Game News NWN2 screens extravaganza

[Shagnak]

From the screenshots, NWN2's landscape elevations look more convincing and less 'marbles under a blanket' than Morrowind's.

marbles under a blanket - interesting analogy

As for more convincing in NWN2...oh I don't know...
If they're doing a similar way of doing things in Oblivion as they did in Morrowind, all I can say is that Oblivion's landscapes look pretty good to me so far. And Morrowind was capable of producing a variety of pretty convincing landscapes too.
I'll reserve final judgement until I have a better idea of NWN2. I agree that so far its looking good and way less pre-fabbed (as you put it) than its predecessor; atleast as far as I can tell from the shitty screenshots.

 

[Twinfalls]

Actually, you're right. Oblivion does look impressive. However, when it came to Morrowind, it wasn't so much the environments (though landscape elevations were very ordinary - compared with for example Gothic 1), but the overall feeling of clunkiness I think came from the way everything (dialogue, NPC paths, building placement) was cobbled together with the CS without much variety.....

 

[Mordaedil]

I sense a lot of tension on these boards... Being a regular on the Biosidian Boards, I can try to give you an insight into how the game will be:

1. Normal Mapping technology will be used. The models on average begin at 300 000 poly's and are scaled to 3000 poly's. This means less rendering time for your PC, for increased appearance. The Witcher will not be using this technology. The amazing features of this technology is that it allows you to have much higher details to creatures than what it first appears to be. From the looks of it, Obsidian are really good at utilizing this technology, so you will get amazingly detailed faces this time around.

2. Heightmapped outdoor-areas. This is what causes these rolling hills you see. The same technology is used in Unreal Tournament 2004, for the Onslaught maps. If you have played Onslaught, you will get what scale we are talking about here, and how awesome this stuff can look.

3. The Aurora Engine is no more. All that remains of the old code from Bioware is the server application and the Scripting system. And even this has been changed to some degree. Rejoice.

4. Gothic III, Oblivion, NWN2 and the Witcher are probably all going to be games that are must-buy. To be honest, I feel NWN2 has the longest longevity however. This is due to the mod-ability for that game, as well as it's multiplayer support. Assuming they can uphold the patch-support(in fixing out bugs, not amount of patches) that Bioware had, you have a game that should be number one of the other games.

This is my oppinion, and what I know. If you know your RPG's, you know what games to buy. Don't let ME convince you, by all means.

5. NWN2 will have a super OC. That's right, you heard me. The game will kick ass. I know this from three factors. Number one, I've seen some of what they have in store for the game. Number two, the story in KotOR2 was thrilling and exciteful, a real awesome ride, despite the game's bugs. Number three, I've talked to the guys making this mess, personally on multiple occations. They seem like good people for this stuff.

And there you have it, my little list of knowledge from NWN2 boards. I can also fill in more tuff, but then I'd be ripping off Rhomal's FAQ. And he'd beat me like a silly rabbit...

And Rhomal is a mean drunk.

 

[Eclecticist]

While Morrowind's graphics were fine, they were not utilised at all convincingly to create an immersive world. Everything felt so "chunk-chunk" - it really lacked the originality or "genuine" feeling of the Gothics. You know, that feeling you get when you feel like you're in a magical world filled with adventure, not a world made in a map-making program with random shit everywhere.

 

[SorelissLarethian]

ah .. i feel sorry that i was turned down from obsidian to work with them Excuse me for saying so but those screens didn't look like nwn style and quality to me. They look early indeed . I'm looking forward to seeing the latest screens with more oomph than what we saw in these scans. I know someone who works there and judging from his quality of artwork i'm sure the game will look much better than this.

 

[kris]

I look forward to know they had improved the gameplay and general mechanics for the game. Graphics can be whatever as long as it does not go under "horrible" and for me that is not dealt out easily.

 

[Atrokkus]

xcuse me for saying so but those screens didn't look like nwn style and quality to me.

WHAT style and quality are you talking about? Art department in NWN1 was mediocre at best. Landscape was trash, repetitive, terraced, angly trash. Models were pretty good though, but still lacked variety (although mods did fix that). The only thing I liked was Aribeth's wallpapers, concepts.

