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Path of Exile is a MAJESTIC incline

Jaedar

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Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
I just bought a supporter pack

UxTzlQL.png


Figured they've earned it lately with the massive waves of content.

I mean just look at the whopping offers you get in D3 these days:



Show me the beta skill tree changes :)
 

Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I'll probably go with the pathfinder build that T.Reich linked above.
Or yet another summoner/necro...

Any word out on summoner QoL changes in the beta yet from streamers etc.? I love summoner more than anything but can't be arsed to deal with the hassles anymore

Nothing yet. Going to keep a summoner around myself to spectre-test all the new mobs. Here's to hoping we get a new one thats akin to pre-nerf burning miscreations/stygian revenants. :M
 

Saark

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Hell yeah one of my favorite skills got a nice buff!
Thats not the only thing that got changed.
105e8886a6.jpg


The spell gets +1 radius on lvl10 and 20.

edit: In case you're not entirely sure how much of an AoE increase that is, Glacial Cascade has a base radius of 6, so at lv20 it's a 33% increase to radius, which then scales further with increased area. I am already hitting mobs off-screen with just 36% inc AoE.
 
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ArchAngel

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I am not sure if that change to Glacial Cascade is a buff or a nerf. It is easier to get elemental and cold damage from tree and items than physical damage (that is general and not for weapons).
 

T. Reich

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not even close
It's a glorious buff.

Before:
*spell/aoe damage scales everything, cold dmg only scales cold portion, phys dmg scales only phys portion
*extra phys to ele conversion only scales part of phys base
*extra phys dmg added as ele only scales off part of the base damage

Now:
*spell/aoe damage scales everything, cold dmg scales after-conversion cold portion (meaning that scaling phys base will also increase the cold damage now), phys dmg scales EVERYTHING (because it scales phys pre-conversion)
*extra phys to ele conversion scales from all ALL base damage -> means that extra phys to cold conversion can now achieve 100% phys to cold (or, alternatively, slapping cold to fire gem + getting avatar of fire keystone will turn the new cascade into 100% fire damage spell).
*extra phys dmg added as ele only scales from ALL the base damage-> means that added fire damage and physical to lightning supports, hatred aura and herald of ash will provide the full damage bonus rather than scaling the measly phys portion of the old cascade.

P.S.: This actually makes me want to try out glacial cascade post-beta now.
One interesting thing for me is going 100% elemental via either 100% cold conversion (but it requires going deep into ranger area with nothing else of use nearby - blech!), or using phys to lightning gem to make a significant portion of GC to be lightning damage. Then I go full crit inquisitor so I can ignore enemy res (and making ele pen redundant), while still making hella good use of herald of ice - this basically turns GC into light+cold caster version of Sunder.
Alternatively, slapping on cold to fire gem + taking avatar of fire keystone will make GC do 100% fire damage (60% phys to cold via spell, remaining 40% phys to fire via AoF; 50% cold to fire via gem, remaining 50% cold to fire via AoF). Herald of ash, added fire damage and hatred will retain their full effectiveness.
Best class here is either witch (anti-reflect + some ignite shenanigans), berserker (raw damage + leech) or chieftain (some sick Hinekora synergy with nu-GC). Crit or non-crit (probably non, and go EO instead), ignite or non-ignite.

P.P.S.: I'm dumb! We have Hrimburn! 50% phys to cold conversion AND cold damage can ignite! This is getting better by the minute!
 
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ArchAngel

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Except you still didn't explain how will you scale physical spell damage when access to that is worse than access to elemental or cold damage nodes. Especially when there are awesome scepters and item mods for them that will give lots of elemental or cold damage boosts and same don't exist for physical damage except as local modifiers to base weapon damage.
I had the same problem when coming up with how to further boost Bladefall damage by using Physical Damage boost and could not find good solutions in Breach league.
 

