Piranhabytes and Jowood separate, Gothic goes Console

[aries202]

As I understand it, Jowood wanted PB to make Gothic 3 in 2 years or so. And maybe Jowood also wanted PB to use a new engine when PN made Gothic 3. It goes without saying, imo, that this simply was asking fora disaster. Gothic is as huge a game as Oblvion and Oblivon did take Bethesda about 3½-4 years to develop, the last 6-8 months doing bugtesting and finishing and polishing the game.

I think that Jowood wanted to release the game just in time for Christmas so that they could benefit from Christmas sales. However, if we compare sales to Oblivion's sales, Oblivion sold well over 3 mill. units, and Oblivion wasn't released untill March/April 2006. (and 600,000 units in ½ year isn't that bad, really).

For now... let's what's happening in the next few days or weeks...

 

[Elwro]

G3 came out in November. It wasn't rushed for Christmas. It was rushed for November.

(?)

 

[taxacaria]

Jowood is a cut-throat and has financial probs.
Nevertheless G3 was a disappointment, and I didn't expected G4 to become much better from piranha bytes. In my eyes the Gothic series has died already, and so I'm not worrying about future developers and/or console shit.
The G3 PC version was shit already - developed for the US-mainstream market place, and so the console ideas for G4 are the logic consequences.
Piranha Byte isn't able to manage a project or a dead line, and so all Gothic games were released buggy and unready, except for the add-on The Night of the Raven.
And the story idea of Gothic has come to an end - lore has been raped at G3 already.
They should make another game, in the Gothic world, perhaps - but not make a sequel again.

 

[Higher Game]

If G3 sold 500,000+ copies and STILL bombed, then they spent far too much money on graphics, period. Hell, lots of companies can count a 100,000+ seller as a success. If you can't break even on half a million sales, you're fucked up.

Interestingly, the Gothic games come to mind as some of the best that could make a console transition. And, given the tendency for console games to be much less buggy, I truly feel that Gothic 4 on Xbox 360 could be a better game than Gothic 3 on PC. Well, the consoles have less RAM, so areas would have to be smaller, but Gothic 3 was overly huge, anyway.

I really think a console Gothic game could help save the series.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If G3 sold 500,000+ copies and STILL bombed, then they spent far too much money on graphics, period. Hell, lots of companies can count a 100,000+ seller as a success. If you can't break even on half a million sales, you're fucked up.

Really? Fascinating. I'm sure you can't wait to back these crazy theories up with all kinda facts and arguments, so go ahead.

I really think a console Gothic game could help save the series.

Yep. A lot of series have been <s>fucked</s> saved by the consoles, so it's about time.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Well, the consoles have less RAM, so areas would have to be smaller, but Gothic 3 was overly huge, anyway.

I really think a console Gothic game could help save the series.

Well, i've always thought zoning off the areas would of been a good idea anyway. Nordmarr, myrtana and varant etc, it'd be similar to gothic 2 with the valley of mines and khorinis.

 

[Higher Game]

Really? Fascinating. I'm sure you can't wait to back these crazy theories up with all kinda facts and arguments, so go ahead.

100k copies at $50 a copy is 5 million dollars. Retailers make very little of that, and they often make big money on snacks, extended warranties, tech support, and so on. The games are there just to draw people in. Publishers tend to take a decent chunk, but a lot of that goes to advertising, promotion, and other things that self published games also have to deal with, so publishers don't really take all that much if you consider how much they give back. Taxes are not bad if you're a corporation, which get all sorts of tax benefits, and employees don't have to be paid much because of 2 reasons: they're either idealists who love what they do, not for the money, or they're newbies who need any kind of experience (EA employees). Costs can be controlled with just a little common sense, really.

Many series easily get by on 100k sales. 500k is simply huge, especially by PC game standards. It's simply a fact that too much effort was put into graphics, which were too expensive.

Yep. A lot of series have been <s>fucked</s> saved by the consoles, so it's about time.

Gothic isn't Fallout, Geneforge, or any other hardcore RPG. It's an action/adventure game with a load of RPG elements, kind of in between genres. I'd suspect Wii sword combat in Gothic 4 would be more fun than the Gothic 3 system, anyway. :D Still, Gothic 4 would probably do alright on PC, as well, since much of Gothic 3's costs were in the engine and art, which could be reused. It would be a shame for the series to end now.

