Pillars Combat Analysis-Review

[Bonerbill]

No, I don't think you do.

Good vs evil is boring, and what you said has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons why I don't like the story/plot. If you are confused, feel free to go back and read again, or just read this thread: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-writing-in-this-game-is-average.98103/

... which pretty much exhausts the topic

I'm not confused about anything nor was I trying to debate anything. I was just stating my opinion on how only a good PC would care about hollowborn crisis, thus it will lead to a typical railroaded biowarian good vs evil plot. I already know why you don't like the plot. As much as I love the story, I don't think I gave a crap about hollowborn.

 

[Sensuki]

You don't have a very open mind if you think that would be the case, aren't you given a choice about what to do with the souls that have been harvested? Why would the lack of retard demi-gods and stuff like that change the ending? Disconnect the outcome from the gods and there you go.

 

[Lhynn]

I dont see how a good guy would worry about the hollowborn thing other than having a bleeding heart for it, itd be the equivalent of every good person setting out on a journey to cure aids, we all know that just dont happen.

 

[Johannes]

I was born hollow inside

 

[Seari]

I dont see how a good guy would worry about the hollowborn thing other than having a bleeding heart for it, itd be the equivalent of every good person setting out on a journey to cure aids, we all know that just dont happen.

They should've made the PC hollowborn, which would make the story more personal, without the chosen one shit. You could've blamed Thaos for your condition or seek a cure for it or whatever.

I really hate that every class has magic due to their souls. Could've just made the classes with actual magic have the ability to use their souls. They could've left fighters, rogues, barbarians, etc. physical classes, without "soul magic". Why even call it magic if everyone has it.

 

[Lhynn]

I dont see how a good guy would worry about the hollowborn thing other than having a bleeding heart for it, itd be the equivalent of every good person setting out on a journey to cure aids, we all know that just dont happen.

They should've made the PC hollowborn, which would make the story more personal, without the chosen one shit. You could've blamed Thaos for your condition or seek a cure for it or whatever.

I dont think you understand how the whole hollowborn deal works...

I really hate that every class has magic due to their souls.

Everyone is a mutant, that way you dont actually have to worry explaining balancing.

 

[Seari]

I dont think you understand how the whole hollowborn deal works...

They could've easily made an explanation for you surviving without a soul.

 

[Lhynn]

I dont think you understand how the whole hollowborn deal works...

They could've easily made an explanation for you surviving without a soul.

So why would you care? you basically solved the only problem a hollowborn has.

 

[Seari]

They could've easily made an explanation for you surviving without a soul.

So why would you care? you basically solved the only problem a hollowborn has.

You're going insane.

Spoiler

While you survived childbirth you're still dying, you want to know why this is happening to you, maybe there's a way to fix it. Cut the whole story regarding gods and save it for the sequel.

 

[Zero Credibility]

So basically MotB 2? Eh, works for me.

 

[J_C]

They could've easily made an explanation for you surviving without a soul.

So why would you care? you basically solved the only problem a hollowborn has.

You're going insane.

Spoiler

While you survived childbirth you're still dying, you want to know why this is happening to you, maybe there's a way to fix it.

I don't think you realize that PoE's story is almost like what you suggested. Your soul has awakened, and you are probably going insane, and you want to know why this is happenning to you, maybe there is a way to fix it (with Thaos). The gods stuff only come in to the picture later.

 

[Seari]

Yes I know, except for you becoming the chosen one super hero. And you going insane might as well not be relevant, since all you get for it are super powers.

edit: I said I wanted the plot to be more personal and without the chosen one shit. The plot with the gods is really unecessary, sometimes simpler is better.

 

[J_C]

Yes I know, except for you becoming the chosen one super hero. And you going insane might as well not be relevant, since all you get for it are super powers..

It would have been quite interesting if they build the going insane mechanic into the game. Like, sometimes in the middle of the battle, you get confuzed, dazed or dominated. And you could surpress this with getting different talents during leveling up.

 

[prodigydancer]

without the chosen one shit.

And how do you see this story without it?

Spoiler

It's never said directly but it's heavily implied:
1) The Inquisitor's soul was guided by the gods - most probably Berath - to inhabit the body of a Watcher.
2) The Watcher's fate was then manipulated (Rymgrand?) in a way that inevitably lead to crossing paths with Thaos at a critical point and ensuing Awakening.

How can you not be a chosen one when you simply are?

 

[Shevek]

I think insanity could be better communicated through more frequent/involved scripted dream interactions (of BG2 Irenicus quality). This is similar to the times where you can define your past in the game now but instead of being straight text, it should have more well done 2d art and vo (a couple do this but all should, IMO). Each of those "awakenings" of your past should give more than those simple clicky abilities you get now. Instead, you should get some kind of significant passive talent that comes with both a strength and a significant weakness to further define your character.