NWN2 looks much more promising, with Obisidian's team addressing the issues of NWN1 and successfully fixing them - biggest of which was terraced landscape.

 

[Sarvis]

Landscape was trash, repetitive, terraced, angly trash.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the artists for the game.

 

[Atrokkus]

Well, I'm not accusing the artists. I know that most of the art-crew was involved with Baldur's Gate, art of which I worship. I'm talking about graphics in general, the result, what the player sees.

 

[Pr()ZaC]

Do YOU still care about the graphics?

 

[Sarvis]

Well, I'm not accusing the artists. I know that most of the art-crew was involved with Baldur's Gate, art of which I worship. I'm talking about graphics in general, the result, what the player sees.

Then you probably shouldn't have leveled your accusation at the <i>art department</i>.

Yeah, in general the graphics are not very good... but since when have graphics mattered for an RPG anyway?

 

[SorelissLarethian]

graphics do not make a good game (and this comes from the mouth of an artist), and NDS proves that with every great game released.BUT graphics and sound will complement the storyline and characters and will make or break immersion which in my book is the 1st and most important part of a rpg.

i play rpgs to be immersed in a different world. don't you? unless rpgs are about reading text and i live on a different planet.what would the D&D universe be without those amazing illustrations that inspired all of us over the years?

Given that aurora was 5 years old when the game came out and how many times technological standards changed for that game the graphics were really impressive.

between bad graphics and no graphics i take no graphics.
These graphics are not bad at all. They are nice and all; what i meant was they are not polished yet, they have not reached today's standards.

From a team with such talent as obsidian we all expect nothing but the very best.And I'm sure we'll get it in the end.

 

[LlamaGod]

if you need graphics to immerse you, you are a horrible person.

also: if you use graphics as immersion tools, you are a horrible person.

 

[SorelissLarethian]

let's not forget sound!!! :D

oh darn I shouldn't have said that now .. should I?

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

i play rpgs to be immersed in a different world. don't you? unless rpgs are about reading text and i live on a different planet.

Yes, you do. Garrblenoddlesouse.

what would the D&D universe be without those amazing illustrations that inspired all of us over the years?

So blind people can't enjoy D&D, huh, huh? They have words for people like you, one of them is "bigot" and another is "poopypants".

 

[truekaiser]

Gothic III is going to kick graphical ass.

I'm not a graphic whore or anything, but holy fucking shit that looks sweet. That's the kind of stuff they put on the cover of NVIDIA video card boxes.

Come to think of it, how could NWN compete with such a beautiful game like Gothic that is built on past roleplaying games that were very deep? NWN2 has the shitty NWN behind it.

sorry to go off topic but i have a nvidia box(geforce 4 ti 4600) that has a picture of a non-existent scene in morrowind as box candy.

edit:
i will be geting nwn2 if they continue to support the linux comunity by giveing them a client and activly supporting it.

 

[kris]

1.Graphics do not make a good game (and this comes from the mouth of an artist), and NDS proves that with every great game released.BUT graphics and sound will complement the storyline and characters and will make or break immersion which in my book is the 1st and most important part of a rpg.

2. i play rpgs to be immersed in a different world. don't you?

3. unless rpgs are about reading text and i live on a different planet.

4. what would the D&D universe be without those amazing illustrations that inspired all of us over the years?

5. Given that aurora was 5 years old when the game came out and how many times technological standards changed for that game the graphics were really impressive.

1. Computer or PnP? Anyway in a PnP the immersement was mostly in the mind of the player, while the GM are to help it is up to the players to visualise things in their head. when it comes to a computer game it is different, but more than graphical überness it was about how the world was presented in a viable way and that things there made sense. i.e. Having the cave bear live in a cave.

2. Partly, I would say it is more about playing a RPG to immerse myself in another life.

3. Just coming up with a number I would say, yes 90% of a RPG is what you describe as text. It is about what you do and what happens from your actions that is a RPG, not what you see. What you see is only a framework.

