Interview Pete Hines chats with Gaming Source

[mr. lamat]

boo-fucking-hoo volourn. either make with the goffy wrist-slitting or play a different note on that sad, melancholy trumpet of your's.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

If you add up the main quest, plus all the side quests, guilds, factions, and other groups with quest lines that you can pursue, there is literally over one hundred hours of gameplay (some say as much as 300 hours).

With 250 of that being walking time. It's not the quest time, it's the time it takes to walk from Balmora to Caldera(or whatever that town was called) or to Fort This-or-That which took up the majority of that time. Hell, even if you take a boat to Vivec to talk to the King, you're spending a good long time walking around to get to him. Finding one person in Vivec to give something to or to get some piece of information could take 40+ minutes if you knew which ziggurat they were in.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind exploring in Morrowind. However, saying it takes 300 hours to do everything in the game is a little misleading since the vast majority of that time is walking from Point A to Point B or wandering around until you find something or someone.

 

[mr. lamat]

Until these guys come out and say they will be making a true FO sequel (with all the goodies - TB, Isometric, SPECIAL, dialogue trees, yada yada yada), most guys will find what you are saying a bit hard to swallow

given the fact the game will be using the same engine as ES4, it's pretty safe to start working from the idea that tb and isometric are gone.

i think i've accepted it. it kinda sucks, but i'm not really married to technical issues.

 

[Duodenum]

Understood. Well, call me an optimist. I totally understand the frustration though, 6 years of waiting and disappointment after disappointment.

 

[Duodenum]

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind exploring in Morrowind. However, saying it takes 300 hours to do everything in the game is a little misleading since the vast majority of that time is walking from Point A to Point B or wandering around until you find something or someone.

Right -- that's why I said 100 hours first I think that if you know what you're doing, you can beat the main quest in around 25 hours, including travel time. I heard someone did it in about 8 hours warping directly to quest destinations using the console.

It'd have been nice if you could fast-travel to places you've already been. Click on the map, warp there (with appropriate time passing in the game world). That way you have to walk to new places once, but from then on you have the choice to walk there or not. Optional exploration.

 

[Volourn]

"boo-fucking-hoo volourn. either make with the goffy wrist-slitting or play a different note on that sad, melancholy trumpet of your's."

No, unlike yoiu, games aren't importnat enough to do that. Go cry about eveyrthing as you don't knwow what youa re talking. Still, bottom line is, Betsheda can't make good games and they have no intention in making games thata re enjoyable for me so why should I be grateful for them having the license? R00fles!

 

[mr. lamat]

rage against the dying of the light, muffin. RAGE!

i'm not saying be greatful, but that one-line rejoinder you've been spewing for three days now is getting tiresome. talk about the weather or something. talk about what might (big might because i have yet to see it, either) make a 3d fps fallout... good.

if they stick with wikipedia, then we can discuss contracts on their lives.

 

[Shevek]

I think it might be hard to talk about FPS Fallout in a meaningful and constructive way.

If you are uncomfortable discussing the percieved foibles inherant in moving away from isometric tb, perhaps you should just limit yourself to discussions of setting so as to be less irritated by some of the discussion here.

 

[Volourn]

"but that one-line rejoinder you've been spewing for three days now is getting tiresome."

Almost as tiresome as being commanded to give a game company that has amde ZERO games I've enjoyed in 2 decades a chance just because they spent money to the rights of one of my two fave series.

Almost is the key word.

 

[mr. lamat]

i'm not married to a specific engine for the game. for some, fallout lived and breathed by it's viewpoint and combat system, which is valid. such an issue is probably moot now, so bringing up the same points might be a waste of time. not to say that our discussion is any less of a waste of time, mind you. i think we were written off at hour f+1 anyways.

to me, fallout lived and breathed by it's merits as i saw them. choice, the exploration of morality and the compromises made to see goals fulfilled and the player having his or her actions resonate throughout the game world. bethesda's combat is weak, granted, but their capacity for storytelling and depth of gameworld is far weaker. rather than rabblerabble about engines and rulesets in a toilets whirlpool, perhaps a discussion relating to plots and issues tackled would be better served.

if not, they're going to listen to ES fans... and do you really want a fallout game that featured input from pokemonmaster and shadowninja2122?

 

[Shevek]

I am not going to accept game mechanics changes simply to get Bethesda's ear. If such things mean less to you, then by all means do as you see fit. But a FPS Fallout is a hard sell around here if you ask me (and I happen to like story driven stat FPS like DX1 and SS 1/2).

 

[mr. lamat]

you don't have to accept them, but should recognize they're a done deal. bethesda isn't going to break away from their bread and butter for the ES series with a totally different engine for the next installment.

i'm not trying to sell anything, and i don't think it's a 'fucking awesome' way to take the series, but i do think it's too late to worry about it.

