My beef against modern real time combat systems

[Zeus]

You sure about that?

It looked to me like Alexandros said he'd played other games mentioned in this thread, but was "referring specifically to fantasy RPGs with real-time combat." Then he called out M&B's animations, "Your opponents seem to be non-corporeal beings, since your swings pass right through them. You never feel like you've actually hit something."

Awor Szurkrarz directly quoted that and replied, "Yeah, it's fucking pathetic, especially with the system requirements of these games... if you can't do decent animations, stick to Exile-level graphics."

Of course, I might be mistaken.

 

[Dogffdog]

Same applies to arcade/platform/fighting/shooter games and our PHYSICAL(and to a much lesser extent mental) abilities. The point of Quake is not to simulate the "What would I do if I were a space marine facing hordes of interstellar demons?". It is to test your reflexes and(primarily physical) gaming skills.

Reflexes are not a physical ability, they are also a mental ability. The only physical ability any game, action or tactical requires, is your ability to tap keys and move the mouse. What you are doing is saying one type of mental skill is OK in a RPG while the other is not, but inexplicably refer to it as a physical ability. Good reflexes means you can make a good decision with very little time to think it through. Your actual physical attributes (strength, speed, stamina) are no more relevant than they are in a tactical rpg. Unless you are suffering from severe physical disabilities, the physical effort required to play a reflex based RPG is no different from a tactical one.

No. Reflexes are a mechanical response to a particular situation, involving no conscious decision. Trying to equate a reflex response made in the heat of the moment which also involve the use of precision aiming and quick key tapping/clicking, with a well thought out strategic decision on a turn-based system is absurd. They make for very different gameplay.

The point of RPGs is that YOU, as in your physical body, have no place in the game world. it is to simulate "What if I were a 350 lbs. barbarian Orc...?". That orc should not have his skill at swinging an axe rooted in YOUR skill at button mashing and mouse clicking.

That's odd, because button mashing and mouse clicking is what you are essentially requesting. The player just mashes buttons and the skills take care of the rest.

So, your argument amounts to 'they're the same thing because you have to clickety click click on both'.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

@Zeus: I think Awor was referring to the end of that post

Why isn't it the same way in games?

As in, modern games, since they look all bloomy and high-res and HDR and shit but still behave like a NES game. All that power is being wasted on rendering each pube individually during the sex scenes.

 

[Zeus]

Aha. Well that does make sense.

There are HDR mods for M&B, terrain replacements and other graphical updates that do make M&B look like a brand new bloomy game, but it's very much a low tech indie at heart. Hell, it even has a DirectX 7 option. How many games come with that these days?

I never much minded the animations. I think once I'm caught up in the heat of battle, I barely notice them. The hit detection really sells it on me. It's like, instead of this big invisible box of damage that flashes out in front of me, hitting anyone within whacking distance, I have to actually aim and bean them on the head.

 

[Mastermind]

No. Reflexes are a mechanical response to a particular situation, involving no conscious decision. Trying to equate a reflex response made in the heat of the moment which also involve the use of precision aiming and quick key tapping/clicking, with a well thought out strategic decision on a turn-based system is absurd. They make for very different gameplay.

So, your argument amounts to 'they're the same thing because you have to clickety click click on both'.

Where did I say they're the same thing you dumb fucking shit? I said they're both mental skills (something does not need to be conscious to be mental). That's about the extent of their similarities. I never said they are broadly similar, or that the gameplay they produce is the same. I'm saying that it makes no sense to oppose "player skill" in a fucking video game, and further pointed out that these two particular player skills are both mental (IOW, not physical) skills, so even if you're into arbitrarily allowing one and not the other, it's still not applicable. Whether they are broadly similar or just similar in one small area is completely irrelevant. You should stick to sucking dicks and leave the very serious business to intelligent, charismatic and good looking people like me.

 

[Dogffdog]

Where did I say they're the same thing you dumb fucking shit?

no u

I said they're both mental skills (something does not need to be conscious to be mental). That's about the extent of their similarities. I never said they are broadly similar, or that the gameplay they produce is the same.

No, you were trying to retardedly equate them when one of them clearly is connected and dependant of the player's physical skill at quick aiming and quick key tapping/clicking.

I'm saying that it makes no sense to oppose "player skill" in a fucking video game

Ah so now it's a 'general' video game, not rpg's that were being discussed?

Moron

and further pointed out that these two particular player skills are both mental (IOW, not physical) skills, so even if you're into arbitrarily allowing one and not the other, it's still not applicable. Whether they are broadly similar or just similar in one small area is completely irrelevant.

When talking about rpg's, and given that one of them is directly connected to quickness of aiming/key tapping/clicking, it's not arbitrary and it is indeed applicable when they produce different results in gameplay, you imbecile.

 

[Redeye]

Wouldn't an expert combatant rely on "muscle-memory"/rote moves because they are much faster than "eye-brain-arm/hand-repeat"?

Maybe some switching back and forth?

