NWN2 sidesteps from DnD

[St. Toxic]

Maybe they could balance it by making enemies respawn at an equal rate to your party's recovery.

shouting "Timmy sends his regards!" to the main villain in the pre-battle dialogue

What, you guys don't do that? I shout "Timmy sends his regards" a minimum, hell, thousand times a day -- I answer the phone shouting "Timme sends his regards". Even at my fathers funeral, I slipped in a good deal of "Timmy sends his regards", not to mention my speech consisting of nothing "Timmy sends his regards" repeated in different pitches of voice, evendoh I ended it with "sdrager sih sdnes ymmiT" after which the crowd just went fucking wild. Lemme' tell ya.

 

[Norfleet]

Maybe they could balance it by making enemies respawn at an equal rate to your party's recovery.

How is THAT balanced? Giving players an unlimited supply of enemies to pummel for XP is balanced?

 

[St. Toxic]

Don't ask me, it's a NEXT GEN thing. MMO mechanics coming back to haunt the singleplayer games. 10 to 1 says they might do it, eh.

 

[Surgey]

For the most part, people like overpowered PrCs. They like having things made easy. They like hitting 20th level.

I dunno about anyone else, but I hate hitting 20th level in pen and paper (if it ever happens). The only way I would like being 20th level is if I liked counting numbers, because that's all Epic is; numbers. Also, over-powered prestige classes? I just like for my Prestige Classes to not suck balls; if Prestige Classes aren't a lot better than the basic classes, what is the point of going to one? They can have some hefty pre-requisites, and the harder they are, the better the class should be. Champion of Torm? Don't you mean a Cleric with less spells? Why play Champion of Torm when I can just be a Paladin or Cleric? The only good prestige class for a fighter in NWN was the Weapon Master, and the ones for Divine casters were blah.

They didn't even have the Archmage or Heirophant! Prestige Classes are supposed to be cool. Hence the name, "Prestige" Class. Trust me, in the "Complete" books for D&D, there are tons of crappy Prestige Classes no one will go to. The ones he says are "overpowered" are probably just ones that don't suck. He's acting like being able to do damage is a big overpowered thing. It's MMO syndrome or something. What if you want to kill something before it kills you?

I'd like to see some of the extra basic classes like the Favored Soul and Swashbuckler, though. They are adding the Warlock, if I remember correctly, and that's a step in the right direction, methinks. Crappy class at low levels, of course, but great at higher ones. Plus, I wouldn't mind being a Duskblade.

 

[Voss]

You mean the completely fucking broken duskblade? Well, your credibility just went to straight to hell.

PrCs are supposed to be flavorful. With maybe a slight edge (or different edge) over a core class. It shouldn't be a no-brainer decision to go into any prestige class.

And no- hefty pre-reqs aren't a reason to overpower the PrC. You still have to balance the abilities with characters of the same level.

Bad braindead munchkin!

 

[HotSnack]

Champion of Torm? Don't you mean a Cleric with less spells? Why play Champion of Torm when I can just be a Paladin or Cleric? The only good prestige class for a fighter in NWN was the Weapon Master, and the ones for Divine casters were blah.

Champion of Torm is sick. It gets fighter styled bonus feats, bonus saving throws, paladin-like abilities (not to mention a far less restrictive alignment requirement) as well as it's own unique buff which gives you a +3 bonus.

 

[crufty]

I think the customary consequence of TPK is that you lose and the game is over.

One hopes. Hopefully it's moddable. At an abtract level NWN is twisting the scale: you are in effect getting more hitpoints and weaker monsters to counteract the static storylines (and thus eliminating roguelike permadeath as an option). I'm guessing the pc's are integral to the story somehow--like final fantasy, how they pop back into the storyline no matter how f'd up they are. It's better then the stone of recall bs.

This scheme worked out well in Rebelstar Tactical Command...there were plenty of tense moments when my last dude was barely eeking out a victory. It makes the game more playable, if less hard core.

In counterpoint, the goldbox games had a lot of f'in saving and reloading. But, there were times when the loot and difficulty of battle meant a) I could afford to resurrect and b) refighting it wasn't worth it. And sometimes if I got a bad PC build at a low level, it was just easier to create a new pc from scratch.

 

[AlanC9]

I think the customary consequence of TPK is that you lose and the game is over.

One hopes. Hopefully it's moddable.

I actually see a way to do permadeath in NWN2, like ToEE hardcore. When the party dies, set a variable in the campaign database. On reload, check for the variable, and abort the load if it's set. A player could get around it by editing the database himself, but it's close enough. You'd need a second variable to see if the player is reloading from the beginning, but it could work.

 

[Binary]

Champion of Torm? Don't you mean a Cleric with less spells? Why play Champion of Torm when I can just be a Paladin or Cleric? The only good prestige class for a fighter in NWN was the Weapon Master, and the ones for Divine casters were blah.