 

[United Nations]

Switching developers doesn't always turn out bad. PB had some great ideas, but they couldn't release a stable game if their lives depended on it. As an example, I'll reference my favorite game of all time of any genre, Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. Blood Omen, the first game in the series, was released by Silicon Knights as a buggy, Zelda style RPG. The franchise was picked up by Crystal Dynamics three years later, and transformed into a Tomb Raider styled Adventure game. The transition couldn't have gone any smoother, and resulted in the only console game I play to this day.

 

[Shoelip]

Switching developers doesn't always turn out bad. PB had some great ideas, but they couldn't release a stable game if their lives depended on it. As an example, I'll reference my favorite game of all time of any genre, Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. Blood Omen, the first game in the series, was released by Silicon Knights as a buggy, Zelda style RPG. The franchise was picked up by Crystal Dynamics three years later, and transformed into a Tomb Raider styled Adventure game. The transition couldn't have gone any smoother, and resulted in the only console game I play to this day.

I have it on PC too.

 

[Higher Game]

That's because you have bad taste. The original Legacy of Kain destroys any sequels.

 

[United Nations]

That's because you have bad taste. The original Legacy of Kain destroys any sequels.

Sadly enough, I never played much of the original Blood Omen, as it looks ancient on my PS2/SDTV, and I could never get the HOTU version to work. Soul Reaver is widely considered the hallmark of the series, which is quite an accomplishment considering all RPG elements were dropped in favor of a much more linear approach. I'm not saying that the Gothic franchise would benefit from such a move, but a relatively unknown developer such as CD Projekt Red (The Witcher) couldn't hurt the series any further. If Gothic 4 goes the same route of Shadowrun, Thief 3, or even Oblivion, all hope is lost.

 

[Kraszu]

Gothic isn't Fallout, Geneforge, or any other hardcore RPG. It's an action/adventure game with a load of RPG elements, kind of in between genres..

Dialogue trees, diferent ways to solve quest and no hand holding is consider hardcore today.

 

[aries202]

I think you all are forgetting one thing:

Piranha Bytes 20-25 people owns Pluto 13 GMBH together. There is, afaik, no CEO and no employees
at Pluto 13 GMBH as they all own the firm in unison (or together).

And yes, Gothic 3 did sell about 500-600,000 copies, but I think the publisher jowood took a good chunk out of PB's earnings (or profits).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Really? Fascinating. I'm sure you can't wait to back these crazy theories up with all kinda facts and arguments, so go ahead.

100k copies at $50 a copy is 5 million dollars.

And? Let me explain:

1. Development
20 developers x 3 years x 50k/year avg = 3 mil. Overall, I've been told by different developers that the amount is much higher and is at least 4-5 mil or more. I hope it's clear that this cost will have to be recovered. Also, let's not forget about other costs associated with running a business, but we'll disregard for them for now.

2. Packaging
7-10 bucks per copy depending on the setup. Let's follow Michael's example and use 10 to keep the math simple.

3. Marketing
Depends on a game, but we can safely assume it's 500k to 1 mil. It probably cost way more to advertise God of War 2. It was an almost non-stop TV campaign.

4. Retail
Usually 10 bucks, assuming that they are interested in your game. Nobody wanted to sell Wiz 8, if I recall corectly, and Sir-Tech made some deal with EB Games for 4 weeks of selling time only. Let's also disregard the transportation expenses for now, but I'm sure you understand that shipping games across the North America neither free nor cheap.

So, as Michael explained we are now down to only 30 bucks per box, minus all the expenses we are disregarding. At 100,000 copies it comes to 3 mil, but it cost us at least 3 mil to make a game. If Michael is correct, it actually cost us 6 mil, so so far we've lost 3 mil. In other words, we need to sell 200,000 just to recover what it took the developer to make the game. Considering the advertisement and other expenses, the number goes to 250k, so the actual "the game sold well" number is about 400-500k if you want everyone to make money and feel good about doing business together.

The games are there just to draw people in.

Uh, no. The shelf space is very valuable, and the store chains make great money selling games. The upsell (warranties and extras) are the icing on the cake.

Taxes are not bad if you're a corporation, which get all sorts of tax benefits...

Unless it's 0%, it's an additional expense.

... and employees don't have to be paid much because of 2 reasons: they're either idealists who love what they do, not for the money...

Proof?

Many series easily get by on 100k sales.

Proof?

...500k is simply huge, especially by PC game standards.

Proof?

 

[BigWeather]

G3 came out in November. It wasn't rushed for Christmas. It was rushed for November.

(?)

