Not allowing the PCs to be spellcasters

[Haba]

I think that making magic so easily available ends up cheapening it, making it less impressive, mysterious and threatening than it would otherwise be.

In Aleshar: World of Ice, magic is banned and rogue magic users are hunted and killed.

You're never taught "how" to use magic, all you get is some basic control. The player has learn how to use it by himself.

And now, lets look at the fact that using magic is also very dangerous - unpracticed magic user will most certainly over-exhaust themselves and die of a heart attack. So when combining multiple elements, not only you have no clue on what it actually does but you also have to be wary of the consequences. I remember actually only using one of the most powerful spells only I met a powerful enough foe that I couldn't manage the encounter in any other way.

Wheel of Time pre-cleansing of Saidar kind of magic setting would be the best, IMHO. You get more and more powerful, yet each use diminishes your sanity more. In Aleshar the magic loses the magicky feeling once you grind your element control high enough to use it without breaking a sweat.

 

[Aldebaran]

ehm...You talking about Carsomyr?

Which you had to loot from a DRAGON?

Yes, that's what he meant. It sucks that this sword doesn't become obsolete throughout the whole game. That deprives you of the joy to regularily switch to a new weapon that does 2 damage more than the last one a la Dragon Age 2.

Yeah, in my opinion, Carsomyr was one of the best elements of BG2. It was one of the few weapons in a video game that never felt like you had just taken another step up on the spreadsheet. Even if you found a weapon with much higher damage, nothing ever came close to Carsomyr's ability to dispel on each hit.

In so many games you end up finding some ancient and powerful weapon, only to find another, and another, and another, each being just slightly more powerful than the last. Carsomyr broke this pattern to such an extent that your melee character ended up feeling like a new class--certainly not your run of the mill meatshield. He suddenly became "that guy" who got all the important buffs, "earned" all the best armour, and who you sent barrelling towards the biggest of bads.

Sure, you could ruin quite a few early encounters if you abused Firkraag's AI, but whose fault is that (aside from the computer people)?

 

[Relay]

ehm...You talking about Carsomyr?

Which you had to loot from a DRAGON?

BG2 didn't really make the dragon strong enough. Don't get me wrong, I love BG2 but it isn't that hard to kill the dragon with a low level party and get carsomyr in the earliest parts of the game. And while I took the uttermost extreme as an example it's clearly not the only one, BG2 is littered with powerful magical artifacts you can get clearing all the maps of the game. There are things that I consider shouldn't even exist, like Crom Faeyr, the hammer that gives you the maximum strength attribute, 25. Or a ring you get as soon as you get to the circus, the first quest of the game outside the first dungeon, that brings your charisma attribute to 18.
There are belt of strength that will put your strength to 18, 19, 20 or bigger, and if my memory isn't wrong they can be worn by any class.
There are gloves that will put your dexterity attribute to 18, and like all those items, it gives you the best score no matter how low your base stats are. So in theory if you're min-maxing, you can make a character with the lowest strength, dex, charisma stats and still use gear to get them as high as it would be if you had put all your points in them.

Yeah, in my opinion, Carsomyr was one of the best elements of BG2. It was one of the few weapons in a video game that never felt like you had just taken another step up on the spreadsheet. Even if you found a weapon with much higher damage, nothing ever came close to Carsomyr's ability to dispel on each hit.

In so many games you end up finding some ancient and powerful weapon, only to find another, and another, and another, each being just slightly more powerful than the last. Carsomyr broke this pattern to such an extent that your melee character ended up feeling like a new class--certainly not your run of the mill meatshield. He suddenly became "that guy" who got all the important buffs, "earned" all the best armour, and who you sent barrelling towards the biggest of bads.

Sure, you could ruin quite a few early encounters if you abused Firkraag's AI, but whose fault is that (aside from the computer people)?

Well I prefer spreadsheety games rather than games where you wield a single weapon from the beginning to the end. And no, there aren't "weapons with much higher damages", some may do a little bit more but NOTHING like much higher. You can get that sword so early in the game that you will never get to use another sword.
The only build that does more damage (but may be less efficient against wizards and clerics) is a dual wielder with Crom Faeyr in one hand and a weapon like the flail you build yourself in the other. But it is a bit more balanced as a build because you can only get crom faeyr once you get out of the underdark (to have all the components) so you would have to use average blunt weapons before you get it. And while I don't like the fact that Crom Faeyr even exists, at least they made it really hard to get it. It's not like carsomyr, you have to build it using components scattered everywhere. By the time you get it, you somewhat feel you truly earned it, unlike carso.

