Oblivion wasn't dumbed down for consoles sez Desslock

[Naked_Lunch]

Brackets are mine

I've heard this theory floated that Oblivion succumbed to this trend - that Bethesda dumbed down the game to make it more accesible for console gamers. Frankly, that's just nutty. How is Oblivion dumbed down compared to its predecessor, Morrowind? By having NPCs that actually move [omg!] and have a purpose? By having more interactive and varied enviorments [dungeon and forest! OH wow!] and incorporating a physics system that helps the world feel more realistic? By including additional quests and making those quests more involved? By weaving a more substantial plot? By allowing you to ride horses [but not attack on them!]? By having more complex AI behavior? By offering a larger world with more monsters, spells, items, caves, temples, and lairs, and allowing you to go immediately where you want in that world [Wait? ISn't that dumbing the game down?]? By including more purposeful guild quests that grant enduring abilities/stature/effects? By giving you more NPCs to converse with, each of whom have more to say, and have fully acted speech? By alling NPCs acutally to interact with each other, unlike morrowind's wax museum? By boasting more readable books [Not true. I'm sure Morrowind had a helluva lot more books than OB] and plant types to harvest or collect? By providing additional inhabitable residences and giving your more decoration options for those homes? By giving you companions and followers for the first time in the series? By sotcking the world with pets and animals? By including gladitorial fighting? By having a theives' guild that acutally rewards you for stealing?

Yeah, we really got screwed.

Sure, other RPGs like Fallout and Planescape: Torment do a better job of allowing you to roleplay a truly distinct character by, for instance, haivng NPCs respond differently to characters that espeically dumb or charismatic. But if you like hte type of RPG that Bethesda's been producing over the years, Oblivion is clearly a quantum stpe forward depth [I like the irony of using "quantum step." Aren't quantum leaps/steps the smallest movements possible?]. Suggesting that it's dumbed down for consoles demonstrates such utter lack of perspective that it's tantamount to RPG blashpemy.

You can email desslock at alternatelives@pcgamer.com

This is one of the few times in life that I'm seriously dumbfounded and simply cannot grasp at words to respond to this.

 

[ixg]

Desslock liked Dungeon Siege 2. 'Nuff said.

 

[Country_Gravy]

I read this while taking a crap the other day (really the only thing that PC Gamer is good for any more...mindless reading while shitting) and I thought the same thing. I couldn't believe he was saying this stuff. It sounded like he was targeting the Codex since everything he said was everything that people here used to show that it was dumbed down.

 

[corvax]

It's not what the game can do for you, it's what you can do in the game. This fellow Desslock seems like he's been hit in the head with a "bloom bat" one too many times. The dumbed down topic has been beat to death and is quite valid. And this is coming from someone who actually likes Oblivion...for what it is.

 

[Claw]

This is one of the few times in life that I'm seriously dumbfounded and simply cannot grasp at words to respond to this.

Then don't. I find it increasingly easy to ignore morons.

Besides, Desslock is using a tactic as popular as it it simple: He only mentions "positive" arguments, ignoring all the bad ones. Another one is the even simpler tactic called lying. Substantial plot? Are you f*cking kidding me? It's like those guys claiming "We found WMD in Iraq!" - I guess you know what I mean.
There just isn't a way that leads to taking this guy seriously.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ok. Desslock is a moron. What else is new?

 

[Zomg]

A quantum leap suggests a discrete change in state, as opposed to a gradual one, like the evolution/revolution cliche. The common usage is usually correct, if sometimes accidentally. Although, in this case Oblivion by most accounts is like a Blizzard evolutionary version of Morrowind, with production values cranked up and core gameplay (whacking things until dead and getting bigger swords) spruced up at the molecular level.

