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Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

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They also randomize major items.

There are a few locations in the beta with IWD1 style loot - you get a random magical item from a table. Amulet of Protection, Gauntlets of Ogre Might, etc etc. Same scum the container until you get the one you want. It's pretty dumb.

That's...disappointing. I doubt it can be as bad as IWD1, because the reason that attempt at randomization was such a failure was mostly due to strong conflict with the base systems (e.g. the way 2nd Edition's strict class/proficiency systems are really awkward with randomly skewed magical weapon distribution. Ditto with regards to +X weapon payouts in a game where boss challenge was often defined by immunity to less than +Y weapons. Hello Yxunomei!), but it still sounds plain silly to have such variation in payout, especially over time.

Not really. It's also because the Icewind Dale economy is more tightly balanced (for obvious development reasons).

The linearity is pretty much the reason why IWD1/2 seem to have "balanced" economies.

What "breaks" most D&D cRPG economies, IE games included, is the ability to sell off magical item surplus to any vendor for full sale value. You don't get rich off of quests or gold/platinum/steel/ceramic piece hoards, but from pawning off any sort of swords/rings/armors +1 that aren't needed by anyone in the party.

The Baldur's Gate games are relatively easy for experienced players to metagame for quick wealth due to their openness. Routes that pick up all of the major caches in BG1 Chapters One and Two or BG2 Chapters Two and Three can be done with some speed, giving the player a sizable wealth base with which to purchase almost everything they need before taking on the main story content.

But Icewind Dale games, they're linear. Content is strictly gated by progression in the current dungeon. Each chapter only has a set amount of possible items to find. This means that acquiring a critical mass of surplus magical accouterments isn't going to be possible in the early chapters of the game. But that doesn't mean the economy is balanced in any way, shape, or form. Was anyone sweating Dirty Lew's or Nym's prices in the endgame?

However in hindsight one of the few major improvements to Baldur's Gate 2 would have been inventive money sinks and higher vendor prices. BG2 could have easily sustained a doubling on all vendor prices, and even main quest beeliners would have been able to afford 90% of what they wanted.

Doubling base prices would be pretty excessive. The best possible modification would be one that greatly reduced the sell prices for "generic" magical loot, making it so "simple" +1 weapons no longer command prices of 500+ gold each. That throttles the easiest source of income and makes players have to sell "unique" items to gain their riches.

It's hilarious how many of the anti-randomized loot table-folk are the self-proclaimed grognards. I can't think of anything more decidedly true to oldschool D&D than randomized loot tables. Also funny how many call it Diablo-like, when indeed Diablo was very late to the party indeed concerning those mechanics.

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine, but I really don't like the way in which randomized loot drops have become a core mechanic in (mainstream) RPGs, both Western and Eastern. At least in my observations and readings, random loot tables in (A)D&D were mostly designed to aid DMs whose parties had gone off the beaten path, had wandered into encounters or lairs the DM hadn't planned for. Instead of having to quickly come up with treasure that would be found in a hobgoblin camp the party raided after tacing the steps of a random ambush, the DM can thumb through some pages, roll a few dice, and produce loot for the player characters.

I don't think this mechanic translates well to cRPGs with handmade content; thoughtful loot placement is generally understood as part of area/dungeon/adventure design, and one of the things we as players expect designers to exert some effort in. Obviously, it would be a lot less obtrusive in a procedurally generated cRPG, but that certainly doesn't describe the IE games nor Pillars of Eternity. They're handmaking areas...why not spend a little extra time and handplace loot for more interesting finds and for better balance?
 

aeonsim

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Well at least the seed system JS says they've implemented will kill the desire to save scum.

Also when Sensuki says major items he's still talking about non-unique items which are by the sounds of it are available from multiple different locations (and possibly purchasable as well).
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Yeah it's pretty much - cbf fixing the loot tables properly so we'll just take the easy way out. At least they're doing some fixing of them though.
 

Grunker

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LF_Incline said:
Would BG1 been any better if we didn't follow our usual route to get the key items

Nope, like I said, Item Randomiser is awesome precisely because it generates at mod install or new game start.

Roguey said:
wouldn't have come up with all those stretch goals if he was given complete freedom.

What you are saying here is: "When in doubt, I give the benefit to Sawyer." That's what one might call your bias. It's OK Roguey. You're like every other human being.
 

Roguey

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I have nothing against fun, but why does an rpg have to be visceral. Some of my best friends favorite games are the opposite of visceral. If I was making a party based tactical RPG, visceral wouldn't be the near the top of the list of adjectives I'd think of.
In that paragraph he was speaking in the context of rpgs with action-oriented conflict resolution, e.g. Jade Empire, Mass Effect, and Oblivion and elaborated a bit later.

