Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Infinitron]

AwesomeButton Once again, I think you really overestimate the importance of the round stuff, but otherwise, I think there's certainly a legitimate argument to be made that RTwP CRPGs should never have gone past AD&D-style mechanics with itemization as the main character customization mechanic. I don't personally agree with that (because I love me some complex character building) but I can understand the other side.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I'm playing both games and trying to put my finger on what makes the IE game's combat feel easier to follow. I think a large part of it is the long personal round time (the IWD manual says it's 7 seconds) and the fact that rounds are mostly equal between all characters on screen - unless you're a fighter with grand mastery and have 2 attacks per round (but even then, the round time itself remains unchanged), or you are hasted/slowed, but even then it's just divide by 2/multiply by 2.

The IWD manual also says that there is a random modifier of a small amount of time added to/substracted from the personal round time, but it doesn't affect my perception of combat being more orderly. In PoE where recovery times have no random modifiers, I can't ever tell whose turn will be next, unless the battle is very simple.

 

[Infinitron]

Update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/1527440

Seems Patch 3.02 has been released.

 

[Roguey]

Not for me they haven't.

If they upload it before a hypothetical 3.03, I'm going to start playing considering it's been a year since release and I've cleared everything else for the time being (not touching Underrail until it's in a state of more completeness).

 

[Trashos]

So, yes, PoE is more complex, but only tedium comes out of this complexity.

A major advantage of the IE games - the asynchronous individual rounds of the IE games are waaay better than the impossible to follow irregular intervals in which PoE characters preform actions. This has a big role in making combat easier to follow in the IE games, and I used to tell this to Obsidian during the Backer Beta days. Let's take a "simple" (PoE "simple") example:
9 characters are on screen - a party of 6 and 3 enemies.
Character 1 has .9 s until he can take action
Character 2 has 1.2 s until he can take action
Character 3 has 1.6 s until he can take action
Character 4 has 2 s. until he can take action
Character 5 has .5 s until he can take action
Character 6 has 1 s. until he can take action
Enemy 1 has .6 s until he can take action
Enemy 2 has .8 s until he can take action
Enemy 3 has 2.3 s until he can take action

Your priest is Character 5. Your fighter is Character 1 and is near death after being hit by Enemy 2. You have no way to see either of these times, so you can't really tell if it's better to use your priest to cast healing on Character 1, or a hitting spell on Enemy 2. The indicators, while you are paused, do not give you any hint as to how long it will take for the recovery times to pass. You just see the lines, you don't know how fast either one of them is decreasing in length (one of the many glaring mistakes in the UI, but don't get me started on that).

In addition, if you are going to cast a damaging spell on Enemy 2, you have to take into account your chances of hitting him, because spells are based on Accuracy, but what if you are under the effects of a debuff, that lowers your accuracy? Should you: 1) Cast healing spell now, disregarding accuracy; 2) Cast damaging spell now, disregarding the debuff, or 3) wait for the debuff to pass and then cast the damaging spell?

This example uses just three characters and it's a pretty standard situation. So, who's volunteering to make all those calculations, in every battle? I thought so.

I just had an epiphany. Maybe Josh doesn't want us to do calculations. Maybe he wants everyone to play PoE by intuition. That would explain the needless overcomplication of the afflictions too.

If I am indeed correct about this, well, it sucks.

 

[J_C]

[

I just had an epiphany. Maybe Josh doesn't want us to do calculations. Maybe he wants everyone to play PoE by intuition.

You might be correct, and maybe this is why I can enjoy these game so much more than others. Seriously. I play these kind of games - as you say - by intuition, not by doing calculations. For this reason, I am never as good in them as others, I don't bother with making ubergood builds by calculating every single stat. I just play as the game flows, making second by second decisions. Not the most efficient way to play, but probably less stressing.

 

[Infinitron]

Rounds, afflictions, everybody has his own idiosyncrasy.