Desslock is either being bribed or is deeply hypnotized by some friendship or backslapper at Bethesda. Or, he might be like that game journo that was around here for a while that had it in his head that Bethesda is a tiny indie underdog and needs enthusiasm to live. People that won't even make the concession to the, "What's so bad about going for a big audience, huh, commie?" or "It's a fun game lol I have two suits of deadric armor and a sword enchanted with constant explosion ok" species of Oblivion apology have something else going on.

 

[Claw]

A bomb explodes at a wedding, killing the wife and many guests. I gues you could describe that as a quantum leap: A discrete change in the mood of the survivors.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I've heard this theory floated that Oblivion succumbed to this trend - that Bethesda dumbed down the game to make it more accesible for console gamers.

I don't know that it was done as a means to make it more accessible for console gamers as opposed to simply being a case of developers not knowing any better or being willing to put the effort in to make something decent but I agree it was dumbed down.

How is Oblivion dumbed down compared to its predecessor, Morrowind?

• Levitation, mark and recall gone.
• Less skills.
• Spears, Crossbows other weapons simply removed.
• Lockpicking not requiring any character skill.
• Persuasion mini-game anyone?
• Alchemy was nerfed in some way, wasn't it? (I can't tell, I never use it)
• All items and encounters are levelled to meet the player, thus removing any and all challenge that might ever have been present. Lockpicking that super-hard chest in the castle at level 1 nets you some coin and not the bounty you might've hoped for given the difficulty of the lock or importance of the castle the chest is in. Wandering into the furthest, darkest cave in the entire land at level 1 finds you in an encounter with nothing more than rats.
• Compass.

Walking about NPCs does not a deep game make. "Dumbing down" is when there's excessive over-simplification in a game. Where once you might've had a choice to make, now that choice is easier because the outcome doesn't matter or there simply is no choice. Where once you might've had to work hard to gain something, in a dumbed down game that's now easier. While things have been added (horsies!), just as much has been taken out. More importantly, what's been added was all done so in the name of simplification. Oblivion adds walking about NPCs so to simplify the process of finding them, we get a compass. Oblivion has great distances so to simplify the process of travelling you can fast-travel. Weapons have been removed and corresponding skills, making your combat decisions easier when it comes to what weapons you'll use and so on.

incorporating a physics system that helps the world feel more realistic?

You mean monsters flying five feet backwards when you hit them is realistic? About the only thing really added by the physics are the pre-set traps. All of which are nicely placed in such a position that they scream "Hey, you can win this fight really easily if you trigger this trap and swing this log down here and crush those two guys who are standing conveniently in its path". Not that the fights needed to be any easier mind you.

By including additional quests and making those quests more involved? By weaving a more substantial plot?

I'm not sure how the quests or plot in Oblivion are anymore substantial than that in Morrowind. "Got this package. Fed Ex it for me mate?"

By allowing you to ride horses?

Horses in Oblivion serve just about the same purpose as the Stilt Striders did in Morrowind. They exist only to get you somewhere faster. You can't attack from them even though they themselves seem prone to being attacked, nor can you do anything else with them and they also run home again if you steal one because, you know, they're magic horses.

By having more complex AI behavior?

AI behaviour that stuffs up so completely as to result in an experience more akin to a bad comedy show?

By including more purposeful guild quests that grant enduring abilities/stature/effects

You could grant enduring effects onto yourself in Morrowind. Having guilds do it now is neither here nor there.

By giving you more NPCs to converse with, each of whom have more to say, and have fully acted speech?

The NPCs in Oblivion actually have LESS to say than their counterparts in Morrowind.

By alling NPCs acutally to interact with each other, unlike morrowind's wax museum?

You mean how they bump into each other and say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again? And how you can kill them and nobody seems to care all that much? Or how you can get them to "interact" by attacking each other?

By boasting more readable books

Half of the books in Oblivion were taken from Morrowind and yes, as NL said, Oblivion actually has LESS books than Morrowind.

By including gladitorial fighting?