 

[Mystary!]

. The early fantasy novels, such as Conan or the Lankhmar series, did not have spellcasting heroes.

Wrong. Gray Mouser was a spell caster, even if he dual classed to thief at lvl 2...

 

[Gregz]

Magic is widely available to PCs in fantasy RPGs. In D&D, for instance, the classes who do not give magical ability are much less numerous than those who do : even paladins, rangers and bards - the concepts of which have nothing to do with magic - can cast spells.

I think that making magic so easily available ends up cheapening it, making it less impressive, mysterious and threatening than it would otherwise be.

In traditional stories (such as the arthurian legends or the 1001 nights), heroes were never spellcasters ; magic was limited to "NPCs", who could be benevolent or malevolent, but were always powerful and enigmatic. The early fantasy novels, such as Conan or the Lankhmar series, did not have spellcasting heroes. Even in LOTR, Gandalf is clearly apart from the rest of the Fellowship and he's not directly involved in the main quest for very long.

So, what would you think of a fantasy CRPG which would not allow the player to cast spells ? The closest example I can think of would be "The Witcher". While Gerard can use magical Signs, they're clearly limited and a far cry from real magic.

Hmm, this is an interesting point.

The Star Wars universe immediately comes to mind, one of the biggest problems with Star Wars MMOs is everyone wants to be a Jedi. In Star Wars, magic (the force) is very sparse and controlled by a very gifted few. It makes for a great narrative, but translates terribly into an RPG (unless you happen to be a Jedi).

The Dragonlance Novels (based around the DnD ruleset) took the approach you are suggesting and it worked very well (referring to the novels, not the game), magic was almost never seen. Raistlin had to sell his soul and wreck his body to be able to cast sleep spells, and for 300 years Krynn hadn't seen healing magic. The first novel's entire premise was based around trying to destroy Goldmoon and her staff because she was a 'true healer'. Everyone else in the party (like 6 people) had no access to magic of any kind (barring Fizban, who was really the god Paladine in disguise). Again however, you have the problem of everyone wanting to be Raistlin.

So, what would you think of a fantasy CRPG which would not allow the player to cast spells ?

Myself, I'm almost always wanting (forced) to play a spellsword. I say forced, because so many games these days are single player (no squad or party generation at game start). This is one of the many reasons games like Mass Effect don't sit well with me. I want to be able to 'directly' do the Sword&Sorcery thing, meaning cast spells as well as smash skulls. Thus, spellsword. This was never a problem with older games like Might & Magic that recognized players wanted to do both, and gave them a party system that was flexible enough so that you could go almost 100% magic, or 100% might depending on the party you created.

Personally, a single-actor RPG without the option to access magic (or technology sufficiently advanced that it seems magical) doesn't appeal to me.

 

[Gregz]

I think you might have misinterpreted Black Cat's idea.

It's not about making magic useless in combat. It's about requiring preparation, making it more situational (casting a spell in a dark cave might have different effects than doing it in a forest at midday) and requiring it to be given a lot more thought than just selecting spell X because it does Y amount of damage over Z amount of time.

Sure, you'd need ingredients. Sure, casting might take some time. Sure, spells might be dependent on the environment. But spellcasting would be so much more interesting, and not necessarily useless in combat. Use your warriors to protect the witch for 3 turns while she casts a spell that shatters the enemy morale so much they just drop down motionless in fear. The enemy will, of course, try to stop that witch in her ritual, but if you manage to defend her so she can successfully cast it, the results will be devastating and win the combat for you.

Much more interesting than "I CAST FIREBALL FOR 3d6 DAMAGE!!!"

Ultima VI was very much like this. You had to spend a lot of time travelling, waiting for the moon phases to align just perfectly to find those 3 mandrake roots or 2 nightshade.

Sadly, every time the thought crosses my mind "Hey, I haven't played Ultima VI in a while" I remember what a drag it was to have to circumnavigate the map several times just so I could cast a few spells. Result? I end up not replaying Ultima VI. I haven't played it in 15 years, because of this single issue. It's been done, I don't think making spell casting more tedious is the answer. I always liked the traditional DnD method: You want to play a pure caster? OK...but you'll be the weakest class for the 1st half of the game(pay your dues)...then be the most powerful in the 2nd half(reap the benefits of your hard work).