Hey Roguey http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85589-update-106-new-obsidian-game-announced/?p=1793202

 

[Roguey]

How the heck does Brandon have -9996 posts on a forum?

 

[Infinitron]

They gave DU admin privileges on the Obsidian forums?

 

[Trashos]

I just had an epiphany. Maybe Josh doesn't want us to do calculations. Maybe he wants everyone to play PoE by intuition.

You might be correct, and maybe this is why I can enjoy these game so much more than others. Seriously. I play these kind of games - as you say - by intuition, not by doing calculations. For this reason, I am never as good in them as others, I don't bother with making ubergood builds by calculating every single stat. I just play as the game flows, making second by second decisions. Not the most efficient way to play, but probably less stressing.

I agree that intuition-types should be catered for as well. But I think that other RTwP games struck a decent balance both for intuition-types and calculation-types. It doesn't make much sense to me to block the calculation-types out of a game full of numbers.

 

[Neanderthal]

How the heck does Brandon have -9996 posts on a forum?

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85341-test/

 

[Trashos]

Rounds, afflictions, everybody has his own idiosyncrasy.

It is the same problem really: Calculations are not manageable for the mathematically-inclined. (they are doable, but too much work for anyone to have fun with it)

 

[Iri]

yo! has anyone done a breakdown of the "new stronghold mechanics"?
im not a poe hater but i really dunno if i can stomach another 40 hours of this if alls they did was like add a multiple choice xp reward for a dancing drunkard buried 3 load screens away in the courtyard or something.

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

Did you go to the shrine in the north east part of the woods? There's a vision you get there that you may need to see first.

Yepp, I was there and had the vision.

Are you scouting + have a party member with decent mechanics (around 8 in the unscaled version has worked for me)? That's the only thing I can think of. Both times I've done it have been shrine vision > Cave vision (back away) > abandoned camp > HIDDEN OBJECT FOUND (Purple area appears for me to click on).

Otherwise, give it up as bugged I suppose.

Umm, that indeed solved the problem...
Thanks.

 

[Nihiliste]

For all its flaws, if PoE were an IE game it would probably be the 3rd best, especially if we're not considering mods.

I'd put PS:T and BG2 in one tier, PoE and BG1 in the next tier, IWD after that, and IWD2 far behind.

 

[Trashos]

For all its flaws, if PoE were an IE game it would probably be the 3rd best, especially if we're not considering mods.

I'd put PS:T and BG2 in one tier, PoE and BG1 in the next tier, IWD after that, and IWD2 far behind.

Agreed, I 'd place PoE as a clear 3rd. I 'd do the same even if we included Dragon Age games.
It is still surprising and depressing that nothing has come close to BG2's brilliance in 16 years. (for PST it is not so surprising)

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

Tbh I never felt like BG2 was that great of a masterpiece. Okay, in theory totally. It had everything I want.
But the feel just never fully got me (I quite enjoyed playing it though).
Therefore:

1.: Planescape: Torment
2.: Dragon Age: Origins
3.: Pillars of Eternity
4.: Baldur's Gate II

 

[Parabalus]

yo! has anyone done a breakdown of the "new stronghold mechanics"?
im not a poe hater but i really dunno if i can stomach another 40 hours of this if alls they did was like add a multiple choice xp reward for a dancing drunkard buried 3 load screens away in the courtyard or something.

There is a questline where you defend your precious stronghold against a hostile takeover by pretentious nobles which leads to a cool battle.

There are also a ton of new companion tasks which give unique powerful items.

It's one of the better (the best?) RPG strongholds now, but that still isn't really high praise since they were always quite lackluster.

I agree that intuition-types should be catered for as well. But I think that other RTwP games struck a decent balance both for intuition-types and calculation-types. It doesn't make much sense to me to block the calculation-types out of a game full of numbers.

I'm genuinely curious what calculations you mean in other RTwP games - I'm pretty math inclined myself but I hardly remember doing any in these specific games.