Which you can complete at level 1? Who ever heard of a Grand Master Champion at level 1? That's a bit... dumb, isn't it? Just a bit too simple?

Suggesting that it's dumbed down for consoles demonstrates such utter lack of perspective that it's tantamount to RPG blasphemy.

I think anyone who can't see that things have been removed from Oblivion when compared to Morrowind, needs to play Morrowind again.

 

[Bradylama]

I already embarrassed myself on these forums debunking Todd Howard's atrocious lies. I almost wrote an angry e-mail, but not only do I not want PC Gamer to know that I accidentally renewed my subscription, but it's just a general waste of time in general and really pathetic.

Everything Desslock describes makes Oblivion a post card lake. It looks big, sure, nice reflection of the Rockies but it's about 6 inches deep.

"I mean, sure, like, Fallout and Planescape were better RPGs but Oblivion isn't dumbed down!"

Drawing at straws, Desslock?

Alchemy was nerfed in some way, wasn't it?

Probably. I just remember it was a great way to make money and easy cash. Ingredients were just so light, and making potions practically halved all of my weight! That is honestly the most enjoyment I got out of playing Oblivion, being a clever dumpling and maximizing my profit/weight ratio.

 

[FaranBrygo]

One of the reasons I ended 10 year subscription to PC Gamer was the Oblivion review.

 

[DemonKing]

Well seeing as I vastly prefer Oblvion to Morrowind (although neither are really my favourite type of CRPG - I far prefer party-based games), I have to say whether or not some concepts from Morrowind were "dumbed down", I don't think it hurt the game significantly.

The real damage to the series was probably done when it was first decided to make Morrowind a console game, so I can hardly get upset that Obvlivion suffers from some of the same "consolitis" issues as its forebearer.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oblivion makes Morrowind look like a masterpiece.

 

[Spectacle]

Oblivion wasn't dumbed down for consoles, it was dumbed down for dumb people.

However, dumb people tend to congregate in the console world for two reasons:
1. Consoles are less complex than computers, so dumb people have less trouble using them
2. Computers are more expensive than consoles, and dumb people usually have less money than smart people.

 

[Crichton]

I think most of the statements in the author's paragraph are just plain untrue,

-there are fewer quests in OB
-fewer locations (and they're very similar)
-NPC AI is laugh-out-loud bad
-fewer NPCs with less to say (less dialogue period)
-Guild advancement means less
-Guild interaction is non-existant
-fewer books

However on the other side-
-Combat is leaps and bounds more interesting
-If you count by combat styles instead of different skins/models, there are more monster types since there's so much variety in the humanoids
-some (not all) of the OB quests are much better than any of the morrowind quests
-at higher levels, the enemies get downright mean, something that never happened in morrowind (my heavily-armored boxer had a hell of a time even fighting a draw with a bear)
The dungeons are larger, more involved (have cool traps) and whatnot, as opposed to 2 dark elves in light armor with a barrel full of some plant that's good for nothing.

I'd say that in general OB has a better engine but less (and worse) content, so it's ripe for a total conversion (that'll take years to make). However if you just like going through the dungeons, there are more interesting dungeons, a more interesting combat system and more enemy variety (among the humanoids).

edit: "NPCs have less to say was listed twice"

 

[User was nabbed fit]

off corse Obliviyon wuznt dumbed down four consoles, thats rediculus! hahaha. why I laugh?

 

[Bradylama]

So what were Desslock's credentials anyways? Did he suck Dan Morriss's dick, or did he have to burn somebody's pasty white flesh when nobody bought that he played tabletops in his basement chomping on that stupid cigar?

 

[dongle]

How is Oblivion dumbed down compared to its predecessor, Morrowind?