Champion of Torm is sick. It gets fighter styled bonus feats, bonus saving throws, paladin-like abilities (not to mention a far less restrictive alignment requirement) as well as it's own unique buff which gives you a +3 bonus.

Still not the sime fighter-style bonus feats. And no Weapon Specialization.

Champion of Torm was nice but only if balanced properly. I remember a build CoT/Monk/Cleric, dual wielding Kamas, with excellent saves, and heaps of attacks per round.

 

[HotSnack]

Still not the sime fighter-style bonus feats. And no Weapon Specialization.

Champion of Torm was nice but only if balanced properly. I remember a build CoT/Monk/Cleric, dual wielding Kamas, with excellent saves, and heaps of attacks per round.

Not the same how? To my memory there is no feat a CoT can't take that a fighter can barring weapon spec, and I find weapon spec to be a minor loss compared to everything else CoT gets. Why would someone make a straight lvl 20 fighter when they can do a 10 fighter/10 CoT instead? CoT isn't just a fighter with a holy flavour added to it, it's a fighter++.

 

[Binary]

Still not the sime fighter-style bonus feats. And no Weapon Specialization.

Champion of Torm was nice but only if balanced properly. I remember a build CoT/Monk/Cleric, dual wielding Kamas, with excellent saves, and heaps of attacks per round.

Not the same how? To my memory there is no feat a CoT can't take that a fighter can barring weapon spec, and I find weapon spec to be a minor loss compared to everything else CoT gets. Why would someone make a straight lvl 20 fighter when they can do a 10 fighter/10 CoT instead? CoT isn't just a fighter with a holy flavour added to it, it's a fighter++.

1) Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Specialization
2) Extra feat on lvl 1
3) 10F/10CoT is potentially a "waste" of a class (remember you can only choose 3 classes per char on NWN)
4) If you're not playing the Charisma warrior, I'd take the 20F (for the extra feat) than the +5 to saves
5) After 20F, you get one extra feat every 2 levels for every F level taken. With a 10F/10T, you don't get extra feats in the next 10 levels at least.

So most of the cases (basically when you want a tank):

20F > 10F/10CoT

 

[HotSnack]

1) Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Specialization

You don't need to be an "epic" fighter in order to take GWS, you can do it as a non epic fighter but with your char lvl 20+.

2) Extra feat on lvl 1

A similar point to number 4, so I'll write about it there.

3) 10F/10CoT is potentially a "waste" of a class (remember you can only choose 3 classes per char on NWN)

It certainly isn't a "waste" if you were only planning to play a straight fighter anyway.

4) If you're not playing the Charisma warrior, I'd take the 20F (for the extra feat) than the +5 to saves

I might agree if that single feat meant all the difference from having something like say, whirlwind attack and not having it, but since you are a fighter anyway you'll have plenty of opportunities for nabbing something like that. Also here is something to consider; the iron will feat gives a +2 to your will saves, the luck of heroes feat gives a +1 to all saves, CoT gets a +5 to all saves in place of an extra feat. That's 5 luck of heroes feats put together or 7-8 iron will feats and it's similiar variants put together in order to compare with CoT's - and we're still ignoring CoT's other abilities.

5) After 20F, you get one extra feat every 2 levels for every F level taken. With a 10F/10T, you don't get extra feats in the next 10 levels at least.

I don't quite get what you're getting at here. A 10F/10T who goes back to taking fighter levels still gets his extra feat bonus, and if you instead become an epic CoT you gain a bonus feat every 3 levels (on top of increasing saves and buff ability), so what's this about missing bonus feats?

 

[Binary]

1) Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Specialization

You don't need to be an "epic" fighter in order to take GWS, you can do it as a non epic fighter but with your char lvl 20+.

If you're getting Fighter AND CoT, you're reverting to 3) below all the time

3) 10F/10CoT is potentially a "waste" of a class (remember you can only choose 3 classes per char on NWN)

It certainly isn't a "waste" if you were only planning to play a straight fighter anyway.

If you play a straight fighter in NWN then you don't know how to make a build. To make this even more extreme, a non Charisma 30F/10WM > 20F/10CoT/10WM

4) If you're not playing the Charisma warrior, I'd take the 20F (for the extra feat) than the +5 to saves

I might agree if that single feat meant all the difference from having something like say, whirlwind attack and not having it, but since you are a fighter anyway you'll have plenty of opportunities for nabbing something like that. Also here is something to consider; the iron will feat gives a +2 to your will saves, the luck of heroes feat gives a +1 to all saves, CoT gets a +5 to all saves in place of an extra feat. That's 5 luck of heroes feats put together or 7-8 iron will feats and it's similiar variants put together in order to compare with CoT's - and we're still ignoring CoT's other abilities.

