Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[AwesomeButton]

Let's keep it simple: Which criticism applied to PoE can't be applied to the IE games BG and IWD?

 

[Haplo]

I don't think anybody on this forum can say with a straight face that PoE is as analogically good as KotOR2, MotB or New Vegas (even though I despise its gameplay, but that's my problem, I can separate my own preferences and the quality of something), or ever Alpha Protocol. Those games were made with thought and an artist's understanding.

Sorry, but I can. I do love MotB although it did suffer greatly from using a pretty bad engine and the epic level power creep.
KotOR2 was a good game, but very buggy, unfinished and unpolished.
New Vegas... feel free to flog me, but I've never understood all the praise it gets. It does have a better story and faction system then Fallout 3. Somewhat better character development system... which is still but a pale shade of Fallout 1/2. Also it has inferior area design and atmosphere compared even with F3. Give some, take some. Nowhere near F1/2 quality for me.
Alpha Protocol I didn't play. In general I think FPS game format sucks for cRPG experience. Unless they are turn-based blobbers (but then they are hardly shooters).

Out of those I liked MotB the most. But those are all flawed games for me (to a varying degree). In comparison, PoE feels very complete, content rich, smooth and polished.
It is the best Obsidian game to date IMO.

 

[AwesomeButton]

If I didn't love the western setting, the music, and how believable these two made the game feel (i.e. "atmosphere"), I probably would have passed FONV or at least not finished it.

 

[Prime Junta]

I don't think anybody on this forum can say with a straight face that PoE is as analogically good as KotOR2, MotB or New Vegas (even though I despise its gameplay, but that's my problem, I can separate my own preferences and the quality of something), or ever Alpha Protocol.

Overall, FONV > P:E > MotB > KotOR2.

Haven't played Alpha Protocol so couldn't say about that.

(If you're talking writing only, then P:E is clearly the weakest of the bunch ofc. But in terms of gameplay KotOR2 is complete rubbish from top to bottom, while MotB has good character-building but is otherwise awful. FONV's gameplay is excellent if you like twitch/RPGs with guns.)

 

[the_shadow]

I've finished White March parts 1 and 2, and have hit the level cap without even having done all the side-quests. Ironically the hardest fight in the game wasn't an end boss like the Kraken (a joke boss) and the Eyeless or the Adra Dragon, but the head abbot and his monks at the Temple of Forgotten Memories. They moved so fast I couldn't get a bead on them, and they air-juggled my ass. Thankfully they are susceptible to confusion, otherwise I'd still be stuck on that fight.

The one thing I will say about combat in PoE is that the outcome is decided in the first 5-10 seconds. If you don't get your major buffing and disabling spells cast, as well as enough focus generated for your cipher, you're dead. Some of the new spells/talents/items added in White March are also overpowered. A Level 4 iceball spell that paralyzes? The ability for every character to learn Whisper of Treason and cast Magic Missiles? A greatsword that has a chance to destroy undead on every strike? Yikes.

 

[Lacrymas]

Let's keep it simple: Which criticism applied to PoE can't be applied to the IE games BG and IWD?

Uhm, I already listed the differences? The delivery and most of the writing is worse. The 3D models are an eye-sore in the worst way, there is no unified art direction. The dungeons are bland (I can't stress this enough, PoE's dungeons are soul-crushingly bad) and samey compared to IWD (BG is a different beast, but Durlag's Tower is better than everything in PoE). The combat system is absolute trash compared to both after around 9th-10th lvl, too fast and clusterfucky, too frontloaded, the outcome is decided in the first 5 seconds, you use the same spells and abilities each time, the ones you don't use are garbage. Terrible encounter design in the base game and up to almost the entirety of WM1. The companions might as well not exist, they are both wet rags and inconsequential, offering nothing that can't be done better by adventurers. The maps are even samey-er than BG1 with even fewer things to see, they are absolutely barren in terms of content and are smaller, so they feel claustrophobic. Defiance Bay or Twin Elms can't compare to Baldur's Gate (the city), they are both smaller and lifeless, BG is situated in a very good spot in the story, there is anticipation for its arrival and feels like a reward, DB feels like punishment. There is no variety in terms of character styles, all classes play the same in the same roles, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Tank (I'm generous), Support. It's not-BG1 in the worst possible ways.

The question is "what criticism of BG1 and IWD can apply to PoE?", outside of the maps in BG1 being kinda empty and the quests being basically the same kind of fetching.

KotOR2 = MotB > Alpha Protocol >> New Vegas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PoE.

Since we aren't playing chess or Tetris, the gameplay is not the only element in existence and KotOR2 is good despite its unfinished and unpolished state. PoE's gameplay is bad after a certain point either way and that is all it can offer because everything else is bad.

 

[Haplo]

(...)The 3D models are an eye-sore in the worst way, there is no unified art direction.
(...) (I can't stress this enough, PoE's dungeons are soul-crushingly bad)
(...)The combat system is absolute trash compared to both after around 9th-10th lvl, too fast and clusterfucky, too frontloaded, the outcome is decided in the first 5 seconds, you use the same spells and abilities each time, the ones you don't use are garbage.