• Levitation, mark and recall gone.
• Less skills.
• Spears, Crossbows other weapons simply removed.
• Lockpicking not requiring any character skill.
• Persuasion mini-game anyone?
• Alchemy was nerfed in some way, wasn't it? (I can't tell, I never use it)
• All items and encounters are levelled to meet the player, thus removing any and all challenge that might ever have been present. Lockpicking that super-hard chest in the castle at level 1 nets you some coin and not the bounty you might've hoped for given the difficulty of the lock or importance of the castle the chest is in. Wandering into the furthest, darkest cave in the entire land at level 1 finds you in an encounter with nothing more than rats.
• Compass.

How about all the popups and journal entries you get that tell you exactly where to go and what to do to solve any quest, before you even start out?

 

[Cycloptis]

I smile at truth, but I'm not smiling at Mr. Desslock's editorial.

 

[theverybigslayer]

"By allowing you to ride horses"
You can ride horses in Wizards & Warriors!

 

[Licaon_Kter]

I've heard this theory floated that Oblivion succumbed to this trend - that Bethesda dumbed down the game to make it more accesible for console gamers.

I don't know that it was done as a means to make it more accessible for console gamers as opposed to simply being a case of developers not knowing any better or being willing to put the effort in to make something decent but I agree it was dumbed down.

Oblivion is a sword-and-sorcery-epic-role-playing-game, you know, the thing you see in Lord of the Rings or stuff like that and at it's heart, you know it is... this run through dungeons and kill things game... and all these features and it's all kind of ... there're so many things you'll get attach to... but at it's heart it's run through dungeons and kill creatures and take good stuff and buy bigger weapons and kill bigger creatures, and thats kind of layered in on top of this, wow look at these flowers, can i pick that? you know, it's almost two things sitting on top of each other, here's that game and then here's the virtual world.

how can one expect more from a guy that says this?

 

[Nog Robbin]

As an RPG Oblivion is seriosuly dumbed down. Everything is constantly in your face - pop up reminders being one of the worst "I'm here - now I should...", "I've done... now I should", "I've crapped my pants, no I should wipe". Ok - so the last one wasn't actually in the game, but you get the point. The idea of being able to top guilds at level 1 is ludicrous. The NPC interaction is laughable - and all the more so after the hype of radiant AI. I guess Bethesda use a new dictionary definition of radiant. And AI for that matter. The land is bigger, but I would hardly say more varied (though a lot of it is better than the dull grey of the Ashlands, but then that was the environment). The levelling is great as a game feature, but crap as an RPG feature - RPG should be more about beating challenges and getting rewards - if the challenge stays the same and the reward is levelled to suit what's the point?
The quests are simple, with (if possible) even less choice than in MW. The dialogue may be voiced but is seriously reduced. The persuasion mini game is a joke. The lock picking is hardly character skill based at all.
The magic system I don't feel is improved - you can't fail casting a spell, so can't try things beyond your ability and get lucky (or die trying). Enchanting is crap now (alright, it needed balancing in MW and being made more a mage perk, but this incarnation is utter tripe). The weapons have been grouped and simplified so you really don't have to think when picking up a weapon (I seriously believe the next version will have one "weapon" skill - and it will allow you to use any weapon.).
The alchemy, from my experience, is slightly better - but not right. It's nice that now you don't see what a potion would be if you don't know what the ingredients do - but it's crap that you can't try to make something and get a potion with unknown effects (if you're lucky enough to make a potion at all).
In fact, the whole "can't fail" thing (enchantments always work, spells always work, potions always succeed") shows how dumbed down the game is. The chance of failure has been pretty much removed. I guess that annoyed people?

It is a shame the game has sold so well - because others will try to immitate it for success rather than producing some genuine RPG goodness.

 

[The_Pope]

Oblivion wasn't dumbed down for consoles, it was dumbed down for Desslock.

 

[VenomByte]

Oblivion wasn't dumbed down.... it was just made so uber-complex and deep that it went right off the top of the scale of complexity and looped back around to impossible depths of moronic streamlining.

 

[Balor]

Too much Pratchett for the night is bad for you mental health, Venom .