Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lacrymas]

They did keep all of their promises for P1, even the stupid ones, so I'm not sure if this pessimism is warranted.

Maybe, but this isn't a promise from Fig, it's just something they are experimenting with. It's also worth mentioning that every. single. promise. (ok, most of them) was undercooked at best, because of there being so many of them, so using P1 to gauge this isn't very wise.

 

[Sentinel]

I feel like you still haven't bothered to read the transcript where they explicitly said that was one of their goals and something they were considering in every area design.

I know what they said, that doesn't mean they'll be able to do it or won't be the first thing on the chopping block when the time comes to cut features.

I mean... sure... we can just assume everything they're telling us is smoke and mirrors and that they won't be able to achieve any of their objectives, whether through malice or incompetence, but I'm not sure what that accomplishes, exactly. They're actually showing the rough implementation of the system now, a year before release. While anything can of course happen (swarms of locusts! earthquakes! trump!) it seems unlikely they'd want to have spent the time implementing the system only to turn around and not take advantage of it in the game.

It accomplishes reduced butthurt once the game releases and you realize you weren't a fucking retard who was gullible enough to believe every promise the dev made.

 

[Mastermind]

This kinda reminds me of how before the first game was released some morans were going "What do you mean all classes can use stealth?? I'LL JUST GIVE MY ENTIRE PARTY STEALTH AND SKIP ALL BATTLES, LOL SAWYER YOU HACK".

Only, it's like the opposite of that.

Yes, it's the opposite in that a point or two are more than enough to skip anything that is skippable via stealth, and the only purpose of high stealth is for it to last long enough to get sneak attacks in combat and to steal stuff from right next to a potential witness.

Other than that, if I want to sneak past a group I have no issue doing it even with no stealth, and if the group is blocking the way outright, no amount of stealth changes the fact that stealth drops rapidly the closer you are to somebody and even high stealth won't let you through.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I watched the stream just now and I'm very encouraged by the "more simulationist" approach to stealth and traps (and pickpocketing). In addition to the Commandos games-style of stealth, Josh said they will be aiming for traps to be visually detectable by the player even without the characters having the ability to detect them through their perception score.

 

[Seari]

Oh, I see what happened. Was wondering why noone posted it.

 

[Chris Avelltwo]

Bah, stealth is for cowards. People should just grow a pair and charge at their enemies with a loud roar head-on and engage them in honorable manly combat; instead of pussy-footing around in the bushes. But I suppose it is good that a great stealth system is being devised for the less reputable players... because, after all, not everyone has the level of testosterone it takes to be an alpha-male.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

I watched the stream just now and I'm very encouraged by the "more simulationist" approach to stealth and traps (and pickpocketing). In addition to the Commandos games-style of stealth, Josh said they will be aiming for traps to be visually detectable by the player even without the characters having the ability to detect them through their perception score.

This is already in Tyranny, the traps aren't easily noticeable, but they don't just sprout out of thin air like in infinity engine games. Detecting them just highlights in red and lets you to disarm them.

They're also adopting the highlight feature on lore expressions in dialogue to decrease the amount of exposition in the game. Incline all around.

 

[Bleed the Man]

I watched the stream just now and I'm very encouraged by the "more simulationist" approach to stealth and traps (and pickpocketing). In addition to the Commandos games-style of stealth, Josh said they will be aiming for traps to be visually detectable by the player even without the characters having the ability to detect them through their perception score.

This is already in Tyranny, the traps aren't easily noticeable, but they don't just sprout out of thin air like in infinity engine games. Detecting them just highlights in red and lets you to disarm them.

The White March expansion also tried to do it, although not at a 100% consistency rate. For example, the ogre matron caves have a room with traps that are signaled by cables. I believe Durlag's Battery also signal its traps with certain shapes on walls and floor.

 

[vortex]

Bah, stealth is for cowards.

It would be nice addition to main ruleset to play Deadfire as isometric stealth sim with solo thief.
Plus the challenge and achievement.

 

[Sentinel]

I watched the stream just now and I'm very encouraged by the "more simulationist" approach to stealth and traps (and pickpocketing). In addition to the Commandos games-style of stealth, Josh said they will be aiming for traps to be visually detectable by the player even without the characters having the ability to detect them through their perception score.

They're also adopting the highlight feature on lore expressions in dialogue to decrease the amount of exposition in the game. Incline all around.

Not really, since it becomes a game of "hey dude, don't remember what this term means because I did a shit job previously at making you care? Here, stop reading what I'm currently telling you and read this wiki entry". It disrupts the flow of conversation.

Why can't companies do normal world building anymore?

 

[Lacrymas]

Because they think exposition = world building and lore = setting.

 

[santino27]

It accomplishes reduced butthurt once the game releases and you realize you weren't a fucking retard who was gullible enough to believe every promise the dev made.