OK here we could get into a discussion whether the PW you play has plenty of eq with bonus feats and/or equiment with bonuses to saves. Still, on a direct comparison, I'd rather take one more feat than +5 to saves. Oh, you may even consider that for several builds you might have to get your "normal" feat after level 20, so this extra feat could eventually be a Great Str VIII or something as important.

5) After 20F, you get one extra feat every 2 levels for every F level taken. With a 10F/10T, you don't get extra feats in the next 10 levels at least.

I don't quite get what you're getting at here. A 10F/10T who goes back to taking fighter levels still gets his extra feat bonus, and if you instead become an epic CoT you gain a bonus feat every 3 levels (on top of increasing saves and buff ability), so what's this about missing bonus feats?

Epic Fighter gets bonus feats every 2 levels. Epic CoT gets a bonus feat every 4 levels, not 3. Don't trust everything you read on the manual. Did you actually PLAY the game?!

CoT was everything but unbalancing. You need more proof? Look at the builds made by guys like Torias and Cdaulepp and see if any uses CoT. It's a nice class, but nothing to write home about.

Monks dual wielding kamas, now THAT was unbalanced...

 

[Spazmo]

What the hell is so hot about kamas? You're way better off just using your fists since you get the same number of attacks but with much better damage (at level 20, your fists are doing I think 2d10 damage or 1d20 in 3.0 versus 1d4 or 1d6 for a kama). Unless, of course, NWN also skullfucked this. What did they do with kamas?

 

[Binary]

What the hell is so hot about kamas? You're way better off just using your fists since you get the same number of attacks but with much better damage (at level 20, your fists are doing I think 2d10 damage or 1d20 in 3.0 versus 1d4 or 1d6 for a kama). Unless, of course, NWN also skullfucked this. What did they do with kamas?

On NWN, a Monk using fists is considered as having a single weapon. By dual wielding Kamas, the monk gets the nifty unarmed progression AND the extra two offhand attacks.

Ally that with some Cleric spells (Divine Favor? etc) and you can picture of kind of powerhouse the kama dual wielding monk is!

 

[Spazmo]

Oh, so it's not that NWN broke kamas so much as it broke flurry of blows, which is basically supposed to be two weapon fighting with fists.

 

[Binary]

Oh, so it's not that NWN broke kamas so much as it broke flurry of blows, which is basically supposed to be two weapon fighting with fists.

IIRC, in NWN, flurry of blows was simply an extra attack, whether using just hands or kamas (all attacks were at a -2 penalty tho)

"Fortunately", NWN capped the number of attacks per round at 10...

 

[Spazmo]

Ah, yes, you're right. It's in 3.5E that they fixed flurry so it gives you additional additional attacks and competes better with the TWF feat chain.

 

[Surgey]

You mean the completely fucking broken duskblade? Well, your credibility just went to straight to hell.

Explain why it's broken. Being able to do a few extra dice of damage at the cost of HP and having a decent AC because you can wear armor? You're right, that's totally broken! What was I thinking, trying to wear armor and use about 3 arcane spells, of all things! Please. A rogue can do more damage than one. And let's not forget the amount of abilities you need to be a decent Duskblade. Strength to hit, possibly a Dex for better AC, Intelligence for spells, Con for concentration and HP, of course. The other two you might be able to not have decent scores in. Except Charisma, if you want to be able to Use Magic Device better.

And I'm sorry, but I'd like Prestige Classes to be just a LITTLE bit more powerful than a character of equal level. For God's sake, they have pre-reqs that can be just downright rediculous. Weapon Master, for example. Whirlwind Attack. I can understand that, okay? But Intimidate? What?! That's not even a class skill for Fighters. And what, are Weapon Masters so good at fighting they are intimidating or what? Although, to agree with you somewhat, sometimes they feel like hefty pre-reqs are grounds for a super wrong PrC... but that's rarely.

And I like my Prestige Classes to actually be able to do some useful things. The problem with lots of prestige classes is that they're way too focused. Green Star Adept? What? I mean, I'm not saying not doing damage sucks, but some of them are just stupid. Allow me to give the example Wild Mage. So it permanently lowers your caster level by 3, right? They get a couple other things, but this is the main thing. You roll a 1d6, and you add that to your caster level. On average, you'll get equal to normal, or +1. And then sometimes you'll get lower or higher. I really don't see the reason for this, unless you just really want to do that concept.

I'm not saying all the prestige classes are stupid. I'm just saying a lot of them are. Some of their concepts are stupid, and some of the abilities are just stupid.

Ah, yes, you're right. It's in 3.5E that they fixed flurry so it gives you additional additional attacks and competes better with the TWF feat chain.

You can still two-weapon fight and flurry, still. It's in the official FAQ. And there's nothing to stop you from two-"weapon" fighting with your bare hands. Quite cool, actually. But yeah, basically Flurry is to allow Monks to compete with Fighters in their number of attacks at the same level.

