like I forgot this game enough to play it again.
 

Zomg

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After playing MotB I started thinking that PS:T would have been much better if there had been a mental breakdown mechanic similar to the craving/hunger mechanic. As it is the "mental breakdown" stuff is 100% exposition.
 

Wyrmlord

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Zomg said:
After playing MotB I started thinking that PS:T would have been much better if there had been a mental breakdown mechanic similar to the craving/hunger mechanic. As it is the "mental breakdown" stuff is 100% exposition.
Yeah, the more you die, the more penalties on all stats you will have, which can only be reversed by long periods of resting.

And then limit resting to beds in inns.
 

Qwinn

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JimCojones:

There is no such alternate ending. All the text you quoted is already available in the game. That bit you quoted -can- continue (if you know enough about yourself) about whether or not youl continue to forget things after you die, but TO never agrees to the deal in question, nor can I see anything in game that suggests he ever did in an alternate universe.

Qwinn
 

Zomg

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Wyrmlord said:
Zomg said:
After playing MotB I started thinking that PS:T would have been much better if there had been a mental breakdown mechanic similar to the craving/hunger mechanic. As it is the "mental breakdown" stuff is 100% exposition.
Yeah, the more you die, the more penalties on all stats you will have, which can only be reversed by long periods of resting.

And then limit resting to beds in inns.

Ehh, time would have to matter for that to have any gameplay implications. If I could have thought of a good, easy design off the top of my head I would have posted it.
 

Helton

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List of non-essential but important/cool NPCs who are randomly selected from -- everytime you "die" one of them has a chance to die. That's what supposedly happens anyways.
 

Zomg

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Not really a very interesting system then, people would just reload when they died like in a normal game because you might be blindly cutting off some content. Plus the "random nobody in the universe dies" bit is a different issue from the mental breakdown, and evil/selfish Nameless doesn't need to care about it, whereas the mental breakdown aspect is supposed to be salient to any version of the character the player gets to make.
 

Helton

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Zomg said:
Not really a very interesting system then, people would just reload when they died like in a normal game because you might be blindly cutting off some content. Plus the "random nobody in the universe dies" bit is a different issue from the mental breakdown, and evil/selfish Nameless doesn't need to care about it, whereas the mental breakdown aspect is supposed to be salient to any version of the character the player gets to make.

Maybe but I think any system like this will encourage metagaming. You just can't have it both ways. You can't say "give me a penalty system" and then say "but that will make people reload! WAHHH", nature of the beast.

I thought the idea was cool because there are semi-mandatory deaths in the game which would make for an interesting C&C. The tomb in the Dead Nations for instance. I don't think there was any reason you had to go there. But if you did, you had to die. Reloading accounted for, that becomes a tough decision.

There are goodies in the tomb. But up to five people could die if I go in there, and they might have had quests and rewards! Maybe none would die. Is it worth it?
 

Gragt

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Would have been fun there would need to be some way to reverse the bad effects from this, just like in MotB your character can learn to keep the Spirit Eater "at peace" or even embrace his nature and use it against his enemies and thrive in the process, which can be a way to break the curse by turning it into something beneficial. One aspect I like with Torment is that while TNO is supposedly a broken being, he actually becomes stronger over the course of his adventures by remembering what he learned before, so in a way he benefits from his past incarnations, whoever or whatever they were. Still the game does not hurt from not giving an effective time limit because while it is clear that TNO must find the cause for his immortality, it isn't said as if it is an extremely urgent matter, unlike, say, the BG2 protagonist who must get his soul back very fast else he will be dominated by the taint of Bhaal and end up as a mindless beast.
 

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