4. That is up to you. As I said, immersion is in YOUR head. The D&D world you see may be very different from what another person see.

5. Personally I did not found them impressive, but apart from elevation and the treeroof missing I did hardly care at all.

 

[SorelissLarethian]

this is a "huge debate”. To answer your first question,
We are talking about CRPGs.

It eventually boils down to " The D&D world you see may be very different from what another person see." not.

Talking about CRPGs the world you see is unfortunately exactly what the other person sees. This is a given whether we like it or not.
But even on PnP your quest is set on a certain story, certain location so you can play with others. Yes your imagination (or rather the DM's) becomes a primary element in PnP but there are still limits on what you can do. Unless you like freestyle like me which is fun even when it gets a bit chaotic


With the advancement of AI and the advancements on real time graphics acting will get into play. hopefully in the future you will address a question to the NPC and he will talk back but since this is not yet possible we will still have to click on the dialogue and read his answer. The way I see it reading text is a limitation not a feature.


"What you see is only a framework."
I beg to differ. In a crpg all you experience is what you see and what you hear. A good story will excite your imagination or in the opposite case will make a world look like an empty shell .If I want to read text I’d rather read a good book.

What you see and hear ( in a CRPG) IS what you experience and less what you have to read. I call reading in CRPGs a technicality. unless the game refers to certain parts of a book as a gameplay element or you're reading subtitles.

different life different world.. same difference.
Life is all about experience, in a different world you have different experiences and eventually a different life.

"Personally I did not found them impressive"
I repeat, given the old and limiting technology they used when they were making the game I was impressed with the result. As someone who has worked for games and vfx my criteria are different from those of one who's simply a gamer or a movie enthusiast. More surprisingly so the guys doing witcher have done a great job on the visual part as many have already said. I look forward to playing witcher. But remember witcher is a Single player game.

 

[Atrokkus]

but since when have graphics mattered for an RPG anyway?

No, they never mattered much. I enjoy text games, I enjoy reading -- no graphics there. Plus, I don't really shun playing games with petty graphics, as long as the essential elements are okay.
But since someone brought it up, I decided to point out that NWN1's graphics were poor, despite the engine's potential, that's all.

 

[kris]

1. It eventually boils down to " The D&D world you see may be very different from what another person see." not.

2. Talking about CRPGs the world you see is unfortunately exactly what the other person sees. This is a given whether we like it or not.

3. But even on PnP your quest is set on a certain story, certain location so you can play with others. Yes your imagination (or rather the DM's) becomes a primary element in PnP but there are still limits on what you can do. Unless you like freestyle like me which is fun even when it gets a bit chaotic

4. With the advancement of AI and the advancements on real time graphics acting will get into play.

5. hopefully in the future you will address a question to the NPC and he will talk back but since this is not yet possible we will still have to click on the dialogue and read his answer.

6. The way I see it reading text is a limitation not a feature.

7. I beg to differ. In a crpg all you experience is what you see and what you hear. A good story will excite your imagination or in the opposite case will make a world look like an empty shell .If I want to read text I’d rather read a good book.

8. What you see and hear ( in a CRPG) IS what you experience and less what you have to read. I call reading in CRPGs a technicality. unless the game refers to certain parts of a book as a gameplay element or you're reading subtitles.

9. different life different world.. same difference.
Life is all about experience, in a different world you have different experiences and eventually a different life.

1. Oh, but it will even in a computer game. Pure graphical exellence is still the smaller part of the immersion.

2. Your wrong. Or else explain how some people can say that the world in Morrowind was full of life and engaging while I found it lifeless and boring after playing for a couple of minutes. We all see different things and make out what we want from it.

3. Of course there are some limits, but how does that disprove what I said?

4. Facial expressions and tone of voice we have and that can be improved. Real time acting as you call it is way way into the future.

5. This is possible, but only in a limited fashion where he can answer a few questions. Basically it would only force them to make the game smaller and have less things. I rather take 10 great NPC with a lot of text than 2 NPC that answer written questions of even voice recognition.