Saark

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Except you still didn't explain how will you scale physical spell damage when access to that is worse than access to elemental or cold damage nodes. Especially when there are awesome scepters and item mods for them that will give lots of elemental or cold damage boosts and same don't exist for physical damage except as local modifiers to base weapon damage.
I had the same problem when coming up with how to further boost Bladefall damage by using Physical Damage boost and could not find good solutions in Breach league.
Every damage interaction is either buffed or unchanged. It simply cannot be a nerf. Impossible.

Physical damage increases will now affect GCs damage with 100% of its value, instead of 50%.
Elemental/cold damage increases will now affect GCs damage with 100% of its value, instead of 50%.
Spell/AoE damage increases already fully affected GC, and will continue to do so.
Damage conversion effects (hatred, added fire support, phys to lightning, cold to fire etc.) will also have their effect on GCs damage doubled, since all of them previously just affected 50% of the damage.
Damage penetration now effects 100% of GCs damage, instead of 50% (unless you managed to convert 100% of it to fire previously, in which case nothing changes).

Edit: All of this considers GC to have 100% conversion to cold, which is manageable by either picking up Winter Spirit or having the uber-lab helmet enchant. Even without a full conversion it is still better than before.
 

T. Reich

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not even close
Except you still didn't explain how will you scale physical spell damage when access to that is worse than access to elemental or cold damage nodes. Especially when there are awesome scepters and item mods for them that will give lots of elemental or cold damage boosts and same don't exist for physical damage except as local modifiers to base weapon damage.
I had the same problem when coming up with how to further boost Bladefall damage by using Physical Damage boost and could not find good solutions in Breach league.

*spell/aoe damage scales everything, cold dmg scales after-conversion cold portion (meaning that scaling phys base will also increase the cold damage now), phys dmg scales EVERYTHING (because it scales phys pre-conversion)

Bolded, italicised and underlined for your viewing pleasure.

No wonder you shit on PoE. You're too dumb for the game.
 

Saark

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It's also really not that hard to scale physical damage anymore ever since the shadow-area got reworked. For Glacial Cascade you wanna go to the ranger nodes anyway to pick up Winter Spirit. Take this tree for example, 195% pyhsical damage with just a bunch of nodes from the shadow start and Force Shaper. You can easily pick up VP too, and more damage is readily available by dropping the scion wheel and going to templar instead for the holy trinity of racing spellcaster nodes (Retribution, Elementalist, Light of Divinity).
 

ArchAngel

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Except you still didn't explain how will you scale physical spell damage when access to that is worse than access to elemental or cold damage nodes. Especially when there are awesome scepters and item mods for them that will give lots of elemental or cold damage boosts and same don't exist for physical damage except as local modifiers to base weapon damage.
I had the same problem when coming up with how to further boost Bladefall damage by using Physical Damage boost and could not find good solutions in Breach league.

*spell/aoe damage scales everything, cold dmg scales after-conversion cold portion (meaning that scaling phys base will also increase the cold damage now), phys dmg scales EVERYTHING (because it scales phys pre-conversion)

Bolded, italicised and underlined for your viewing pleasure.

No wonder you shit on PoE. You're too dumb for the game.
Yes I know spell damage scales it, but so it did old version. What do you still not understand about my question?
I am still waiting for a coherent post from you. Take a deep breath before you start writing one, seems your emotions are taking the better of you.
 

ArchAngel

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It's also really not that hard to scale physical damage anymore ever since the shadow-area got reworked. For Glacial Cascade you wanna go to the ranger nodes anyway to pick up Winter Spirit. Take this tree for example, 195% pyhsical damage with just a bunch of nodes from the shadow start and Force Shaper. You can easily pick up VP too, and more damage is readily available by dropping the scion wheel and going to templar instead for the holy trinity of racing spellcaster nodes (Retribution, Elementalist, Light of Divinity).
I did all that for Bladefall, still not good enough.
 

ArchAngel

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Except you still didn't explain how will you scale physical spell damage when access to that is worse than access to elemental or cold damage nodes. Especially when there are awesome scepters and item mods for them that will give lots of elemental or cold damage boosts and same don't exist for physical damage except as local modifiers to base weapon damage.
I had the same problem when coming up with how to further boost Bladefall damage by using Physical Damage boost and could not find good solutions in Breach league.
Every damage interaction is either buffed or unchanged. It simply cannot be a nerf. Impossible.