 

[Seven]

you don't have to accept them, but should recognize they're a done deal. bethesda isn't going to break away from their bread and butter for the ES series with a totally different engine for the next installment.

i'm not trying to sell anything, and i don't think it's a 'fucking awesome' way to take the series, but i do think it's too late to worry about it.

Well they and probably will go that route, but in the end it will mean alienating a lot of peeple. FO didn't really live and breath through the viewpoint, but the system was critical; the the choices in the game were the result of that very robust system, now Bethesda wants to change that, why? It seems to me like they haven't even given SPECIAL a chance nor the viewpoint, so why should we let this slide? What's next, a linear-chapter-based FO? My fear is that if we give into any concession too easily, they'll then feel free to do whatever they like.

 

[mr. lamat]

my bad, i was refering to combat rulesets, not the over-arching special system. it's absolutely vital, given the relationship between skills, modifiers and checks which allowed for the variety of options. that's one issue worth going to bat for and can still be won.

 

[Duodenum]

I am not going to accept game mechanics changes simply to get Bethesda's ear. If such things mean less to you, then by all means do as you see fit. But a FPS Fallout is a hard sell around here if you ask me (and I happen to like story driven stat FPS like DX1 and SS 1/2).

FPS stands for First Person Shooter. Morrowind's a first or third person RPG. It's not a twitch game -- the success or failure of everything you do depends on your character's stats. The first person perspective exists to immerse the player into the character's point of view. Morrowind's game systems are set up to strike a balance between the player's input and what the character actually does -- probably not to the best effect, at least not from everyone's point of view, but that IS the intent. It's why you can swing away like a madman with your axe at point blank range, but never actually hit your opponent if your axe skill is low, or your opponent is lucky. And even if you hit, the amount of damage done is dependent on your character's skill, the weapon's stats & condition, and the opponent's armor rating, armor condition, armor skill and luck.

An FPS is a game like Doom, Quake, or Half-Life. You aim, you shoot, and survival and success is dependent entirely on the player's skills with mouse & keyboard or game pad.

That's part of the reason why (many would argue, unsuccessfully) Morrowind's combat is accomplished by clicking. If it were more complex -- say, if it required button combos, timing, etc. -- it would cease to be based on the character's stats entirely, and rather be based on the player's skill. At that point, Morrowind would have become a first person shooter (FPS). Like I said, the game attempts to strike a balance between player control and character stats. I don't think it'd be rocket science to change to turn-based combat with Morrowind's game systems -- basically all you're changing is how and when attacks are selected, but all the success/failure/damage/defense formulas are identical.

Again -- the debate about the success or failure of Morrowind's game and control systems is a separate issue. But Morrowind is NOT an FPS.

It may be a semantic issue, but the distinction between genres is clear.

And if you simply meant by FPS that it's in first-person perspective, I take back what I said

 

[Duodenum]

you don't have to accept them, but should recognize they're a done deal. bethesda isn't going to break away from their bread and butter for the ES series with a totally different engine for the next installment.

i'm not trying to sell anything, and i don't think it's a 'fucking awesome' way to take the series, but i do think it's too late to worry about it.

Well they and probably will go that route, but in the end it will mean alienating a lot of peeple. FO didn't really live and breath through the viewpoint, but the system was critical; the the choices in the game were the result of that very robust system, now Bethesda wants to change that, why? It seems to me like they haven't even given SPECIAL a chance nor the viewpoint, so why should we let this slide? What's next, a linear-chapter-based FO? My fear is that if we give into any concession too easily, they'll then feel free to do whatever they like.

I don't think there's been any indication that SPECIAL won't be used. Is there an interview or quote I missed?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Many different people got totally different things out of Morrowind. Many others did not. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with that, I agree. That's TES distinctive gameplay style. Fallout has a different style. Making Fallout with TES style would suck as much as making an isometric TB TES game focused on story. See my point and concern?

Morrowind and Daggerfall are very different in many, many ways beyond just the ones I listed.

I agree, that's why I prefer DF to MW, yet that difference is almost non-existent comparing to any other RPG style (Fallout, Ultima, Avernum, BG, etc). Same is true for FO1 and 2 though.

But why does that automatically mean the team is incapable of doing something DIFFERENT?

It doesn't, but these flaws that were mentioned indicate a certain approach to design. All the different studios that could have done FO3: Beth, Obsidian, Bio, Troika - they all would have made different games, because each studio has a different style, not because they suck.

what makes you think they're incapable of doing a completely different kind of RPG? Pete Hines' quote notwithstanding

I never said or implied that one individual developer is unable to learn or master something, but Bethesda is a business and Pete's statements shouldn't be ignored. Give me one reason why Bethesda would risk doing something different and risky instead of doing something that worked and worked very well (GOTY awards)?

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely see your point. And I totally agree that PR on this whole thing could have been handled much better. But I also think that it's premature to assume the project is doomed.