 

[Mastermind]

No, you were trying to retardedly equate them when one of them clearly is connected and dependant of the player's physical skill at quick aiming and quick key tapping/clicking.

Clicking and moving a mouse button is haaaaaaaaaaard.

Aiming accurately and pressing the right keys at the right time is done by your brain, cretin. You need to be able to tap buttons and move the mouse in turn based games too. The point where twitch based gameplay becomes difficult is when it challenges your brain to keep up with the movement on screen, not because moving a mouse or rapidly tapping a button is in any way, shape or form difficult physically.

It takes one giant fucking pussy to consider twitch based gameplay so more physically demanding than tbs gameplay that it actually becomes a major difference between the two.

Ah so now it's a 'general' video game, not rpg's that were being discussed?

Moron

Pendantic faggotry. Replace "general video game" with rpg and my point doesn't change one bit. This is merely a distraction from your deep seated stupidity.

When talking about rpg's, and given that one of them is directly connected to quickness of aiming/key tapping/clicking, it's not arbitrary and it is indeed applicable when they produce different results in gameplay, you imbecile.

Just because they produce different results in gameplay does not make it any less arbitrary. It's like saying it's ok to shoot one guy because he's a baker but not another guy because he's a butcher. The jobs of the two are very different but does nothing to explain why it's ok to shoot one but not the other. Likewise, being an RPG has nothing to do with whether it's twitch based or tactics based. There is no such thing as a game that does not require player skill BY DEFINITION. It's why they're games and not fucking movies. The distinction between what you call mental skill and physical skill is arbitrary. You like one but not the other and suddenly think your opinion on the subject is somehow absolute despite the fact that you can't provide a single logical reason as to why one should be excluded and the other should not other than "durrrrrr, they're diffrunt".

 

[Dogffdog]

Aiming accurately and pressing the right keys at the right time is done by your brain, cretin. You need to be able to tap buttons and move the mouse in turn based games too.

Which is why i said that your entire argument was; 'herp derp you have to click on both so it's the same'. Do you have to move the mouse to aim with the same precision at the same speed while on the heat of the moment on both? no? thank you, moron.

It's like saying it's ok to shoot one guy because he's a baker but not another guy because he's a butcher. The jobs of the two are very different but does nothing to explain why it's ok to shoot one but not the other.

No, it's more like saying that carefully painting a miniature is the same activity as sword fighting because gzomg! you haev to aim ta a certuin point and yuor central nervous system brian commands both actions!!1!

Likewise, being an RPG has nothing to do with whether it's twitch based or tactics based. There is no such thing as a game that does not require player skill BY DEFINITION. It's why they're games and not fucking movies.

Any game requires some sort of player input and skill? of course, that doesn't mean that they're all, or should be all, the same input or skills. Quick reflexes and hand-eye coordination, or twitch gameplay, are not one that belogs to rpg's and therefore the games who are based on that skill and posses some rpg elements are tagged with the lesser name of 'action rpg's' or some similar shit.

The distinction between what you call mental skill and physical skill is arbitrary. You like one but not the other and suddenly think your opinion on the subject is somehow absolute despite the fact that you can't provide a single logical reason as to why one should be excluded and the other should not other than "durrrrrr, they're diffrunt".

When did i say that twitch gameplay has to be excluded you idiot?

Also, while i can provide the clear reason that yes, they produce radically different gameplay because they're based/use different skill sets, all you seem to be able to do to 'prove' (lol) that they're both the same mental shit and that therefore there's no reason to separate them (or whatever other shit you're trying to say here beyond retarded semantic discussions about what the brain's in charge of) is:

It takes one giant fucking pussy to consider twitch based gameplay so more physically demanding than tbs gameplay that it actually becomes a major difference between the two.

which basically amounts to: "LOL, twitch gameplay is teh easy and therefore anyone who doesn't think it's the same gameplay as turn-based is teh pussy OLOLOLOL".

 

[chzr]

it's not about whether you click button and let the game to do the combat (BG), or whether you 'click this to attack, click that to block' (Oblivion). In both examples, and basically every RPG out there, regardless HOW you score the hit (roll more then enemy defense/click when enemy isn't blocking) the result is swing somewhere over the enemy and some blood. Repeat until you kill him... I'd compare it to real-time strategies and their tanks with health bars. Hitting enemy fighter with a sword for 10 dmg is about as exciting as hitting a tank with a rocket and to reduce it's hp bar. But that's not how it works, if you hit a tank, you either penetrate and do some 'damage' depending where you hit or not and the tank will 'shake' from the impact but shell will simply bump from the armor.

Now apply the same on RPGs, if enemy blocks/evades your attack (or you hit him in the armor), he should be affected by the impact, but not wounded. If you manage to hit him, will be either killed, or you cut his arm off etc. Though there are few strategies (well i know maybe one or two) that use actual armor thickness and not those hp bars, i see 2 main reasons why there isn't any 'real' combat like this in RPGs.