Physical damage increases will now affect GCs damage with 100% of its value, instead of 50%.
Elemental/cold damage increases will now affect GCs damage with 100% of its value, instead of 50%.
Spell/AoE damage increases already fully affected GC, and will continue to do so.
Damage conversion effects (hatred, added fire support, phys to lightning, cold to fire etc.) will also have their effect on GCs damage doubled, since all of them previously just affected 50% of the damage.
Damage penetration now effects 100% of GCs damage, instead of 50% (unless you managed to convert 100% of it to fire previously, in which case nothing changes).

Edit: All of this considers GC to have 100% conversion to cold, which is manageable by either picking up Winter Spirit or having the uber-lab helmet enchant. Even without a full conversion it is still better than before.
No, elemental/cold affect it at 60% of value unless you can get that 60% phy to cold to turn into 100% phy to cold.

But Hatred seems to be biggest winner for new combination. Yes that will work wonderfully.

But all this theorycrafting means little without trying to run all the numbers through Path of Building and seeing the result. Something I don't care to do as I don't find that spell fun to play with.
 

Saark

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No, elemental/cold affect it at 60% of value unless you can get that 60% phy to cold to turn into 100% phy to cold
So you ignore all the other things that got their scaling massively improved, focus on the one that STILL got increased by 20%, and were unable to read the last line.
Hrimburn (Hrimsorrow work aswell, and they're less than 1c)
Winter Spirit (the node before it has 20% aswell, for 40% conversion).
Uber Lab

You need any more handholding?

I did all that for Bladefall, still not good enough.
I've leveled plenty of builds through up to T10 maps before respeccing, most of them I was using Bladefall myself. With zero investment into damage, since I was preparing the tree for the actual build, I had no issues whatsoever. Bladefall is perfectly fine as a poison-mine build for Guardians/Shaper/Atziri, and clears reasonably well (one-shotting packs, not as fast as Vaal-builds) even in T15 maps with decent investment, either selfcast, totem-based or mines/traps. Not sure what the fuck you're doing quite honestly. Mind linking your Bladefall character so we can see what the possible issues might be?
 
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ArchAngel

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No, elemental/cold affect it at 60% of value unless you can get that 60% phy to cold to turn into 100% phy to cold
So you ignore all the other things that got their scaling massively improved, focus on the one that STILL got increased by 20%, and were unable to read the last line.
Hrimburn (Hrimsorrow work aswell, and they're less than 1c)
Winter Spirit (the node before it has 20% aswell, for 40% conversion).
Uber Lab
Ok sorry, didn't notice you said at bottom you converted it to 100%. I guess that is required for it and I didn't know about those two nodes. It is almost like they made them for Glacial Cascade :D
Yes with those nodes, this change is a big buff to the skill even without running any numbers because now in addition to everything before you can also scale it with Physical damage and Hatred works great with it. Hmm maybe I should now try the Assassin Glacial Cascade build I was planning to try once.
Hrimburn I would not use, I rather keep the slot for high ES gear with good resists.
I did all that for Bladefall, still not good enough.
I've leveled plenty of builds through up to T10 maps before respeccing, most of them I was using Bladefall myself. With zero investment into damage, since I was preparing the tree for the actual build, I had no issues whatsoever. Bladefall is perfectly fine as a poison-mine build for Guardians/Shaper/Atziri, and clears reasonably well (one-shotting packs, not as fast as Vaal-builds) even in T15 maps with decent investment, either selfcast, totem-based or mines/traps. Not sure what the fuck you're doing quite honestly. Mind linking your Bladefall character so we can see what the possible issues might be?
I didn't use it as a leveling build but as a Trapper. Poison Bladefall Saboteur, non crit based. Got him to about lvl 85 or something, he was Life/Acrobatics based. Good enough character, fun but I felt like the damage was still too low although he one shot many things (by one shot, I needed to use just one clustered bladefall trap). But when I watched some videos of others, they would kill map bosses and Atziri faster than I could. Maybe the build was nerfed in the meantime and that is why damage seemed weaker than I expected. To boost damage I took all Physical and chaos damage passives I could and even used two Obliteration wands and that ring that also gives extra chaos damage based on your physical damage.
 

