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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
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The PrC requirements are there for balance reasons imo. I tried to make an Undead Shape Shifter/Druid/Weapon Master (scythe) in NWN, but, while possible, it was really feat starved and almost unplayable before 21st level. If it wasn't, however, there would be no reason not to go that combination if going scythe WM. They could've easily just put a character level requirement on PrCs and not "restrict your creativity", but they did and I very much doubt it was an arbitrary decision.

It's amazing how much your build can be impacted by requiring 6 skillpoints. When your base class is a fighter and the skill you need isn't a class skill.
Most class or prc requirements are very cleverly designed to hone in your power builds, because you need X feat or Y alignment that doesn't work with another prc or class you want to take.
When you get into Domain choices for Dieties that also have alignment restrictions..

It's like putting together a puzzle with the most optimal feats and stats possible. That's like the entire appeal of 3.5E - making builds.
 

Mazisky

Magister
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
2,082
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Rome, IT
I've just read a hands on from GDC , a bit of new content with Raedric's hold vibes:

They had to kill a dude into a keep set on a island of pirates, with 3 ways of approach:

-Kill them all

-Show pirate flag and infiltrate like pirates and kill him while pirate party is going

-Go full stealth

Wait can you expand on this, where did this info come from?

Are you there at GDC and in one of the presentations they used a PoE 2 quest as an example?


I've just read this fresh hands on, but it's in italian. Btw nothing new other than the quest i did write about.

That quest was on GDC demo they prepared

https://multiplayer.it/articoli/196...le-mille-scelte-di-pillars-of-eternity-2.html
 
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IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,188
Nobody is saying PoE's attribute system is a holy grail - we already have a holy grail, and it's called SPECIAL.

But PoE does a good job in providing a compelling system that is actually interesting to use even for advanced players. You can't help but laugh at all the early hysterics that "no dump stats" is consolization and dumbing down our sacred genre for the mass audience. It looks hilarious now because the opposite has happened and it resulted in more complex game.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
Depends on what you mean by "complex game". It's more bloated and meandering than the IE games, especially in the tactical aspects, and if that's your criteria, sure.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,188
I mean a more complex game in terms of attribute system, since that is what we are discussing. I can make you a drawing if you're struggling to keep up with the conversation.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
It certainly doesn't read like that, it reads more like ass-licking, shilling and trying to pass off the attributes as affecting the entire game, but maybe that's what I read in all your posts. Because it's you.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,081
No matter what we say,IE games do have better combat and are more challenging. Don't remember a single impressive encounter in PoE,that was fun to fight and figure it out.
Adra Dragon was fun to figure out to focus on those priests first and then on the Dragon. It was a pushover after that.

Undead Raedic was also kind of memorable but more because even with protection vs domination, their grazes would still fuck you over and create chaos in that battle. It was more memorable because characters kept becoming hostile and then stop being hostile and you could do little about it but watch and laugh how stupid it all was.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
Why would the cosmetic pets give mechanical bonuses? I know Concelhaut's skull gave you some, but it was unique, cool and you could sacrifice it for passive bonuses. Inb4 they start churning out DLCs with cosmetic pets that give more/better bonuses than any other pet in the game because it's Paradox.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
Oh, right, it's those Versus Evil guys. My bad. Who knows, though, they might take some ...business advice from Paradox.
 

Immortal

Arcane
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I generally don't use any DLC / Pre-Order bonus stuff.. It ruins whatever balance they were trying to go for just to appease the marketing team.

It only becomes mandatory if you're trying to speed run / online compete in a game.
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
This post is really surprising to me because I know your an avid pnp player.. and I couldn't disagree more.

Do you avoid power builds or something? Or just don't play 3.5E that much?

tl;dr: IMO the tightly-specced prestige classes are even worse for tabletop gaming than cRPGs. Tabletop gaming is even more about player creativity, and having to build to a tight template feels really suffocating.

Longer answer:

My two longest-running campaigns were AD&D and D&D3, respectively. Neither of these was all that combat-heavy; the focus was on exploration, discovery, and role-playing, although we did have a fight about every other session or so. We got to around level 15-18 on both of these; the campaigns ran for several years real time. In these campaigns, there was only one player who was really at all interested in character-building; everybody else was more or less just rolling with it. We had a lot of fun working a fair bunch of modules and settings into the larger framework of each campaign. The rules were more for flavour and to give a bit of structure and a sense of mechanical progression, and D&D worked fine for that purpose.

Then I ran a shorter campaign with a slightly different group; here I had three players who were NWN veterans and genuinely into powerbuilding. We also had a ton of supplements on the table, so there really was a wide range of PrCs to choose from. I think one of these three got a kick out of it; he planned out his entire character development from the start so he could hit his desired PrC as early as possible, and then, well, coloured meticulously inside the lines. But then I think he wasn't entirely neurotypical, so he got a kick out of that thing. The other two had much less fun as the concepts they actually wanted to play weren't really quite like the PrCs they were after, so we ended up doing a lot of negotiation to tune them to spec, and ended up houseruling a fair bit, which then made the third guy who did follow the rules to the letter a little upset.

I as the DM didn't enjoy it nearly as much; a lot more energy was spent negotiating rules and exceptions to the rules and just focusing on the rules and making sure the right feats and skills were picked on leveling up and such, and much less in-game. Overall I and most of the group felt that the system didn't really work all that well; the PrCs were sort of cool but they were somebody else's cool, and there really wasn't much room for player or even DM creativity there.