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I loved the spell casting systems of Ultima VII and VIII.

 

[Excidium]

@ Erebus

The problem isn't making magic available but making it cheap and abstract, I believe.

There isn't any problem with magic users being selectable. The problem is with magic being usually retarded and banal instead of being, say, magical and coherent. Or about it, like, being nothing but arbitrary gameplay design choices instead.

Exactly.

Magic should be rare and mysterious, but not just as being the privilege of a few, but also as a consequence of being dangerous to the caster. You could have a setting where everyone has access to spell casting but where magic is still amazing, since the average person wouldn't want to deal with the risks of throwing fireballs or ressurecting and would be restricted to "simple" things like a ritual of protection against evil eye or treating fever.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

magic use has been clarified, categorised and codified constantly from one fantasy crpg to the next so now we have a special contempt that comes with the familiarity of 'Level 3 - Fireball (Evocation) - 1D6 damage per level of spellcaster in 20 ft. radius around targeted point'
or 'Level 3 - Force Throw', etc

how is that a mysterious supernatural force? Right now the workings of monks are more mysterious than wizards because in a sense they're doing crazy unarmed and unarmored shit and wizards are doing union-approved magic missile and fire bolt spells as per statute of wizardry, chapter 2 and they might as well have neon yellow safety robes on at the same time because now EVERYONE wants to be a wizard, it good long term career and you earn many golds so study hard in school okay

now when you look at fucking cinderella's fairy godmother you don't see that stuff as amazing magic shit you now go oh she using some kind of duration based transmutation spell on the pumpkin and her dirty dress and placed the mice in a pocket dimension and replaced them with astral servants with a visual glamor of stagecoach drivers

All this goes for high level, high magic setting monsters as well. Now everyone knows how many colors of dragons there are and what they like to eat and their exact lifespan and if they like riddles or praise. No. Wrong.

Right now it looks like you're going to only get an interesting magic system in adventure games and weird art-games, because in crpgs there is the expectancy of being able to steamroll shit with damage numbers popping up all around you and that demands a certain kind of game with a certain kind of magic system.

I'm afraid the the wide and vaguely defined possibilities of esoteric magic systems is working against any future implementation in normal mob heavy, different classes progressing in similar ways type crpgs. You know, everything from Might and Magic to Dragon Age. Weird unintuitive stuff that could explode reality will have to have the rpg and possible interactions designed around it and not just slotted in like an extra character class from an expansion pack that can group with a barbarian without any surprises.

The vancian system is used because it's user friendly and its spell effects documented as well as the damage values of mundane weapons, so potential big changes are limited to interesting variations on this theme.

 

[Black Cat]

ending up with a spellcaster unfit for anything other than hiding away in a cave and scrounging for components, let alone a moderately actiony adventure or party support

As others have said I believe you are not seeing what I tried to say. Instead of what you said you actually end with a character learned in many topics: Languages, theology, mythology, arcane lore, herbalism, etc. Why can't she also be the group's diplomat, for example? There have been many historical examples of learned occultists becoming involved in courtly life and politics thanks to their vast education and wise advise, the two easier examples being Gerard Encausse and John Dee, and stories of witches and sorceresses constantly talk about their deceptive, seductive, and manipulative natures.

And why can't she also be the group healer, given her knowledge of herbs? Why can't she also benefit the party with her knowledge of the metaphysical realms and her understanding of the spirit realms, warning them of things not even the party's spy can notice and discovering things otherwise secret like forgotten treasures and the skeletons kept in the closet of their enemies by calling on the powers and offices of demons and spirits, or even the ghosts of the long forgotten victims of their foes? Why can't she warn against things to happen thanks to her knowledge of omens, astrology, divination, and the spirit realms?

Etc, etc. I'm talking Merlin, Gandalf, Morgaine, Suleyman, and the like here and not about a walking piece of very squishy artillery.