Saark

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Plenty of stuff wrong with how you played your BF build, I'll try to narrow it down:
non crit based
There's very few non-crit trapper/miner builds, go crit.
Both assassin and occultist are better when you want more dps. CI occultist works fine since profane bloom/wicked ward trigger when enemies die to poison (since the source of the damage no longer exists on-kill effects default to the player). Low-life assassin while expensive easily puts out 3-5times the damage a saboteur does, probably more.
even used two Obliteration wands and that ring that also gives extra chaos damage based on your physical damage.
Both are noob-traps and show that you have a very limited understanding of how damage increases aswell as poison-scaling work in general. You did not scale the base-damage of the bladefall, losing out on multiple double-dipping possibilities, and thus your damage was low. When you apply poison with physical damage, you do not get chaos/poison damage. You get trap/physical/area/spell damage since it double-dips. You do not get physical->chaos conversion items, since they do absolutely nothing to increase the base-damage, and the increase to poison-damage is minimal. Get spelldamage wands/daggers for starters, switch to a woe-crafted bow and soulstrike for CI or a life/crit/critmulti quiver. Void Batteries are fine too.
Weapon-swap to a set with jaws of agony for easy power charge generation.
 

ArchAngel

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Plenty of stuff wrong with how you played your BF build, I'll try to narrow it down:
non crit based
There's very few non-crit trapper/miner builds, go crit.
Both assassin and occultist are better when you want more dps. CI occultist works fine since profane bloom/wicked ward trigger when enemies die to poison (since the source of the damage no longer exists on-kill effects default to the player). Low-life assassin while expensive easily puts out 3-5times the damage a saboteur does, probably more.
Builds I was researching didn't go critical as well. Also the at the time I didn't know how good were some of the trap jewels and wanted to have that saboteur ability that activates all traps. Also Saboteur gets 60% trap cooldown which is very important. It is very quality of life stuff that lets you clear maps faster. Assassin would need to use a slot for trap cooldown support. And I don't like to fuck around with crits if I also need to use diamond flask to achieve dependable crit chances. Crits do give most damage but management is sometimes too irritating (upkeeping power charges included)
even used two Obliteration wands and that ring that also gives extra chaos damage based on your physical damage.
Both are noob-traps and show that you have a very limited understanding of how damage increases aswell as poison-scaling work in general. You did not scale the base-damage of the bladefall, losing out on multiple double-dipping possibilities, and thus your damage was low. When you apply poison with physical damage, you do not get chaos/poison damage. You get trap/physical/area/spell damage since it double-dips. You do not get physical->chaos conversion items, since they do absolutely nothing to increase the base-damage, and the increase to poison-damage is minimal. Get spelldamage wands/daggers for starters, switch to a woe-crafted bow and soulstrike for CI or a life/crit/critmulti quiver. Void Batteries are fine too.
Weapon-swap to a set with jaws of agony for easy power charge generation.
Everything I read and researched said that poison damage is always chaos damage and that only physical and chaos damage can apply poison damage (beyond special items like that unique dagger that makes fire damage work with poison). So I found as much physical and chaos damage bonuses I could. And trap of course, I know trap passives double dip. Physical does not double dip and spell damage does not double dip, I don't know where you got that from (spell damage double dips only with special spells like Vortex and Essence Drain). I got obliteration wands because they give extra chaos damage on top of physical damage which then double dips with my bonus chaos damage nodes. Same for the ring. Obliteration wands also give bonus spell damage so it scales base Bladefall damage and gives 15% extra chaos damage per wand.
 