The project is not doomed, and like I said before, it maybe even an enjoyable sci-fi game if one forgets that it's FO3.

 

[mr. lamat]

they're discussing the possibility of 'jacking cars' ala gta3 over on the elder scrolls board.

yes, i'm serious.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Link?

 

[Duodenum]

I never said or implied that one individual developer is unable to learn or master something, but Bethesda is a business and Pete's statements shouldn't be ignored. Give me one reason why Bethesda would risk doing something different and risky instead of doing something that worked and worked very well (GOTY awards)?

Because the Fallout fanbase has expressed exactly what it is they DO want, and Bethesda hopes that they buy the game? As I said in another post, maybe Bethesda's goal isn't just to sell Fallout to Morrowind fans, but to bring Fallout fans over to Bethesda. The only reason I can think of where that wouldn't be the case is if there aren't enough Fallout fans to matter.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

FPS stands for First Person Shooter. Morrowind's a first or third person RPG. It's not a twitch game -- the success or failure of everything you do depends on your character's stats.

Okay, that's a nice piece of marketting gimmicky there, but in reality, you end up running up to the empty and clickity click clickity click on them until one of you is dead.

The first person perspective exists to immerse the player into the character's point of view.

Which gets annoying quick when you have a cliff racer swooping down and smacking you around and you can't figure out where it's coming from because of the tiny FOV first person offers. In situations like that, you're straddling and fighting with the controls and interface, which is about as unimmersive as it gets. That's the real reason why people hated cliff racers. Even if they couldn't put their fingers on the precise reason, it's because they expose the limitations of immersion in first person.

It's why you can swing away like a madman with your axe at point blank range, but never actually hit your opponent if your axe skill is low, or your opponent is lucky.

Or if you're .35 degrees off the opponent's sweet spot for being able to hit him. That's another problem with first person in CRPGs. You're dealing with the fact you have to aim the interface in first person long before anything is "rolled".

An FPS is a game like Doom, Quake, or Half-Life. You aim, you shoot, and survival and success is dependent entirely on the player's skills with mouse & keyboard or game pad.

But in Morrowind, you still have all that in addition to a dice roll. You can either interface miss or roll miss, but you have to interface hit and roll hit to score a hit. It's LARPS with Double Jeopardy!

 

[mr. lamat]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/ ... o=&fpart=1

it's in there somewhere... someone named brona brought it up. it's been a theme and request by the ES crowd, more cars to drive around in.

 

[Duodenum]

FPS stands for First Person Shooter. Morrowind's a first or third person RPG. It's not a twitch game -- the success or failure of everything you do depends on your character's stats.

Okay, that's a nice piece of marketting gimmicky there, but in reality, you end up running up to the empty and clickity click clickity click on them until one of you is dead.

The first person perspective exists to immerse the player into the character's point of view.

Which gets annoying quick when you have a cliff racer swooping down and smacking you around and you can't figure out where it's coming from because of the tiny FOV first person offers. In situations like that, you're straddling and fighting with the controls and interface, which is about as unimmersive as it gets. That's the real reason why people hated cliff racers. Even if they couldn't put their fingers on the precise reason, it's because they expose the limitations of immersion in first person.

It's why you can swing away like a madman with your axe at point blank range, but never actually hit your opponent if your axe skill is low, or your opponent is lucky.

Or if you're .35 degrees off the opponent's sweet spot for being able to hit him. That's another problem with first person in CRPGs. You're dealing with the fact you have to aim the interface in first person long before anything is "rolled".

An FPS is a game like Doom, Quake, or Half-Life. You aim, you shoot, and survival and success is dependent entirely on the player's skills with mouse & keyboard or game pad.

But in Morrowind, you still have all that in addition to a dice roll. You can either interface miss or roll miss, but you have to interface hit and roll hit to score a hit. It's LARPS with Double Jeopardy!

Right, that's the balance I was talking about. I think you're replying to portions of my message before reading the entire thing, because I mention most of the concerns you raise later in my post

Anyway the point of that particular post was to raise the distinction between an FPS game as belonging to the genre of the first-person shooter, and a role-playing game like Morrowind which happens to offer a first person viewpoint. Whether you like the style of game play or not, Morrowind is NOT a first person shooter.

If all people are referring to when they type FPS in regards to Morrowind mean is "it's in first person", that's fine. I have no dispute with that

 

[Shevek]

Duodenum:

I disagree. However, I do not wish to derail this thread. I will say Morrowind is very heavily twitch based (just like Deus Ex or System Shock, both FPS variants, which also utilize a character development system to partially determine success in combat).

 

[Duodenum]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2809375&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

it's in there somewhere... someone named brona brought it up. it's been a theme and request by the ES crowd, more cars to drive around in.

Oh dear god.

Well, I would hope that the Bethesda developers listen to FALLOUT fans, rather to Morrowind fans, when deciding what to do for Fallout 3.