BioWare and Bethesda both try to "do" visceral gameplay in their RPGs. To date, Obsidian has stuck to inherited Bio titles like the Neverwinter series (pure Poindexter gameplay for both their original title and our sequel) and KotOR (still pretty Poindexter, low-input combat that is a step up in moment-to-moment excitement from the BG/IWD/NWN type games). Of course, pretty much everything I worked on at Black Isle was also super Poindexter.

I really do appreciate that BioWare tried to step it up with Jade Empire. The focus was much heavier on the core action than on fiddly number (i.e. Poindexter) stuff. I feel that it fell short of what it could have been in the action department, mostly due to collision, timing, and framerate issues. I know a lot of folks found it refreshing, but... well, I play some pretty fast-paced action games and have developed high standards when it comes to that kind of gameplay.

The early videos I saw of Mass Effect's combat looked slow -- not when firing was going on, but in all the moments lost to shoving pawns around the battlefield and messing with the radial menu. I am optimistic about the combat now that I have seen more recent videos of how it flows and I am hopeful that the balance between core shootin' (which includes everything from acquiring targets to firing at them to moving from cover to cover) and "management" (which includes inventory, squad actions, etc.) allows for the management to be meaningful without disrupting the feeling of the shootin'. Apologies to Bio and Bio-fans for the comment about various ME things "look[ing] dumb". It's less than helpful/"professional" to post a comment like that in a casual blog entry. I mistakenly thought no one really cared what I wrote anywhere anymore. Whoops.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that I can have fun with super Poindexter games and super visceral action games, but few games have managed to successfully merge diverse "RPG elements" with good core gameplay. I don't feel like (m)any of the games I've made have particularly satisfying core gameplay and it's a shame that RPGs often wind up being kitchen sink games with a hundred elements that all feel bland, remote, and unsatisfying from moment to moment.
...
Poindexter games can be satisfying on an intellectual level. ToEE was a very satisfying game. BG2 also had some very challenging combats that were intellectually satisfying to overcome. But they aren't viscerally satisfying -- at least not for me. I get a certain excitement out of rolling in tabletop (last night my cleric got 12 on 2d6 for a very important turn attempt) because of the risk and the fact that I'm actually rolling physical dice. I don't get that in CRPGs where I'm sitting back and watching my dudes standing in place, cycling through attack animations over and over. I don't even get that in Front Mission 4, where every attack is "cinematically" framed and presented as a mini-cutscene. It can take half an hour to outfit your guys for one fight and then another 45 minutes to resolve that fight in Front Mission 4. Before each character's turn, you can spend up to a minute looking around at various options (mostly due to attack and defense links in the late game) before you select and resolve the action. That can be very fun, but it's not viscerally satisfying.

The games I have the biggest problems with are the ones that have quasi-action that falls short in various ways. I think Bethesda did a pretty good job with some of the action elements in Oblivion (stealth, for example), with my eternal exception to first-person melee, which I think had significant problems even in Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

And it was an unfortunate decision. IWD and IWD2 aren't bad games per se but compared to BG and BG2 they are but pale likenesses.
I'm pretty unimpressed by BG so far, though I'm still in chapter one.
 

Grunker

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LF_Incline: about your "but this thread is for BG loyalists" - I'll gladly make the statement that if BG had had randomized loot tables and PoE implemented unique loot, then the "loyalists" would be harping on about the virtues of randomized loot tables and how it's more true to D&D. I am by no means all-in positive about PoE as 75% of my posts on the subject is a testament to, yet my criticism pales pretty fast compared to a few other posters. Those were the ones I was taking a stab at.
 

prodigydancer

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I'm pretty unimpressed by BG so far, though I'm still in chapter one.
Yeah. Linear hack-n-slash dungeon crawl (and I mean completely linear, totally on rails all the way) is so much better. Does this sound like I'm badmouthing IWD? Well, I don't. IWD was good for what it was (even better by today's standards after all the years of decline). But comparing it to BG is like comparing shards of broken glass to diamonds.
 

jagged-jimmy

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I'm pretty unimpressed by BG so far, though I'm still in chapter one.
Yeah. Linear hack-n-slash dungeon crawl (and I mean completely linear, totally on rails all the way) is so much better. Does this sound like I'm badmouthing IWD? Well, I don't. IWD was good for what it was (even better by today's standards after all the years of decline). But comparing it to BG is like comparing shards of broken glass to diamonds.
BG II - you're totally right. But first? What was so special about it? It was shitty and semi linear until the big city, where you had a couple of quests. Does not beat the IWD for me, which provided more fun and beauty.
 

Jezal_k23

Guest
I remember BG taking a while to click for me too, when I first played it, for whatever reason. When it happened, though, then I just couldn't stop.
 

Roguey

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Yeah. Linear hack-n-slash dungeon crawl (and I mean completely linear, totally on rails all the way) is so much better.

Whether something is linear or not really doesn't make a difference to me.

I'm pretty unimpressed by BG so far, though I'm still in chapter one.