Fiiiinally, in my view the whole notion of power building is kind of irrelevant in a PnP game anyway. With a human DM on the other side of the table, raw party power is kind of irrelevant; there are always creative ways to approach challenges (or run away from them, or recover from nearly total party wipes), and managing the challenge level so that things stay interesting is the DM's job, and a reasonably good human DM will always be able to do that better than an algorithm. From the DM's PoV it doesn't matter if the party are powerbuilding veterans who know the rules, use them to their advantage, and prep carefully, or role-playing geeks who are in it for the story and the adventure and the excitement -- or level 1, 10, or 20. In all cases his job is to toss fun challenges at them, riff off them when they respond to them, and do his best that everybody's having fun. Only the specifics of each challenge matter.

Summa summarum, no I don't like PrCs for PnP either, worse in fact than cRPGs, as PnP gaming really puts player and DM creativity front and centre, whereas tightly-specced PrCs take that creativity away from them and put it in the hands of the people who want to sell you another Complete Book of Elves.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Pathfinder: Wrath
You aren't forced to take PrCs, though, and that's why your argument doesn't hold water. You CAN use the PrCs and strictly navigate to them, or you can skip them and make your own class like Druid/Rogue/Monk/Sorcerer if you want. They can't just give you free reign to pick whatever PrC you want whenever because of balance issues, the entire structure will fall apart and the different lore flavors will be gone. You'll always have players who will meticulously negotiate rules and powergame to the extreme, that's hardly the PrC's fault.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
You aren't forced to take PrCs, though, and that's why your argument doesn't hold water.

Lacrymas dearest, the question was specifically about PrCs and how well they work or don't in PnP games. Kissy-kissy!

Also, the rest of your post was kind of funny given that I just specifically pointed out that powergaming itself is no kind of problem in PnP. You're slipping, you used to actually think about the stuff you replied to, rather than just saying the first thing that popped into your mind.

Also also, that wasn't an argument -- I was relating my actual lived experience running D&D campaigns. I'm sure the system works great for somebody but it didn't work for us, I don't like it, and that's an explanation why.

Jesus fuck some of you people are tedious to talk to.

I do find that D&D3 works better without PrCs. There is a fair bit of room for player creativity when combining feats and classes.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Fundamentally we have reached the "I like x because I do" stage of disagreement. I can't argue your feels. I just disagree about what's fun in 3.5E I guess.

Pretty much. PnP gaming is all about fun, different people have different ideas of what is fun, and different systems, settings, rulesets etc. support those different ideas to a greater or lesser extent.

AD&D is a gigantic mess mechanically but we did have a ton of fun playing it.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,031
Pathfinder: Wrath
Wow, just like I've "stopped reading and thinking", you keep getting more condescending without thinking as time passes. I'm just pointing out that whatever it is you are saying can be easily circumvented and it's your choice whether to impact your game or not. It's not the PrCs' fault. It's you.
 

Immortal

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Fundamentally we have reached the "I like x because I do" stage of disagreement. I can't argue your feels. I just disagree about what's fun in 3.5E I guess.

Pretty much. PnP gaming is all about fun, different people have different ideas of what is fun, and different systems, settings, rulesets etc. support those different ideas to a greater or lesser extent.

AD&D is a gigantic mess mechanically but we did have a ton of fun playing it.

Agreed - but if this is your argument, you need to recognize that it's not "empirically" a bad or good system based on that.

Lots of pnp games / sessions are centered around very creative and interesting builds.. and that's largely how the NWN2 PW scene works too. This is half the fun for a lot of people - min maxing between the lines of several different class features & requirements at play at one time.

Getting back to my original point - I don't find PoE1 to be very complex in comparison. I was hoping for more layers in PoE2. ( We got some with multiclassing but it's starting to look very watered down)
For a game that has emphasis on class & party composition and character building.. that's really the bread and butter.. how deep is your system for me to dig into.

PoE 1 ended up being.. pretty.. basic. You mentioned all these amazing builds you did with a party of hoplite spear swingers.. but that still feels shallow to me. We know what the optimized stats and weapons are.. Sure you could make a party of dagger throwing grannies.. but that's not what I mean when I talk about depth.


Nobody is saying PoE's attribute system is a holy grail - we already have a holy grail, and it's called SPECIAL.

But PoE does a good job in providing a compelling system that is actually interesting to use even for advanced players. You can't help but laugh at all the early hysterics that "no dump stats" is consolization and dumbing down our sacred genre for the mass audience. It looks hilarious now because the opposite has happened and it resulted in more complex game.

I missed this post.. Resolve is the new CHA.. So dunno where all this "complexity" comes from.

Honestly, almost every class you make in PoE1 is a Dump Resolve and Pump Perception, especially on POTD. The rest depends on what your going for, but is usually pretty obvious to figure out.

Things were more complex when Sawyer was changing shit every patch. lol.
 
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Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,031
Pathfinder: Wrath
PoE 1 ended up being.. pretty.. basic. You mentioned all these amazing builds you did with a party of hoplite spear swingers.. but that still feels shallow to me. We know what the optimized stats and weapons are.. Sure you could make a party of dagger throwing grannies.. but that's not what I mean when I talk about depth.

It ended up being basic because a lot of the builds play like each other, not because of the build variety. I commend PoE's system for making many builds viable, but it made them so by all of them being samey. Cutting down on spammy abilities in PoE2 by introducing power pools was the right decision, even if it's very mana-like.
 

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