Terrible encounter design in the base game and up to almost the entirety of WM1.

The companions might as well not exist, they are both wet rags and inconsequential, offering nothing that can't be done better by adventurers. (...)

(...)There is no variety in terms of character styles, all classes play the same in the same roles, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Tank (I'm generous), Support. It's not-BG1 in the worst possible ways. (...)

Lol, talk about exaggeration. At this point I don't think I can take you seriously.

 

[Lacrymas]

No, it's not exaggeration. It's truly what it is. I forgot to mention its linearity, it's masquerading as non-linear, but it's actually one of the most railroaded RPGs I've ever played. I have no idea why you and Prime Junta are so devoted to this game, even to the point of not actually addressing any points anyone has, but saying "lol, it's an exaggeration, can't take you seriously" or "lol, your pearl-clutching is tiresome" without realizing that that strengthens my case. It has nothing to inspire such loyalty.

 

[Jimmious]

It is an exaggeration and you are clearly biased against this game. I can disagree and argue about most of your points plus most of them are completely subjective points of view. For example not liking the character models is your problem alone. I find them really good.
You have no idea why Prime Junta is devoted to the game, we don't have an idea why you are so devoted to hating it. Go figure.

 

[Prime Junta]

I have no idea why you and Prime Junta are so devoted to this game

Easy. I really dig RTwP isometric fantasy RPGs, and Pillars is far and away the best one since the IE games. And as I've said many times, IMO it's about in the middle of that pack -- PS:T > BG2 > Pillars ≈ IWD > BG1 > IWD2. Perfect? Hell no, but then neither were any of those.

Also anyone who thinks BG1 is better than Pillars has some massive nostalgia goggles going, or just otherwise has very weird taste.

 

[Haplo]

There, I'll admit PoE has flaws:
Does the game have serious pacing issues? Sure.
Is the story somewhat disjointed? Yes, although not as much as for example Witcher 1 - another game I like a lot.
Writing? Vidya game standard, with text-heavy lore-dump emphasis.
Is the power curve reasonably balanced across the game? Hell, no! Apart from poor character development pacing, the game suffers from too many + too powerful active abilities, often aoe.
Is the main city up to par/atmosphere? Nope, definitely not.
Is the combat clear and easy to control? Nope, it's a bit of a clusterfuck, as you wrote. Lots of enemies, fast flow, active skill spam. Not easy to see what's going on sometimes. Could be significantly improved (what is actually supposed to happen in PoE2)

Then again:
Huge variety in character classes and their mechanics, huge character customization and development options. Few games make character building that much fun.
Combat system is excellent for a RTwP. Many options, fast paced and a lot of fun.
Very good itemization.
Excellent encounter design in WM.
WM in general, as well as some sections of the vanilla game (Roderick's Keep!)
Graphics: Better then I came to expect from the genre.
A lengthy game, lots of content, well worth the money.

Do I like the overall package wayyy more then I liked BOTH BG parts back when I was a kid? Betcha!

 

[Lacrymas]

It is an exaggeration and you are clearly biased against this game. I can disagree and argue about most of your points plus most of them are completely subjective points of view. For example not liking the character models is your problem alone. I find them really good.
You have no idea why Prime Junta is devoted to the game, we don't have an idea why you are so devoted to hating it. Go figure.

I am not biased against it. Even though I hated when it first came out I was willing to give it a second chance now with all bells and whistles attached. I enjoyed it a bit more until a certain point and then it all came crashing down. It's just ...not good and that's my honest evaluation after being prepared and in a mindset to like it. You might say that I'm lying and I played it so I can hate on it a bit more, but I wouldn't do that to myself, I wouldn't waste my time in such a manner. And if you can argue my points then do it, nobody is stopping you.

KotOR2 = MotB > Alpha Protocol >> New Vegas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PoE.

(...)The 3D models are an eye-sore in the worst way

As opposed to KotOR2/MotB?

(...) (I can't stress this enough, PoE's dungeons are soul-crushingly bad)

As opposed to KotOR2/MotB?

Terrible encounter design in the base game and up to almost the entirety of WM1.

As opposed to KotOR2/MotB?

The 3D models in MotB and KotOR2 don't clash with the backgrounds. The models in PoE look like they are from another game. KotOR2 and MotB's dungeons are actually better (only the air base and the Trayan Academy in KotOR2 are pretty lame), the encounter design is almost non-existent in both but, like I said, they don't offer just combat.

 

[Prime Junta]

Haplo You liked it more than BG2? Huh.

Spoiler

And I'm the fanboy?

 

[Sizzle]

Lacrymas, dude, I like talking with you, you always devote time to thinking out your arguments (even when I disagree with them), and you try to engage in the discussion without spouting edgy-Codex one-liners.

Still, sometimes it's hard to take you seriously. For example, when you say you like Siege of Dragonspear's writing more.

To me, this doesn't indicate you liking brevity (as you claim), but simply that you're willing to cut an IE game more slack, even when it comes with god-awful writing, then you would an IE-like (PoE), which you analyzed and critiqued a lot more.