Posted 3/3/2015 at 7:23 AM
I skipped BG because the impressions I read about it made it sound like something I wouldn't enjoy. So far, that's proven correct.
 

ushas

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it's more important to know the total value of loot in each area, thus the need to test it by creating a clean dungeon (kill every one) count the value of their total gear (on PoD there are something like 30 guards in that area so 30x Weapon/Armour sets etc) and make a save. Then go through and empty all the containers and work out the total value and range of container items from the entire dungeon then repeat this 10 times and see what the variation is and how it compares to the total value of the guards drops. If the total cp value of a area can vary by greater than 2-3x then that is an issue as it actually changes the difficulty of the game (say 5,000 vs 20,000) in a random manner however a change of say 1-2,000cp isn't much if the average is 20,000cp for the area.

And we know that 5,000 vs 20,000 money variance changes difficulty because... But anyway, in the approximation you can see a dungeon as a big container with some of the slots randomly estimated. So even if one does have really luck to bump into either money variation, what you consider important, or the useful items variation, other people are concerned about, one can simply use your own words for one chest:
double aeonsim said:
I don't really see what the fuss is about a single dungeon. And I don't think enough is yet known about how the random tables work to decide if this is a major problem. Depending on how the loot tables work individual dungeon could vary but the over all value of all the dungeons in a game could average out to a similar amount."

Well, so probably Josh's words calmed you down...

I wonder about Skaen in different difficulties. There is clear difference in amount of income from enemies. On easy we are selling gear from ~30 Skaenites -> ~8000cp? and on hard the number is twice as much, so something like ~60 enemies -> ~16000cp. Adding the containers loot ~8000 cp (assuming you sell it), the difference between easy and hard run may be in 1/3 of total income in this area.

But this is yet a very crude guess. I don't know how the easy difficulty should work in the end and how many armored foes in total we are about to encounter in game... Probably not problem, but at least it's something we can actually measure on that dungeon, compare to statistically inconclusive tests with random loot.
 

Zep Zepo

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I might be wrong (or it was another game)..but didn't BG have some kind of save-scum bullshit code that made things harder if you save-reloaded too many times at the same area?

Zep--
 

Zep Zepo

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I might be wrong (or it was another game)..but didn't BG have some kind of save-scum bullshit code that made things harder if you save-reloaded too many times at the same area?

Zep--

Nah, that wasn't Baldur's Gate.

You sure..I just looked about on old internet posts and it said something about "level drain" if you quick save/die/reload in same area?

Edit: I'm talking original, un-patched CD version here.

Zep--
 

dukeofwhales

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I'm not 100% sure but I've never heard of anything like it. All I can find is this which sounds like it's probably a bug with respawning monsters, rather than a deliberate punishment (maybe the poster is thinking of an old BG1Tutu version which would spawn far too many monsters and is attributing it to saving and reloading).
 

Zep Zepo

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I'm not 100% sure but I've never heard of anything like it. All I can find is this which sounds like it's probably a bug with respawning monsters, rather than a deliberate punishment (maybe the poster is thinking of an old BG1Tutu version which would spawn far too many monsters and is attributing it to saving and reloading).

Yep..that link you provided is exactly what was happening to me in game.

Zep--
 

ushas

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Grunker, how does Randomizer work in BG? Does it randomly draw content for containers from loot tables? (so for example you have nonzero probability to have playthrough with five Gauntlets of Ogre Power and no bow to find at all...) Or does it simply randomize an item location?
 

prodigydancer

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BG II - you're totally right. But first? What was so special about it? It was shitty and semi linear until the big city, where you had a couple of quests. Does not beat the IWD for me, which provided more fun and beauty.
Beauty? I suppose you're talking about the glacier which was indeed impressive. But BG had lots of beautiful maps and more variety. Forests. Mountains. Deserts. Towns.

I may be partial because BG was my first RPG. But then again I replayed BG recently and had a blast. Now I'm playing IWD and it's exactly as I remember it - a dry, funless stroll in the search of - /yawn - the "great evil" you struggle to care about. Have a piece of the story. Kill some undead. Kill more undead. Kill even more undead. Have another piece of the story.
 

dukeofwhales

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I always found IWD to be the most beautiful of the IE games. I thought both the maps and the UI were nicer looking than the Baldur's Gates, and generally I thought the dungeons were better designed and more interesting too. I agree that the story was not memorable at all, but that's not really what they were shooting for.
 

Grunker

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Grunker, how does Randomizer work in BG? Does it randomly draw content for containers from loot tables? (so for example you have nonzero probability to have playthrough with five Gauntlets of Ogre Power and no bow to find at all...) Or does it simply randomize an item location?

It can work however you want it to :P

The base mode is simply randomising all item locations in the game. You can then set it to randomly delete items as well, if you don't want to be certain to find everything. You can also set a percentile chance to "skip" randomising each item, so some items will be found in their old location (at random). You can't make it add more copies of singular items though, AFAIR.

But the base mode simply distributes all items randomly throughout the game, and equips creatures who receive new items with them (if applicable).
 
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