First is the obvious reason that RPG devs find more exciting hitting for terrible terrible damage in form of hps and shiny bloomy animations then 20 second of 1v1 evading/blocking and then 1-2 hits & death.
The second is that it would make invinciblegrimdarkvisceral heroes absolete, because no matter what you do, you can't block like 3 and more enemies at once, resulting almost every RPG's casual encounter in your quick death. Add reluctance of devs to give you more then few heroes in party (so you can enjoy epic gritty mature story of your protagonist) to even odds in bigger fights and because, for some reason, unlike losing a tank, people get butthurt if their awsum hero dies (unlike Codex in LPs).

And since companies probably find 'realistic combat' a less exciting term then 'visceral combat', we won't see anything like that soon.

 

[mpxd]

Aiming accurately and pressing the right keys at the right time is done by your brain, cretin.

I thought about this a bit before my first post in this thread -- reaction is clearly a mental process, yes. This doesn't make the act of 'aiming and clicking' purely mental, though. Especially in the sort of game that people are complaining about, physical agility can also play a part, as well as coordination of muscle movement (which is partly mental, sure). This is why i addressed the case of games which require quick purely mental processes (decisions) and didn't just say "HURR CLICKING IS MENTAL TOO".

Sure, the separation is arbitrary. So is every separation, when it comes to classifying things. My posts were an attempt to ask the question, "Player skill in the form of finger agility is frowned upon here; what about player skill in the form of rapid decision-making?".

People here seem to be under the impression that only certain player skills should be tested in RPGs. I'm trying to figure out if they just don't like physical skills being tested, or, more broadly, they don't like involving any player skills other than unlimited-time intelligence.

I think it's mostly the former -- codex would dislike a game in which carry weight was limited by the heaviest weight you could lift, with no time limit -- but not necessarily hate a game with limited turn time.

Personally, I think that testing intelligence alone, whether time-limited or not, is best. This is mostly because people learn a hell of a lot faster than they gain muscle mass or build muscle memory, and, again personally, i find learning much more fun. This doesn't mean that games which test physical abilities are inherently bad -- just that people are more likely to find getting better at them "hopelessly difficult" or just plain tedious.

Getting back to the real world of games which don't test your strength or cardiovascular endurance, yes, most games are mostly mental exercises. The argument is that they should, at least in the case of RPGs, be purely mental, or at least work to minimize the impact of physical skills.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

You sure about that?

It looked to me like Alexandros said he'd played other games mentioned in this thread, but was "referring specifically to fantasy RPGs with real-time combat." Then he called out M&B's animations, "Your opponents seem to be non-corporeal beings, since your swings pass right through them. You never feel like you've actually hit something."

Awor Szurkrarz directly quoted that and replied, "Yeah, it's fucking pathetic, especially with the system requirements of these games... if you can't do decent animations, stick to Exile-level graphics."

Of course, I might be mistaken.

I was talking about "upgrade your comp now" cinematic games like The Witcher, not to low budget stuff.

 

[Radisshu]

hey giuse did u know u use ur brain for most bodly functuions so really when ur walkin ur thinkn??

 

[Wang Lo]

Basically comes down to it takes a lot of time and effort to make good combat, but if you have one character and it's realtime you can simplify the combat dramatically. Add in some level scaling and it makes it even easier to program. Even so it still takes a little effort but many companies just don't care or aren't competent to deliver. So it's not really that there's some big demand for games to be so retarded it's just that the less time it takes the better.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

One thing that I find amusing is that they still haven't realised that with a great combat system they can simply throw out 9/10 of content and still make a great game.

 

[exe]

Are there newer games like Severance: Blade of Darkness? I know about Dark Messiah, but that was kind of a step back.

 

[Tycn]

M&B is similar but much better, except the single player is terrible and there isn't any dismemberment.

 

[desocupado]

Just tried severance, and it seems good, but the camera gives me headheaches.

Is there a mod that makes it stop jittering when the character moves?

It seems the developers thought a good idea to afix the camera to the character's head, not his position on space, so we end up getting something I thought I never would see, a third person head-bob.

 

[denizsi]

Reflexes = muscle memories ie. learned experiences. More experience, better ability to think and choose a reaction in a split-second. Reflexes in a RPG = judgement roll based on skill/experience levels to determine whether you carry out a pure reflex predetermined by your stats or whether you get to make your momentary mental assessment to choose from actions and how many actions you are able to assess from your actual repertoire. That is, ideally.

 

[Topher]

M&B is similar but much better, except the single player is terrible and there isn't any dismemberment.

Mount and Blade is great. I'm still having fun playing around with the SP. I really wish the developers would add some new systems like moral.

 

[JarlFrank]

Are there newer games like Severance: Blade of Darkness? I know about Dark Messiah, but that was kind of a step back.

Nah, Dark Messiah is the newest game of its kind. You can try some other older games, though. Rune is pretty good (shit beginning, but gets solid once you leave Hel) and there's also Die By the Sword, which has a rather complicated control scheme but it's fun.

Other than those, I don't think there's anything that could be compared to Blade of Darkness, which is sad, since I like that particular subgenre.