Let's see.
- Developer talks about an area they feel they fell short on in previous implementations.
- Developer explains what they're trying to do to address that shortcoming
- Developer shows early UI/implementation of improved system
- TheSentinel decides that anyone who doesn't shit on the possibility of said improvement actually happening is a gullible fucking retard.

Sounds about right.

 

[Sentinel]

It accomplishes reduced butthurt once the game releases and you realize you weren't a fucking retard who was gullible enough to believe every promise the dev made.

Let's see.
- Developer talks about the area they feel they fell short previously
- Developer explains what they're trying to do to address that shortcoming
- Developer shows early implementation of improved system
- TheSentinel decides that anyone who doesn't shit on the possibility of said improvement actually happening is a gullible fucking retard.

Sounds about right.

I'm not shitting on anyone, so your assessment is wrong. Allow me to correct you.

What should happen:
- Developer talks about the area they feel they fell short previously;
- Developer explains what they're trying to do to address that shortcoming;
- Developer shows early implementation of improved system;
- People acknowledge, maybe give feedback, discuss the system, and go "we'll see if they can pull it off".

What actually happens:
- Developer talks about the area they fell short previously;
- Developer explains what they're trying to do to address that shortcoming;
- Developer shows early implementation of improved system;
- People immediately go into a hype rampage implying that because the developer acknowledged the issue it's now automatically fixed and it's gonna be perfect.

There, free of charge this time.

 

[santino27]

It accomplishes reduced butthurt once the game releases and you realize you weren't a fucking retard who was gullible enough to believe every promise the dev made.

Let's see.
- Developer talks about the area they feel they fell short previously
- Developer explains what they're trying to do to address that shortcoming
- Developer shows early implementation of improved system
- TheSentinel decides that anyone who doesn't shit on the possibility of said improvement actually happening is a gullible fucking retard.

Sounds about right.

I'm not shitting on anyone, so your assessment is wrong. Allow me to correct you.

What should happen:
- Developer talks about the area they feel they fell short previously;
- Developer explains what they're trying to do to address that shortcoming;
- Developer shows early implementation of improved system;
- People acknowledge, maybe give feedback, discuss the system, and go "we'll see if they can pull it off".

What actually happens:
- Developer talks about the area they fell short previously;
- Developer explains what they're trying to do to address that shortcoming;
- Developer shows early implementation of improved system;
- People immediately go into a hype rampage implying that because the developer acknowledged the issue it's now automatically fixed and it's gonna be perfect;

There, free of charge this time.

Explain where the hype rampage is and where anyone said it's gonna be perfect?

Also explain where your super-valuable feedback was, and where your discussion of said system was?

At this point, all we've gotten is Lacrymas deciding they won't live up to their promises, and you calling anyone who doesn't agree with that negative stance a retard.

But hey, whatever gets people through the day. When the beta comes, I'll be happily giving feedback on what they've implemented, and if it seems lacking, I'll definitely call them on it, as I assume most people will.

 

[Quillon]

Stealth system's now automatically fixed and it's gonna be perfect!

 

[Sentinel]

Explain where the hype rampage is and where anyone said it's gonna be perfect?

see previous pages.

Also explain where your super-valuable feedback was, and where your discussion of said system was?

Never claimed my feedback was super valuable, but see previous pages.

You're welcome.

 

[Lacrymas]

At this point, all we've gotten is Lacrymas deciding they won't live up to their promises, and you calling anyone who doesn't agree with that negative stance a retard.

I didn't decide they won't live up to their promises. That's wrong on so many different levels. Not to mention that they haven't promised anything, the new stealth system is just an experiment. The context of my comments was one of skepticism of the usefulness of this type of stealth in this particular game. With that context in mind I said that it's not clear whether they can pull something like this off, i.e. design a considerable portion of the game to cater to such a system. Therefore I assumed that when the time comes to cut features due to time/money/whatever, it will probably be the first thing on the chopping block. That's why hyping yourself over a throwaway experiment by them is pointless, not only hyping yourself, but actively defending them. The straight-jacket of sainthood people thrust upon some developers isn't necessary and it only gives way to butthurt and intellectual dishonesty.

 

[J_C]

Josh said they will be aiming for traps to be visually detectable by the player even without the characters having the ability to detect them through their perception score.

I don't know if I like the sound of that. What is the use of the stealth attributes then?

 

[Chris Avelltwo]

Josh said they will be aiming for traps to be visually detectable by the player even without the characters having the ability to detect them through their perception score.

I don't know if I like the sound of that. What is the use of the stealth attributes then?

Even in POE1, traps are really only a surprise in your first playthrough. After that, you'll remember where they are. Unless they can figure a way to randomize them a bit?

 

[Sannom]

I don't know if I like the sound of that. What is the use of the stealth attributes then?