Most games that are slated for holiday release need to be on the shelves in mid-November. The two I worked on were that way. It was absolutely crucial to make that date not only because John and Jane Q. Public do lots of shopping in late November and early December but because publishers often purchase end cap space to snag J&J Q. Public's attention during that time. Our publisher had bought end caps at GameStop, etc. to give the product visibility for those crucial weeks. If we slipped we'd have forfeited that space (and money), not like they'd delay it for when we do ship.

Niche games with hard-core fan bases or "event" games can ship late December no problem. They'll get their audience. BG1 was that way. If Gears of War 2 or GTA IV slipped to late December availability they'd probably not see a huge sales dip. Also see WoW:tBC -- no problem shipping in January.

Maybe Gothic has a hard-core enough fan base that they were being rushed for Christmas, but far more likely it was being rushed for pre-Thanksgiving by the publisher.

 

[doctor_kaz]

No big deal here. I wouldn't mind seeing PB do something new. Something that's not traditional orcs&fireballs&swords fantasy type stuff.

 

[Volourn]

"Proof?"

Take a gander at that list of top 100 (or so) selling games of the 2000s. Most of the titles on that list didn't even have a million sales (not even close). Of course, it wasn't the most accurate of number curnching but it shows that most games do not need 1 million sales to make money, and to be considered successful.

 

[Vault Dweller]

...so the actual "the game sold well" number is about 400-500k...

...most games do not need 1 million sales to make money, and to be considered successful.

Did I say anything about 1 mil?

 

[Sir_Brennus]

G3 came out in November. It wasn't rushed for Christmas. It was rushed for November.

(?)

Most games that are slated for holiday release need to be on the shelves in mid-November. The two I worked on were that way. It was absolutely crucial to make that date not only because John and Jane Q. Public do lots of shopping in late November and early December but because publishers often purchase end cap space to snag J&J Q. Public's attention during that time. Our publisher had bought end caps at GameStop, etc. to give the product visibility for those crucial weeks. If we slipped we'd have forfeited that space (and money), not like they'd delay it for when we do ship.

Niche games with hard-core fan bases or "event" games can ship late December no problem. They'll get their audience. BG1 was that way. If Gears of War 2 or GTA IV slipped to late December availability they'd probably not see a huge sales dip. Also see WoW:tBC -- no problem shipping in January.

Maybe Gothic has a hard-core enough fan base that they were being rushed for Thanksgiving / Christmas, but far more likely it was being rushed for pre-Thanksgiving by the publisher.

BULL

Gothic 3 release date:

Gothic III JoWood Productions 10/13/06

That settles the score, I think.

To sum it up for those who still believe in the JOWUD IS TEH EVIL myth: G3 was not forced to be released for christmas by the publisher. It was the dumb developer that ran out of self funding money (since early summer '06) and reported the game to be complete and ready to ship.

PB is the one to blame. It makes me angry to see morons as WoG's Claw defending every stupid move Pluto13 has made in the last year until the last bit of credebility is lost.

 

[Sir_Brennus]

Yep. A lot of series have been <s>fucked</s> saved by the consoles, so it's about time.

C'Mon VD! You know that G1 was originally was planned for consoles and the core gameplay never changed much. The whole Gothic series is a console game at its core. So, I really think that a Gothic game really doesn't need to be "dumbed down" to be playable on a 360 or a PS3.

The whole zoning technology didn't work well on PCs with less than 2 Gigs anyway, so they absolutly had to redo than one anyway for the next PC game with the same engine.

 

[Micmu]

You know that G1 was originally was planned for consoles and the core gameplay never changed much. The whole Gothic series is a console game at its core. So, I really think that a Gothic game really doesn't need to be "dumbed down" to be playable on a 360 or a PS3.

True. Hence the weird control scheme and limited/no mouse support some people hated that much.
Developers themselves said they wanted to release it on console but abandoned their plans later.
With G3 they made a real PC interface and controls and improved on RPG elements. Too bad it also lost it's soul G1 and G2 had, even as neat action/adventures. That's why I blame PB more than Jowood. Bye Gothic.

 

[aries202]

G3 came out in November. It wasn't rushed for Christmas. It was rushed for November.

(?)

Most games that are slated for holiday release need to be on the shelves in mid-November. The two I worked on were that way. It was absolutely crucial to make that date not only because John and Jane Q. Public do lots of shopping in late November and early December but because publishers often purchase end cap space to snag J&J Q. Public's attention during that time. Our publisher had bought end caps at GameStop, etc. to give the product visibility for those crucial weeks. If we slipped we'd have forfeited that space (and money), not like they'd delay it for when we do ship.