 

[Jimmious]

I am not biased against it. Even though I hated when it first came out I was willing to give it a second chance now with all bells and whistles attached. I enjoyed it a bit more until a certain point and then it all came crashing down. It's just ...not good and that's my honest evaluation after being prepared and in a mindset to like it. You might say that I'm lying and I played it so I can hate on it a bit more, but I wouldn't do that to myself, I wouldn't waste my time in such a manner. And if you can argue my points then do it, nobody is stopping you.

I definitely won't say you're lying. It's pretty clear you don't like the game. You think it's bad and so on.
On the other hand I kinda love it and I played through it twice already. And while we could argue about that and your specific points, it's obvious that it won't really matter since you seem to be set on your mind (and I kinda am too tbh).
All I'm saying is to not project your opinion like it should be the universal truth - it's not obviously. You of course have every right to hate everything about PoE, no question about that

 

[Lacrymas]

Still, sometimes it's hard to take you seriously. For example, when you say you like Siege of Dragonspear's writing more.

You are still hung up about that, huh? I know it's trendy to hate on SoD, calling it a 1/10 game and a SJW-infested pit with no redeeming qualities, but that's extreme bias. Outside of not having so much text and descriptions in a visual medium, the writing in SoD at least doesn't waste your time with such glee while masturbating thinking about itself like PoE's. The SJW elements aren't as prevalent as people make them out to be and the main plot, as a self-contained entity, makes more sense than PoE's, so that's an automatic plus. The Dwarves of Dumathoin dungeon is better than all the dungeons in base PoE and WM1 (can't speak about 2 or Cragholdt castle yet). People accuse me of being biased against PoE (while that's not true), but they themselves are extremely more biased against SoD without even having played it or having quit the moment they talked to Mizhena. Maybe you should take me more seriously and go play it without some ideological cloud around your head and, who knows, you might be surprised. It's a 6/10 game and it's worth one playthrough. Lilura even gave it a 7.5/10, but she has ulterior motives.

 

[Sizzle]

We've been over this, while I do dislike SoD over its political stances (I would be just as critical about it if was extreme right politics, instead of far left), the parts I presented for analysis (that dialogue right at the beginning of the game) had nothing political about them - just plain old bad writing.

 

[Lacrymas]

PoE also has bad writing, though, that's the thing. Have I ever compared the technical quality of their writing? All I said was that SoD has less text overall, so it goes by faster, it has less descriptions in a visual medium and the main story, as a self-contained entity, makes more sense. Those are enough to put it above PoE's and that's what I'm doing.

 

[Sizzle]

Disagree about that - I consider awful short writing to be much worse than bad long writing, but let's not get into that entire discussion again, neither one of us will convince the other

 

[Iznaliu]

PoE also has bad writing

All video games have bad writing; as has been said in some thread by JarlFrank, it's a much different beast from writing a book or a movie script, and instead of trying to improve what they've got, writers have been forced to reinvent the wheel as the video-game market changes in the blink of an eye.

 

[Quillon]

bad long writing

How is it bad tho? Yeah its long and unnecessarily descriptive but I haven't noticed any lines stood out as out of place/cringeworthy during my playthroughs nor seen any screenshots from people here as they like to show for proof of bad writing.

Except for Pallegina tho, can't decide if its the writing or VO but it felt cringy listening to her, always left me uneasy like she didn't belong in this game/setting(maybe its her accent coupled with most of her lines containing invented vailian words). Later on her VA voiced Ondra too I guess(?) but not with that awful accent so there was no issue for me.

 

[CptMace]

How is it bad tho? Yeah its long and unnecessarily descriptive

Way to - partially - answer your own question there.
That's why we emphasis the difference between pure literature and vg writing. You can produce a most inventive and lyrical piece of writing, if it hurts the game, it simply isn't good.
But then again, PoE isn't that good on a pure literature aspect, which makes the whole experience even more ponderous.

 

[Haplo]

Haplo You liked it more than BG2? Huh.

Spoiler

And I'm the fanboy?

Yeah. Somehow at the time I was playing BG 2, I enjoyed the time with it, but wasn't really immersed or impressed. Companions were mostly either boring (Anomen), annoying (Nalia) or over-the-top (Minsc). With only some tolerable, like Keldorn, Viconia, Jan Jansen or Mazzy.
AD&D 2nd ed. was a very clunky system. Hell, I liked many aspects of NWN1 better. Even though scope and story was a huge decline, 3rd ed. was such a huge improvement! And HotU was just pure fun.

BG2 was really good in scope, party vs party encounters and mage spells/duels. The caveat being that other classes were mostly sword fodder.
Also it had some memorable encounters, like Kan'Gaxx.
But I wouldn't necessarily praise its overall area/encounter design while belittling PoE. Especially that those things were massively improved in TWM.


Overall PoE gives way more options. The combat is faster and more interesting. Character building - there's no contest. And that area is pretty important for me.
I like the overall package better, even though it does have its flaws.

 

[Lacrymas]

How is it bad tho?

Start from here, since we've been over this. You might want to read Jeff's 2 blog posts, too.

 

[Quillon]

Not talking about the whole thing, am asking how is any given line is bad? to the statement "bad long writing". It can be bad cos its long but I don't think its both bad and long.