The stealth attributes highlights them (which triggers the condition for the auto-pause) and once that's done, they can be disabled. Without the attributes, you would only be able to walk your characters around the trap.

 

[AwesomeButton]

- People immediately go into a hype rampage implying that because the developer acknowledged the issue it's now automatically fixed and it's gonna be perfect.

I have been through the stage in my life where I have been reacting to news in the way you are describing. The fact that you are past that period doesn't mean everyone else is in it.

I don't know if I like the sound of that. What is the use of the stealth attributes then?

In PoE Mechanics is the skill for trap finding. In PoE 2 your perception will play a role, probably along with a skill. I don't think we know yet. What is a downside for me is that you will always be considered "looking for traps", no special mode this time around.

And "Stealth" was for staying hidden. It's understandable that you confuse the two, since in PoE "Scouting Mode" (i.e. "Stealth") and "Looking for traps" mode are merged. You can only actively search for traps while stealthed at the same time. It's worth mentioning that being in stealth merely provides a bonus to your searching for traps (coming from the Mechanics skill). In fact you are always looking for traps but in order to actually find a trap without actively looking, the trap has to be a low level (require few points in Mechanics) and your Mechanics skill has to be fairly high. Then you can find traps without even specifically looking.

 

[Quillon]

design a considerable portion of the game to cater to such a system. Therefore I assumed that when the time comes to cut features due to time/money/whatever, it will probably be the first thing on the chopping block.

They are prolly improving the stealth system to go along with the content they've been creating. It's not like they'd need to create whole lotta different stuff for stealth system alone. They already had stealth, maybe they needed a better system.

1 x Fabulously Optimistic

 

[AwesomeButton]

design a considerable portion of the game to cater to such a system. Therefore I assumed that when the time comes to cut features due to time/money/whatever, it will probably be the first thing on the chopping block.

They are prolly improving the stealth system to go along with the content they've been creating. It's not like they'd need to create whole lotta different stuff for stealth system alone. They already had stealth, maybe they needed a better system.

1 x Fabulously Optimistic

Josh has said in the stream, for those here who don't approach his words with cynicism and doubt, that the team realizes, and are sorry that, stealth mechanics were rarely utilized by quests and dungeons in PoE, and that they are addressing that for PoE 2's content. He even gave an example - Lindsey Laney favorite approach to a Vailian house.

 

[santino27]

At this point, all we've gotten is Lacrymas deciding they won't live up to their promises, and you calling anyone who doesn't agree with that negative stance a retard.

I didn't decide they won't live up to their promises. That's wrong on so many different levels. Not to mention that they haven't promised anything, the new stealth system is just an experiment. The context of my comments was one of skepticism of the usefulness of this type of stealth in this particular game. With that context in mind I said that it's not clear whether they can pull something like this off, i.e. design a considerable portion of the game to cater to such a system. Therefore I assumed that when the time comes to cut features due to time/money/whatever, it will probably be the first thing on the chopping block. That's why hyping yourself over a throwaway experiment by them is pointless, not only hyping yourself, but actively defending them. The straight-jacket of sainthood people thrust upon some developers isn't necessary and it only gives way to butthurt and intellectual dishonesty.

What it all comes down to is that stealth wasn't great in POE1. Both you and Obsidian have identified that as an area that could stand to be improved. They have provided information on how they are attempting to address it. Obviously, all development is fluid and things could change between now and next year. (And it's not a stretch goal so even if they do ditch it, they at least won't be pulling a Torment.)

But just as you object to my categorization of your comments as saying they won't live up to their promises, I think there's more than a little hyperbole in you saying that anyone who isn't being pessimistic about their efforts is 'thrusting a straight-jacket of sainthood' on the developers.

Again, we obviously won't see what they've implemented or how well until beta. Once we do, I'll happily rejoin any debates on whether it's been well (and broadly) implemented or not. Until then, all we have is what they've told us they are trying to do, and what they've shown us as their pre-alpha pass on implementing that vision.

 

[Sentinel]

design a considerable portion of the game to cater to such a system. Therefore I assumed that when the time comes to cut features due to time/money/whatever, it will probably be the first thing on the chopping block.

They are prolly improving the stealth system to go along with the content they've been creating. It's not like they'd need to create whole lotta different stuff for stealth system alone. They already had stealth, maybe they needed a better system.

1 x Fabulously Optimistic

Josh has said in the stream, for those here who don't approach his words with cynicism and doubt, that the team realizes, and are sorry that, stealth mechanics were rarely utilized by quests and dungeons in PoE, and that they are addressing that for PoE 2's content. He even gave an example - Lindsey Laney favorite approach to a Vailian house.

Wasn't his example that you could enter some house through the toilet or something? A similar thing was in PoE1 as well.