6. It is the most effective way of presenting a story or presenting info.

7. ? What? Are you on drugs? You seems to try to say that a good story and reading text are two different things. I don't get you here. A good story is almost exclusivly presented by text or in most new games voiced text. You don't read a book because you want to be part of the story and moreso you want to be the one creating the story by the actions in the game.

8. Here you say it a bit better. But still, voiced text is still text. Personally I don't like that they nowadays want all text voiced as that only is a limitation on the game. It makes it shorter, smaller and less fleshed out. What you see as in regarding the presentation of a story is much more about how it is presented than graphical exellence.

9. Basic philosophical musings don't impress me.

 

[SorelissLarethian]

We can't continue this conversation since I as an insider and you (I presume) a gamer see things very differently. You don't seem to want to try to think things differently since what you mostly do with your replies is trying to be "smart" to put it politely.

When you understand that text is simply a medium to convey atmosphere and images to people who are not in your immediate vicinity we can continue talking about this. As for text selling more than images and sound, the decline of book sales and the domination of cinema and video games covers my position completely.

People are not interested about the words themselves but rather what they express.

Text is the written word in case you do not understand completely the meaning of the word, and modern games try to minimize text to merely subtitling and try to present the story in a more cinematic way, with sound and images.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=text

A story is not the printed text like a painting is not the acrylic (or whatever kind) paint that was used to draw it.

If images and sound are not that important then we should probably still work in DOS and the internet should be only text like it was many years ago. Virtual reality should not be a holy grail for gamers. Further more if text is the most important thing we should keep sending letters to each other instead of using the telephone or videophone and so on.

Also the very well known saying that goes like "A picture says a thousand words" can put this debate to sleep.

Last but not least with my posts I don't try to impress you, unless you were a beautiful Swedish girl :D I simply try to present to you a different point of view. Whether you take the hint or choose to ignore it it's completely up to you. Internet often gives people a false sense of importance and accomplishment.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Virtual reality should not be a holy grail for gamers. Further more if text is the most important thing we should keep sending letters to each other instead of using the telephone or videophone and so on.

Also the very well known saying that goes like "A picture says a thousand words" can put this debate to sleep.

You're right. Virtual reality SHOULD NOT be the holy grail. And I don't know anyone who uses a videophone. Talking is usually easier than writing, but e-mails and text messages are pretty popular, in case you didn't know.

Maybe I DON'T think a picture is worth a thousand words. Maybe I've got lousy eyesight (alright, not maybe, certainly) and I don't feel like pixel-hunting. Infocom used to say "If a picture is worth a thousand words, we'll give you the thousand words". I want the thousand words.

 

[SorelissLarethian]

I don't think discussing the sociopathological reasons (and of course obvious bandwidth, economic, and storage reasons for the preference of email instead of voicemail) why people prefer to send an sms instead of calling in person or using voice messages and videophone would be a nice thing to do in these forums :D

also
a nice article.
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051 ... d_01.shtml


cheers

P.S: did you just used an image to convey your message???

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

P.S: did you just used an image to convey your message???

I used text. ZING!
But seriously, I originally created that for tintin to put in his gallery of fools pic. I've got a higher post-count than truekaiser so OBVIOUSLY I deserve to be in it more than him. I guess I need to work harder at being a dick.

 

[Twinfalls]

2cents:

I think the view to adopt is one of balance. Just as adventure game writers in the 80s recognised that some graphics can add to their text-based worlds, the big fantasy game publishers nowadays ought to recognise that some text can enhance the graphics-based worlds they have created. In fact, graphics has liberated text from its mundane purpose of having to simply convey what's around the player, into the possibilities of the kinds of atmosphere enhancement that only text can add.

I'd love to see a return, in big-budget games, to some written prose descriptions accompanying the graphics.

Graphics can never replace the power of the imagination to construct imagery. Which is why novels will never die.

No matter how high-fidelity graphics get, a fantasy game will always benefit from some good narrative text. Text can not replace graphics, and vice versa. The glib line 'a picture is worth a thousand words' really only applies to visual evidence over oral, and nowadays with photoshopping, doesn't apply at all really.