Also, take a look at, for example, talismanic magic through history and let's say you have a party of a knight, his squire, and a hunter. What would give a higher benefit to this party, another fighter or a witch who can use talismanic magic to raise their already great skills to superhuman levels, cover their weaknesses, manipulate probability patterns, create magical traps to weaken their enemies, and make her allies both heal and learn faster? And that's just one magical technique or style from among many, all with their own depth and complexities, chosen because it's simple to explain. Think about more complex thingies like invocation (voluntary possession) and the perception altering cappabilities of Glamour, and many others.

Now, and also, go back to the wizard's knowledge and understanding of things outside the realm of common experience: What would that same party do if face against an actual supernatural entity? What knowledge do they have of the weaknesses, strenghts, interests, ambitions, and fears of demons, angels, fairies, the dead, and elemental spirits?

And who else in that party has knowledge of the courtly etiquette of the faery courts, the reputations of the demons and angels they may encounter, and the correct sacrifice to win the help of the river hag that inhabits the currents that go through the old and misty forest they have to walk prance through?

And good luck next time they don't manage to interrupt the summoning of an infernal duque to earth. What will they do to banish him, delay him, talk their way out such a situation, or even protect themselves of possession? Try to duel a fallen angel that has "only" a couple tens of thousands of years of battle experience and training, as well as extreme supernatural powers?

Of course, most of this is only applicable to low magic settings where the supernatural is actually, you know, supernatural and magic is actually, like, magical, so demons aren't just physical monsters with horns and the like.

Also, how would the knight, his squire, and the hunter deal with explicit puzzles in the lairs of evil creatures, implicit puzzles in ruins of largely ignored cultures, volumes of eldritch lore, encoded diaries, research, etc, by themselves? Punching them on the hopes they start talking?

Finally, who said every single character has to have a direct combat use as their main application? Isn't sacrificing a character slot to open new options, routes, and choices the same as sacrificing levels in a single character game to gain dialogue choices, alternate routes, and extra loot by means of skill checks?

 

[ValeVelKal]

That's one of the few things Ultima VIII did right.

There were several sorts of magic, and (almost) none of them "clic ENTER to launch fireball" :

- Thaumaturgy did not need any specific quest and was the most "click and cast" , but was unsanely expensive to buy first the spell and then the components. I maybe casted ONE thaumaturgy spell in my first playthrough

- Necromancy (Earth Magic) needed to "prepare" the spell beforehand, the components were pretty rare, and each used quite a few components, so you could not prepare "stocks" of them, but they were handy if you had them prepared. Necromancy spells had also a tendancy to backfire (like the skeleton attacking you, or the "Stone Skin" stopping VERY early).

- Tempestery (Water Magic) was hereditary - and not for you. It was also the most powerful, hey.

- Pyromancy (Fire Magic) were cast by creating magic items. The components were expensive but a give "staff" you created could cast the same spell several times, so it was "better" than Necromancy. But creating said staff was a chore, as you needed to put the candels and components on a Pentagram, which took ages. You were pretty proud to have created your spell. Once you had the spell created, they were either very situational (Armageddon, Ban Demon), or had a tendency to backfire as well (Fireball that explodes in your hand, the demon that gets directly at you, ...).

- Air Magic, whatever the name, was "point and click", but it was mostly utilitarian spells, nothing too powerful ("long jump", "levitation", "telekinesis", that sort of stuff).

Overall, you COULD do magic, but in most situation either running or using your weapon was more efficient. And due to the component cost, you would very rarely use it. It was (almost) the perfect balance.

 

[msxyz]

I like the idea of mages being people useful for solving riddles, interpreting lore or providing insight. The problem is that games tend to be combat intensive, hence the need to have a spellcaster who is also an offensive character.

It's also funny that, lore wise, mages are supposed to be a few selected individuals who spent their life to master the secret arts but, when the times comes to go out on an adventure, they level up just every other character out there, ruining the impression that being a mage is really something hard and rare.

I dream of a RP game where the PC is a sort of "puppet master" who hire goons, assemble a party, venture with them and uses only his mental skills or charisma to solve problems by directing the party influencing the course of the story through dialogues and decisions making. In such a game the PC should be a character that, due to its background, cannot use any weapon or magic skill. That would be challenging, or boring, or both if not implemented correctly.

 

[Black Cat]

Overall, you COULD do magic, but in most situation either running or using your weapon was more efficient. And due to the component cost, you would very rarely use it. It was (almost) the perfect balance.