Every decision I'd make would be based on relative (compared to each other) enemy stats, even calculating the percentages PoE gives on mouseover seems superfluous, since you basically clump them into horrible-ok-terrific and decide to triage from there.
There is also hardly any mutually exclusive optimization since basically everything stacks with each other.
Calculating DPS from proc weapons is the only thing I can think of, but then PoE has more complicated weapon effects so that point is moot.

 

[Trashos]

I'm genuinely curious what calculations you mean in other RTwP games - I'm pretty math inclined myself but I hardly remember doing any in these specific games.

Every decision I'd make would be based on relative (compared to each other) enemy stats, even calculating the percentages PoE gives on mouseover seems superfluous, since you basically clump them into horrible-ok-terrific and decide to triage from there.
There is also hardly any mutually exclusive optimization since basically everything stacks with each other.
Calculating DPS from proc weapons is the only thing I can think of, but then PoE has more complicated weapon effects so that point is moot.

As an example, I 'd devise a branching tactic for an upcoming challenging battle (say, a dragon in BG2) and I would calculate roughly the chance that a series of moves would succeed, taking into account the opponent's moves as well. Then I 'd compare results with another tactic etc.

I don't take anybody's physical movement into account in my calculations.

Another example would be a fight that is going wrong. I would pause and calculate success probabilities for different tactics (eg, offensive vs defensive spell branches).

I don't do such calculations in every round or in every fight, only when things get serious. In the case of BG2, this involves heavy meta-gaming, as some parameters are not available in-game.

I am not sure what you mean when you say "there is no mutually exclusive optimization". Of course there is, you either do move A or move B, so there are opportunity costs to be calculated.

 

[Infinitron]

Looks like Josh designed the stronghold quests:

 

[AN4RCHID]

Funny... considering I just grinded those quests for the XP

 

[AwesomeButton]

For me it was pretty obvious it was him adding stuff to the stronghold. He dropped some remarks in his twitter while he was apparently working on completing the stronghold. And there was an obvious difference in style and quality. Also, the adventures descriptions all look a lot better than the average PoE quest premise. I was thinking that actually the stronghold companion adventures sound much more like quests I would have expected to see in the game, judging by the way they are described. The main stronghold quest on the other hand has little to do with fantasy, which I figured was Josh's style. And I liked its story and writing too.

My impression is that Josh knows what he is doing, but was too pressed by time and other concerns to be able to train all his team so that they know what they're supposed to deliver as an IE game experience. He was out of time and budget and had to work with what he had.

As for the writing, I think we are talking about lack of talent in some places, and lack of experience with the medium in others. I read the PoE novels, and I think they make it easy to make a distinction between good and less good writers, since the "everyone worked on everything" umbrella can't cover them here. I watched the interview with Patrick Rothfus by Avron Elron et co. posted on the TTON thread, and what can I tell you, you either have the predisposition for being a writer, like that guy has it, or you don't and then there's no amount of training that will get you there and you'll be just another hack trying to convince himself. My opinion at least.

 

[Metal Hurlant]

Out of curiosity, I decided to create a timeline (according to Steam Achievements) on when I played PoE and how long it took for me to trudge through to the end. I seem to recall it taking a long time for me due to stopping and doing something else and not enthusiastic with going back to play it. Not sure why I logged in nearly a week later after finishing it. Must have double clicked the wrong game in the Steam client because I know I didn't play it after I finished it.

Spoiler

 

[Seaking4]

You make food, potions, and scrolls before applying enchantments? I've played through twice and I've never made any of those things.

 

[Metal Hurlant]

I was playing around with the crafting mechanic at the time but never actually used any of them (eg. never used the food, potions or scrolls that I crafted). Same with the enchantments. I enchanted some clothes but didn't wear them as I finished the game with mostly nude party members. Only had one character in clothes (Armour) which was Eder tanking. This was to prove to the Obsidtards on the Obsidian forums that you could play and finish the game with nude characters. I finished the game on Hard. Also confirmed felipepe's statement that the estoc you get near the start of the game can be better than the one in the Endless paths.