 

[Blacklung]

I actually thought that the Soul Reaver/Legacy of Kain series had a pretty interesting twist to "dying." If you got killed in the real world you were sent to the dead plane and had to fight like a bastard to make it to the next portal without dying again. Sure you could just reload (though at a save point) but there was also a reason to play well and see if you could get back in. You were punished, but not pampered or destroyed.

I also liked BG's handling of death, allowing you to bring back characters at a temple or use a spell, and then have to re-equip and sometimes lose an item (or maybe I forgot to get it?). So you actually had a fairly good punishment, or reason to reload. You could soldier on until revival, or you could reload and force yourself to think of a better strategy to win the fight. I can think of tons of great battles where I'd die and reload a few times, and finally come up with a perfect strategy which allowed me to utterly mop the floor with my enemies. Icewind Dale 2 was a cinche after taking out the illithid lair without dying.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

I really dug the original Soul Reaver. Likely the best voice acting I've heard, cool abilities and bosses/characters. A nice emphasis on story, although from reading online the original Legacy of Kain seems to deserve more credit for the series. I downloaded a warez version of that but never got it to work. I suppose I could try to find the Playstation version, but I still haven't even saved a game on Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (I even bought an old memory pack, which I may have misplaced). At one time I planned on buying Defiance, but never got around to it and don't really regret it. In no way, shape or form RPGs though, in my opinion.

 

[Human Shield]

I really dug the original Soul Reaver. Likely the best voice acting I've heard, cool abilities and bosses/characters. A nice emphasis on story, although from reading online the original Legacy of Kain seems to deserve more credit for the series. I downloaded a warez version of that but never got it to work. I suppose I could try to find the Playstation version, but I still haven't even saved a game on Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (I even bought an old memory pack, which I may have misplaced). At one time I planned on buying Defiance, but never got around to it and don't really regret it. In no way, shape or form RPGs though, in my opinion.

Get a Playstation 1 emulator and download the ISO files (you can also run off CD drive if you have the game). But I really love save-anytime savestates, and with a good PC the graphics can be better then a PS1. Vagrant Story is a pretty sweet dungeon crawler also, and also Parasite Eve 1.

 

[Norfleet]

And I like my Prestige Classes to actually be able to do some useful things. The problem with lots of prestige classes is that they're way too focused. Green Star Adept? What? I mean, I'm not saying not doing damage sucks, but some of them are just stupid. Allow me to give the example Wild Mage. So it permanently lowers your caster level by 3, right? They get a couple other things, but this is the main thing. You roll a 1d6, and you add that to your caster level. On average, you'll get equal to normal, or +1. And then sometimes you'll get lower or higher. I really don't see the reason for this, unless you just really want to do that concept.

Hey, the Wild Mage dates all the way back to the Tome of Magic from 2nd edition, and while not really "better" per-se than the regular mage, it let you cause all sorts of crazy, whacked-out shit to happen, which could be good, or not-so-good. It's not for EVERYONE, but some people LIKE causing mass anarchy, like turning half the enemies and half their party members, not to mention themselves, into watermelons when they try to cast magic missile. There was even a special spell specifically for just causing crazy shit to happen at random. Think of it like recklessly discharging a Wand of Wonder while blindfolded.

The point of the class is the ability to turn someone into a watermelon at level 1, something you would otherwise have to wait many levels for. Granted, you probably won't have any CONTROL over WHO turns into a watermelon, but that's not the point! The point is that wild mages truly terrify people when they start casting spells. Can anyone say they're honestly terrified when a regular mage casts a spell, given that a predictable outcome invariably ensues, as opposed to when someone is about to do something that no one can predict the outcome of? Wild mages: The class of people who have the urge to play a ticking time bomb liable to go off at any moment, the consequences of which can never be predicted in the slightest. It's even better in a video game, because the sheer shits and giggles of it in such a setting make it worth it.

 

[Surgey]

Well, indeed. That's why I mentioned "unless you really want that concept," ala the concept that your magic goes insane and tends to do random things. I think it's a neat thing. I considered doing it if I was a magic-user, because of the general lack of super-good arcane prestige classes besides the archmage. Still, anything that's +1 caster level every level is usually a decent prestige class, even if it doesn't have anything uber. So the Wild Mage is good in that respect.

And yeah, they still have that. They can choose to make their spells act like a Rod of Wonder (which has like 20 different functions, some of which just cause a huge display of colors, and another which causes you to summon feathers or something) for a certain bonus that I can't remember.

Edit: Also, I think the Wild Mage can be reached before level 5 or 6, making it one of the earliest prestige classes. I think it requires the feat Combat Casting, a very terrible feat, but it's a pre-req, then the ability to cast level 3 spells or so.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

What system does NWN run on?
I got a 3.5 players handbook when it came out, but never got to play.