That too. It's one of my favorite thingies about The Immortal: While you are a wizard in that game you can only cast spells from scrolls, which are rare and mostly used to solve puzzles and puzzle-like boss fights, so almost all of your fighting is done with your sword or by leading enemies into their own traps.

It's really cool.

I dream of a RP game where the PC is a sort of "puppet master" who hire goons, assemble a party, venture with them and uses only his mental skills or charisma to solve problems by directing the party influencing the course of the story through dialogues and decisions making. In such a game the PC should be a character that, due to its background, cannot use any weapon or magic skill. That would be challenging, or boring, or both if not implemented correctly.

Well, you almost described Ars Magica, a P&P game where only one or two of the party characters are actually wizards, though wizards as in very wise and well educated person who also can manipulate reality by magical means, though there are also less subtle forms of magic depending on how you build your wizard, and all the other characters are hers, his, or their commitive: Bodyguards, servants, scouts, etc.

It's pretty fun, actually. And not a small part of Mage's magic system actually came from Ars Magica, though there it was in a somewhat less polished form.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Nya-sama I'm using your post to ramble because I'm lazy, forgives k
in certain instances my intent is not to counter your points, just showing how run of the mill high fantasy magic is when quantified
and the problems with trying to put the wizz back into wizards

Languages, theology, mythology, arcane lore, herbalism

Languages and theology and mythology, I'd love to see these skills become viable in a heavy combat game. Seriously. Daggerfall did what with languages, let you turn enemies neutral?
Arcane lore and herbalism unfortunately I think pretty much mean identifying items or herbs. Which should really have a greater emphasis but they're pretty much just that.

Why can't she also be the group's diplomat

Heh. For heavy narrative and dialog trees, play the wizard character. Not that it'll be new since spellcasters prime stats are probably their talky stats as well but for once I'd like to see esoteric or forgotten lore figuring into investigation or dialog instead of 'generic smart guy' insight or replies. They can overlap in consequence, sure, but at least give the wizard the full benefit of his tome-pourings over background.

Why can't she also benefit the party with her knowledge of the metaphysical realms and her understanding of the spirit realms, warning them of things not even the party's spy can notice

see invisible

and discovering things otherwise secret like forgotten treasures and the skeletons kept in the closet of their enemies by calling on the powers and offices of demons and spirits, or even the ghosts of the long forgotten victims of their foes?

debuffing and ectoplasmic meatshields
'The Warlock class curses your enemies with fell magic from the hoary pits of SmutTran'ni and summons dark spirits from unknown nightmare realms', a nice way to make your magic menu look appetizing

what I mean to say is, when stuff in lore or events is translated into gameplay mechanics they unfortunately still end up like spreadsheet talk for magic fighters

Why can't she warn against things to happen thanks to her knowledge of omens, astrology, divination, and the spirit realms?

armor class bonus and sneak attack/critical hit immunity?
otherwise I'd like to see precognition implemented creatively

What would give a higher benefit to this party, another fighter or a witch who can use talismanic magic to raise their already great skills to superhuman levels, cover their weaknesses, manipulate probability patterns

buffing

create magical traps to weaken their enemies

snaring

What would that same party do if face against an actual supernatural entity? What knowledge do they have of the weaknesses, strenghts, interests, ambitions, and fears of demons, angels, fairies, the dead, and elemental spirits?

this probably goes in with the mythology and language skills thing
The pitfall here is not making it just another 'have ten points to be able to talk to these guys and do their quests/make it possible to bribe or threaten or smoothtalk your way out of combat AND LOSE DELICIOUS EXP AND LOOTS ARRAGH' affair

And who else in that party has knowledge of the courtly etiquette of the faery courts, the reputations of the demons and angels they may encounter, and the correct sacrifice to win the help of the river hag that inhabits the currents that go through the old and misty forest they have to walk prance through?

that's the problem with speech skills isn't it
while combat has some tactical requirements even with high skill high speech is pretty much choose winning line to win the social combat be it a fat mayor or seven winged solar that thou might not gaze upon least ye be blinded hence

limitations of rpg videogames, blah etc

What will they do to banish him, delay him, talk their way out such a situation, or even protect themselves of possession? Try to duel a fallen angel that has "only" a couple tens of thousands of years of battle experience and training, as well as extreme supernatural powers?