 

[Gord]

Each of those "awakenings" of your past should give more than those simple clicky abilities you get now. Instead, you should get some kind of significant passive talent that comes with both a strength and a significant weakness to further define your character.

I'm not really a fan of such things. Ultimately this kind of forced "significant" weaknesses only gimp your char. I'm fine with such things during character creation - you can choose some weakness in exchange for choosing some bonus, but the important thing here is choice.
Sure, a few of the more masochistic codexers might like the buttrape-like approach, but most other players probably won't. The only way I see to have it work, is to make it temporary, by giving you an option to remove the weakness by way of a quest. Which again is kinda boring and predictable.

What I think would have worked better to convey the madness/internal struggle is to confront the player with his awakened memories through combat encounters or dialogues.

 

[Shevek]

Like that mental dungeon they were planning for GM?

 

[Gord]

Maybe, why not.
On rest, let the player awaken to relive an old memory - like it happens with the Thaos/Inquisition memories, only more elaborate and on a separate map, not just in form of a text-box.
When the player reaches some place that triggers a memory, instead of showing just a few apparitions that instantly vanish again (and are absent for most of mid-game), have the party face some combat encounter from memory.
Make the memory-dialog scenes appear more frequent over the course of the campaign - doesn't need to be something that has much consequence, just to show that you increasingly get lost in your awakened memories.

 

[Shevek]

How can you fight a memory? The stuff is happening in your head. Also, if you are your past self, would you be a different class with different stats in these moments?

 

[Gord]

How can you fight a memory? The stuff is happening in your head.

Maerwald is projecting his memories to the outside world. Apparently that's something that can happen to awakened Watchers.

About class, dunno, both might work actually. You could use your current class, or find yourself in a completely different body. Depends on what the writer would want to say. I see potential for both approaches.

 

[Shevek]

It might be cool if your choices eventually led to the actual crafting of a past self (different classes, stats, etc) that goes on a mini adventure. Might be a cool idea for an expansion.

 

[prodigydancer]

On rest, let the player awaken to relive an old memory - like it happens with the Thaos/Inquisition memories, only more elaborate and on a separate map, not just in form of a text-box.

Yeah, that would be great. Less irrelevant trash fights and wall of text "visions", more story-related gameplay. I mean we all like reading but it's a video game, not a book.

 

[Copper]

Remember the fragments and memories in Mask of the Betrayer's dreams with Gann? Those were cool.

 

[rado907]

What's so degenerate about tank&spanking? I can think of three usual approaches to combat in games like PoE:
- Tank & spank
- Kiting
- Pets do all the work while you stroll around and pick up the loot

What else is there?

 

[tdphys]

Tank & Spank is a particular Pillars problem.

1. It's possible to create a character or two that have zero offensive capabilities but significantly higher defenses then the rest of the party.. (paladin, fighter, )

a. pump both defensive stats
b. take primarily defensive talents
c. use a shield (makes you lose accuracy)
d. heavy armor.

All of these trade offensive power for defensive. So yes, you can create a character that is a living wall.

The real problem comes when you combine this living wall with engagement. Engagement is a guaranteed
agro snatcher, AI pause, and makes this kind of character not just a choice, but the optimal one. When you
can snag 3 ai mobs, two defensive characters can hold a very large wall and take very little damage. The
rest of the characters can be optimized the other way, no armor, ranged weapons, and just mow down
everything. It's a degenerate, mindless (except for the initial setup) way to play I do think that in 1.05 ,
engagement takes longer to *engage*, and the ai has been programmed to be much more diligent about
seeking out the back line.

So by optimizing this way, we've negated 1. melee weapons (your tank will not do damage )
2. any armor except the heaviest for the front line. 3. real-time tactics. You just have to set up the
abbattoir

Pillars has a pretty agressive level schedule... in D20 terms you have accuracy at +7 by level 12 from class levels and add +3 from
superior weapon and another +3 from buffs. If you focus primarily on defense for a few characters, and offense for the others,
you can get that optimal defense and offense together.

Now if you plan for a front line that can do damage, then you've got to also plan for a front line that will fail at times (especially on POTD)
and you need to have contingencies (armor,weapons for the back line). Plus, you need to do more damage faster, which implies
getting your casters in line for heavier cone/bolts aoe's. You end up using your cool class abilities ( rogue's invis, druids shape shift,
wizards shield) more often, and combat becomes tactical and fun. All this would have been part of the game without the current engagement
system, because your tank would be useless except as an rts bodyblocker. Now you have to have fun by choice, and I do.

I just dropped Palegina for a morningstar wielding dwarvish barbarian warrioress... so much fun, so much carnage, and she can take a lot of punishment,
even in hide armor.