Saark

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Builds I was researching didn't go critical as well. Also the at the time I didn't know how good were some of the trap jewels and wanted to have that saboteur ability that activates all traps. Also Saboteur gets 60% trap cooldown which is very important. It is very quality of life stuff that lets you clear maps faster. Assassin would need to use a slot for trap cooldown support. And I don't like to fuck around with crits if I also need to use diamond flask to achieve dependable crit chances. Crits do give most damage but management is sometimes too irritating (upkeeping power charges included)
You don't need a slot for trap cooldown, one trap per pack is all you need. Since it is so easy to keep up power-charges as a trapper with just a weapon-swapped Jaws of Agony, there's no reason to not go crit and benefit from the huge increase to the initial hit of the spell. Most of the QoL of Saboteur is unnecessary, which is why most trap/mine builds currently don't even use the dedicated trap/mine ascendancy. Sunblast+2 Cheap Construction jewels provide the same instant-trigger, you can also just use rapid decay if you don't have the jewels/sockets yet. The smaller nodes only increase elemental damage, which doesn't help you at all. Offensively Saboteur is way worse than assassin, defensively it is way worse than occultist. Both also provide the opportunity to just play self-cast instead, as saboteur you are locked into traps.
You don't really need a diamond flask, you do however have to constantly keep up Sins Rebirth, Atziris Promise and Witchfire Brew. I suggest playing something else if you don't want to micromanage, any kind of trapper requires quite a lot of it.

Obliteration just isn't worth it since it has no critchance, multi or spelldamage. The wand is garbage, trust me. Mings Heart is a decent ring, but it sucks for surviving and since you cannot leech as a trapper you really don't want to use mings. If you're selfcasting mings is a good choice once the rest of your gear is good enough.

Chaosdmg does make more sense, you're right, mostly due to using Sins Rebirth/Atziris to get some additional chaos>poison scaling, I forgot about those two when making my post. Spell/physical damage do not doubledip on bladefall, you're right, they're still preferable until you get multiple "additional physical as chaos damage" sources. Without any of those, choosing physical damage over chaosdmg does not change the damage of the poison on any given hit but it does increase the initial damage, which results in overall more damage.
 

ArchAngel

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Later I played another traper (vortex assassin) with sunblast but it is not a good belt, especially if you are CI. Best result I found is using trigger radius jewels, two of those plus some passives from tree works awesome. Cooldown is still a problem, I often ran out of traps even with one trap casting per pack.

Obliteration just isn't worth it since it has no critchance, multi or spelldamage. The wand is garbage, trust me. Mings Heart is a decent ring, but it sucks for surviving and since you cannot leech as a trapper you really don't want to use mings. If you're selfcasting mings is a good choice once the rest of your gear is good enough.

Chaosdmg does make more sense, you're right, mostly due to using Sins Rebirth/Atziris to get some additional chaos>poison scaling, I forgot about those two when making my post. Spell/physical damage do not doubledip on bladefall, you're right, they're still preferable until you get multiple "additional physical as chaos damage" sources. Without any of those, choosing physical damage over chaosdmg does not change the damage of the poison on any given hit but it does increase the initial damage, which results in overall more damage.
Are we talking about this http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Obliteration wand? Because I am.
It gives 35% spell damage, 15% extra chaos damage from physical AND 20% chance stuff explodes for more chaos damage. With two of those and the Ming's Heart I got 50% added chaos damage. How is that not good. Please show me two better weapons for a non crit Bladefall trapper?
To counteract Ming's Ring I used Belly of the Beast.
 
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ArchAngel

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Later I played another traper (vortex assassin) with sunblast but it is not a good belt, especially if you are CI. Best result I found is using trigger radius jewels, two of those plus some passives from tree works awesome. Cooldown is still a problem, I often ran out of traps even with one trap casting per pack.
thats a problem with non poison traps. I was running tri-ele to get around this issue
Actually it was less of a problem with second build, I had a secondary Ice Nova Trap. Bladefall trapper had no alternative to help with trap cooldowns as no other skill was similar enough to bladefall. It also showed me that without saboteur that build would have been in a bigger trouble as well.
I am not sure I want to bother ever again with traps. Bow mines might be what I will try at some point since that way I can avoid the biggest problem of mines, need to run to enemy and place it there.
 

lukaszek

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deterministic system > RNG
 
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