Mind, I think making a wizard the easy automatic mode to access these possible courses of action is a bit too eggs in one basket.
And dueling immortal beings as mortals and winning happens all the time! It are a fact, my penguin books tell me dis

Also, how would the knight, his squire, and the hunter deal with explicit puzzles in the lairs of evil creatures, implicit puzzles in ruins of largely ignored cultures, volumes of eldritch lore, encoded diaries, research, etc, by themselves? Punching them on the hopes they start talking?

I'll speak up for the brave knights and hunters here and say that they aren't all roided up morons who can't think for themselves, see: good ye olde stories

having lore skill substitute and be superior to the all rounders detect and disable trap for areas like these IS a good idea though

Finally, who said every single character has to have a direct combat use as their main application? Isn't sacrificing a character slot to open new options, routes, and choices the same as sacrificing levels in a single character game to gain dialogue choices, alternate routes, and extra loot by means of skill checks?

doing the same thing in the end would kind of counteract the point of such an unique character
of course you'd be having a different journey of sorts but I'd like to think that going mage wouldn't just be a superficial bioware choice between 'magic brain victories' and 'streetwise brain victories'

 

[deuxhero]

The problem isn't that magic is handled in a mundane manner, but that the setting pretends magic is special when it obviously isn't.


This is why I'm sad neither of the two Eberron games actually bothered to stay accurate to the setting.

 

[Phelot]

Maybe this has already been mentioned, I don't know, but I hate how magic is always used through vague "ammo" like mana, that magical blue bar or number that refills via magic blue potions. Just seems lazy, I mean, just say it's a lazer or something and the blue bar is its energy source, makes about as much sense.

So I second or third or whatever U8's magic system even though beyond main quest progression, a lot of it was useless.

But as mentioned with the U8 main quest, I think a lot of stuff mentioned here runs the risk of being an arbitrary quest requirement. Rituals, totems, voodoo, and whatever else is pretty cool, but I think it would be incredibly difficult to incorporate it into the gameplay itself beyond the usual "In order to access the Cave of Dongs, you must perform the Ritual of Stars!"

I think a work around would be to add a level of failure or randomness as mentioned. For example, you're trying to find a brigand hideout, you need a few ingredients to perform a divination spell, so there's your quest, find those items, but perhaps other skills end up being used, some kind of outdoorsman skill to find some special mushroom or whatever, and perhaps the items all have variable qualities, i.e. some are better than others. The end result is that you could get an awfully inaccurate location for our brigands, the wrong cave, or the correct one.

Of course, from a dev's perspective this is all a nightmare to code and script and whatever else is needed, but hey, this is all fantasy anyway right?

All in all, a break from the "push X to cast spell" would be wonderful. I'm even tired of general magical settings full of glowing sparkling mushrooms, purple torches, etc etc. It all cheapens the setting in my opinion, I mean when your world is made of sparkles flying out of everyone's asses, why would we be impressed when you cast some spell that results in more deadly sparkles?

Sorry if this has all been mentioned before.

 

[Zomg]

If you are gonna make me play mastermind five hundred times to make spells I am gonna go to a faq, not gonna lie

 

[Phelot]

If you are gonna make me play mastermind five hundred times to make spells I am gonna go to a faq, not gonna lie

I think the point is that it might be a change to not need to cast anything 500 times. And I don't see why you can't be given advice or hints about certain things. Yes, you could settle for X ingredient, but Y ingredient might be better though more difficult to find. Anyway, just a thought.

I think it might be nice to see magic used as another skill path. So to solve a quest you've got your combat path, stealth path, and so why not some magic ritual or spell or whatever for a magic path?

 

[sgc_meltdown]

magic path?

yeah just occurred to me as well

right now magic is used for non plotty reasons

nobody ever uses magic for continuing the narrative except for maybe small potatoes stuff like

"Fuck there's an arrow in my princessy boobs arrgh"

1) Well shit.
2) (use heal) I can't really explain how but these bandages will fix everything.
1) (cure serious wounds) IN PELOR'S NAME I CLEANSE THY MAMMARIES

look at the really high level spells for any mage these days. What do you see? super kill stuff spell, super stuff not kill me spell. All of which have no lasting impact whatsoever on the world.

That shit is going to be hard to balance though. What are you going to do, play a tank or the wizard who can cast Wish?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I think a work around would be to add a level of failure or randomness as mentioned.