Niche games with hard-core fan bases or "event" games can ship late December no problem. They'll get their audience. BG1 was that way. If Gears of War 2 or GTA IV slipped to late December availability they'd probably not see a huge sales dip. Also see WoW:tBC -- no problem shipping in January.

Maybe Gothic has a hard-core enough fan base that they were being rushed for Christmas, but far more likely it was being rushed for pre-Thanksgiving by the publisher.

I know (or can remmeber) that Gothic 3 was released in North America around Thanksgiving Day weekend in 2006, which means late November as most Christmas shopping in the US seem to begin aaround Thanksgiving Day Weekend. It is also pretty clear to me that Gothic wanted to make it big on the US market and failed miserably at it.
Not just because of the bugs in the game, but because, imo, Jowood, the publisher 'forced' Piranha Bytes to make a game that was more marketable to the Americans than the Europeans. In doing so, the baby went out with the bathwater,
(this is Danish expression meaning that the content of the game also went out of the game when PB did try to make a game for the Americans), since PB was 'forced' to make an open-endend wold, which was huge, freeform gameplay, three huge areas, and maybe also 'forced' to use or build a totally new engine for Gothic 3.

As I understand Jowood funded the development of Gothic 3, and the one with the money usually calls the shots, meaning that PB really couldn't say no to nicer graphics, a new engine (maybe), the freeform gameplay and so on... To, Jowood, hoped that Gothic would and could compete against Oblivon. However, Gothic is way more hardcore than Oblivion is, e.g. there is no piecharts, no maps, (at first), you have to read directions, or listen very carefully, dialoque, even written one, is very text heavy.
Jowood & possibly PB, too, forgot what G3 was --- in order to make a quick buck, I think.
And in doing that --- they lost customer after customer. Sad --- but true. Gothic was, is, and will always be a niche product that maybe 500-600,000 people will buy. (or maybe even a 800-900,000 people will buy, if Jowood is very lucky...)

As for the console version of Gothic, if Jowood (and PB) already know that maybe 400-600,000 people will buy a Gothic game, then selling another 400-500,000 units for consoles will be earnings --- free of chage so to speak. I can't help thinking what if G3 had come out both for pc & console. 500,000 units for pc and maybe 500,000 units for the console could maybe made things turn out a bit different, but that's another story, I think. And, of course, pure speculation.

I just hope a final patch will be released...

edit:
As for the release date: Yes, the European release were Friday Oct 13th 2006. However, this was the latest possible EU release date, if & when G3 were to come out in the US for Thanksgivinf day weekend late in November 2006. It just seems to me that PB, and Jowood, did cater more to the American market than the European market.

 

[cutterjohn]

Actually G3 was published by an itsy bity teeny tiny publisher in the U.S. know as Aspyr(or Asspire if your prefer) who did just about zero marketing.

Other than that they are known for doing most mac ports, although they tend to be ported at a minimum of a year later, cost more than the PC originally did(usually the PC version is bargain binned by this time), usually have less stuff in the box, and they usually make extremely poor choices in the games that they port. Their mac ports are usually OK if you can take the inflated price and the wait.

In recent years they appear to be making a half assed stab at becoming a Windows game publisher as well...

[EDIT]
Oh, I forgot a point, like Jowood they tend to have shitty support for whatever crap they manage to publish as well...

 

[Claw]

I remember there being speculation that Jowood sold the NA distribution rights for a fixed price for some quick cash.
I wonder who got the worse end of that deal.

What annoys me is that the Americans fixed errors in the intro, while the PBs were busy explaining at great length why a VO was totally too complicated to do. For them. You really have to wonder about their technical competence sometimes.

 

[DOS-fanboy]

I wonder how much of this was Gothic 3's fault.

I was a full-on gothic fanboy. Used to advertise the first two to just about every gamer I ever met who had a PC. Played through 1 and 2 at least 5 times a piece.

Then came gothic 3. I spent two weeks tweaking the .ini files and performing arcane magic over my CPU in an effort to get it to run without 5 seocnd freezes every 2 minutes, and what did I see when I started playing? Combat so pathetically easy and poorly balanced that it made me uninstall the first two and ignore the series altogether.

The Gothic 3 boards were (and still are) a chaotic, hellish mess of anger and disappointment. That obviously had something to do with this.

I wonder whose fault it is that Gothic 3 was such a promising yet horribly flawed game? Early push for release by Jowood? Piranha Bytes desperation for the "newbie RPG'er" Oblivion crowd's money?