This is why no one ever cuddles with you.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Not allowing the PCs to be spellcasters or greatly limiting magic would be a good step terms of giving the story and atmosphere more gravitas than the typical game.

But the game designers would need to break some new ground or gameplay would probably suffer. In most RPGs melee and ranged combat is handled in a pretty simple manner and spellcasting adds a lot of the tactical depth. Spellcasting is a bit of a cheat for the game designer as it allows you to put in virtually any tactically interesting ability you want.

You'd need to significant increase the complexity of your systems for modeling ranged and melee combat in order to keep the gameplay complex and rewarding without magic.

For example JA2 level combat modeling, but with with a far more sophisticated melee combat system. Conceptually possible, but challenging to design.

The alternative is to give non spellcasting classes exaggerated spell like abilities which are not technically magical. For example, in WoW, warriors got a fear and rogues got a couple different mezmerize type abilities. They all had non magical explanations.

But by implementing silly abilities like this you've probably canceled out the gravitas you originally gained by eliminating PC spellcasting. Significantly restricting magic (but not eliminating it) while increasing the complexity of non magical combat systems is probably the best compromise: keeps the game feeling serious but doesn't demand that the developer innovate entirely new systems that haven't been done before.

 

[anus_pounder]

I think not allowing PC mages is a bit extreme. I do agree that they need to be something more interesting (complex?) than 3d6 fireball though.

Anyway, do continue. This is a genuinely interesting topic. you guys.

 

[Black Cat]

@ sgc_meltdown

What you say is true, and all of those things have been somewhat represented on magical systems. Those representations lack depth, however, which is precisely the point here, and turns something that would require effort, thought, and both involved gameplay and involved mechanics into another icon you click and be done with it. And, in the same way, it turns something that should be dangerous, tense, and mysterious into, like, clicking on this icon instead of that icon.

The same can be said, however, of most of the fantasy role playing genre, and also the modern fantasy genre in general. In the end everything comes as kind of mundane and banal, without the awe and mystery and weirdness of the same stories they claim to be inspired by.

It's kind of pretty sad.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

it turns something that should be dangerous, tense, and mysterious into, like, clicking on this icon instead of that icon

parallels can be drawn from this to rpgs also turning dialog from something that should be spontaneous, fluid and unexpected into clicking on lines 1 to x and looking at the story. You are exploring the immediate story at your person branching railway stop, not having a conversation.

the mass effect games made this even more apparent with their redesign of conversations to a dual spoke investigation ring, color and position-coded responses and 'right side choice gets on with it left side is fluff'

just like magic, simple conversation can do crazy shit to a story and totally blow it off the rails. Like a convenient doublecross, for example. Instead what you have are cosmetic choices between 'hahaha I'm killing you because I'm better diiick' and 'this is for fantasia and her people! die, fiend!'

it's like the difference between an actual human and a gimmicky themed bbs chatbot from the 90s
it's like your choices are buying normal bread or black metal kvlt bread baked from the corn of fiendheim and they both taste the same and everyone agreed to pretend that they don't

my god it's terrible and it's all we have

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

ending up with a spellcaster unfit for anything other than hiding away in a cave and scrounging for components, let alone a moderately actiony adventure or party support

As others have said I believe you are not seeing what I tried to say.

Except you didn't say it. Instead, you went on about the colour of the caster's/enemies' clothes and direction everyone is facing (you totally did).
But I tend to agree with most of what you've now... elaborated, though.



Hmm, speaking of mysterious clicky icons and similar implementations, this reminds me of how Arx Fatalis managed spellcasting - still mostly popamole, but the gesture system wasn't half-horrible for what it was. Something like that could be expanded to writing glyphs on surfaces, dropping pre-hexed items where needed for area effect or muttering gibberish to further alter/expand said effects. If one was going for such medievalish witchy voodoo.
I'm still an adept of MtA, though, so I'd prefer a more creative approach: say, a context menu (a la NWN) on... anything, that branches into numerous possible reality-changing effects (dependent on your choice and mastery of Spheres). Which also means fetish enchantment, buffing/debuffing and any other mumbo-jumbo fluff one might desire. And instead of long-winding incantations or mana nonsense, you are limited by Paradox accumulation: the more often you change reality or the more profound the changes you cause, the bigger the chance and ways for it to screw you up (often permanently).