MotB Spirit Meter

[Helton]

I figured it was implied that abstaining characters satiate while travelling.

That isn't consistant you cannot survive in real time off satiating alone.

Also, what the fuck? It's an abstraction. How would you have done it? Lose spirit energy as if you didn't feed/satiate during your whole journey through the Land of the Spirits? Interrupt the journey 24 fucking times a day for you to manually feed?

I'd have you lose energy at a certain pace while travelling, given whatever your hunger was. If you want to pretend that's the pace you lose it with meals or without meals I don't care.

Meter should represent a real threat, not pestering. That means significantly slower or no spirit loss in real time, relatively higher loss during travel, and full regeneration through routine methods should not generally be possible. That means if you rely on only routine methods (satiate, devour, eternal rest, ect) you will slowly but surely become weaker as the game goes on. This will encourage you more to take quest related spirit boosts or maybe sacrifice xp.

You guys don't see that it basically amounts to a mini-game most of the time? I'm talking about really implementing it into player decisions.

Right now it isn't so much spirit hunger as spirit diabetes. Up fast down fast. I'd rather it have been more a measure of weight. How well have you been eating over the past several months, not the past several hours.

 

[Lumpy]

I figured it was implied that abstaining characters satiate while travelling.

That isn't consistant you cannot survive in real time off satiating alone.

Yes you can. I believe it was called Supress, though. Once the hunger (auxiliary) meter was low enough, you'd gain more energy from Supress than you'd lose by resting.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I was pot shotting VD's review where he says the only thing wrong was the alignment shifts.

You've quoted me, replied to me and yet you've been actually referring to VD's review? I should have figured... alas my mindreading isn't as good as it was.

I guess this is the thing, if you didn't like the spirit meter and your criticism was the five minute wait shit, you'd be a moron. Since you defend the spirit meter the fact that your concessions are different doesn't matter. So why are we calling people morons? Well given those two cases it isn't the actual criticism but whether or not they liked the feature.

So no matter how you dress it up with "people who don't understand are morons" it is still the same ad hominem crap; because you're the one deciding who you think "gets it". And that's fine I call people faggots and morons who I disagree with all the time or even when I agree with them. But the airs that are put on, the pretense of reasoning when in fact it all boils down to "Your opinion sucks and you're stupid"... Well I guess I'm butthurt lulz!

I see, it was important - 3 years after - to stand up against the nefarious Vault Dweller ad hominem crap and what is more appropriate than to do it by creating a few posts filled with ad hominem crap yourself. It has been explained that the quote wasn't targeted at everyone who thinks that this or that specific feature of the spirit eater mechanic should've been altered or needs to be improved. It wasn't even aimed at those who dislike it for whatever reasons. Yet you keep insisting. Does VaultDweller think everyone who doesn't regard the spirit meter as perfect (except alignment shifts) is a moron? I doubt it, but even if he does why should I care? You otoh do care a lot obviously. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Wow more "you're stupid" jokes good show. No, that's not what I'm advocating and it isn't reasonable to extrapolate that from my posts.

Reduce or remove spirit loss in real time. Greatly increase spirit loss from rest or travel WTF how does this make any sense, if I chill for an hour in town I lose more spirit than if I hike three days through the mountains?

Of course, while greatly increasing the spirit loss from travel you can't increase it enough to make travel impossible. When you arrive eventually you're spirit energy stops dropping, giving you any time neccessary to replenish it according to your proposal. And what the fuck is that supposed to achieve? That it makes sense now? That it's a real threat now?

You advocate to "greatly increase spirit loss from rest or travel" (ie when clicking an icon on the overland map) and remove spirit loss in real time (ie when you actually play the game). And this is supposed to make the meter a looming threat? Sorry but that doesn't make much sense.

The spirit meter should steadily go down as the game progresses, but more slowly. Most loss should be during rest and travel, not real time play. That does not mean you tweak the amount lost in travel while leaving the real time loss the same. Obviously real time loss would need to be dramatically reduced.

So the fact that - for gameplay purposes - you lose less spirit energy while travelling doesn't make sense and is therefor one reason why the spirit meter was implemented like shit, but removing the spirit loss during real time play while time is still passing by does make sense? Ok. For me it merely sounds like a way to decrease the impact of the spirit eater curse on actual gameplay, not much different than to make it cosmetic entirely since you'll spend far more time in *real time play* than with travelling or resting.

I think this is pretty basic stuff and this exchange demonstrates how thin a veil you're wearing. After one post you're done with the thinking and down to the shit flinging.

Don't like shit flinging? Adjust your own posting style first. You'll get what you ask for.

You're a fucking bore. "I'm going to ignore everything you said and make up my own conclusion about your character and intelligence." Good for you, hope that shit serves you well in life.

I did address what you said in every post of mine ITT, that's hardly ignorance.

My arguments were so invalid that your only responses was "you're stupid" and "I don't care what you say I'M NOT LISTENING!"
Yes I see the irony, it was deliberate.

You're arguments are largely bullshit. I told you why. The fact stands the moron-indicator statement was not aimed at you Mr. Not-A-Moron. At least VD didn't aim it at you since you understand the mechanic and merely want it to "make more sense" in a way that doesn't make any sense.

Meter should represent a real threat, not pestering.
That means significantly slower or no spirit loss in real time, relatively higher loss during travel, and full regeneration through routine methods should not generally be possible. That means if you rely on only routine methods (satiate, devour, eternal rest, ect) you will slowly but surely become weaker as the game goes on. This will encourage you more to take quest related spirit boosts or maybe sacrifice xp.

You want it to be a real threat instead of pestering. Instead of a mere annoyance? That won't be making you friends with the spirit hater crowd you've been defending.
Anyway, how does your proposal contribute towards that goal? And how does the game discourage you from taking quest related spirit boosts so that an encouragement is neccessary?
On one hand you want the spirit eater abilities not to provide full regeneration, on the other hand you want no loss of spirit energy during real time. And finally you reach the next conversation, click on the proper dialog line, et voila: everything is fine again. Real threat not detected.

You guys don't see that it basically amounts to a mini-game most of the time? I'm talking about really implementing it into player decisions.

Are you saying the spirit eater mechanic is not tied in with player decisions?

Right now it isn't so much spirit hunger as spirit diabetes. Up fast down fast. I'd rather it have been more a measure of weight. How well have you been eating over the past several months, not the past several hours.

While the idea that devouring a lot of stuff (ie Death Gods Vault) kinda builds up a reserve and prevents you from having to worry about your spirit energy the nexts few days/weeks etc has some appeal, I don't see how that contributes toward making the spirit meter a "real threat".

 

[MetalCraze]

I figured it was implied that abstaining characters satiate while travelling.

That isn't consistant you cannot survive in real time off satiating alone.

Yes you can. I believe it was called Supress, though. Once the hunger (auxiliary) meter was low enough, you'd gain more energy from Supress than you'd lose by resting.

Wasn't there some downside to supress? I remember something was still penalized

 

[Gragt]

If I remember correctly, using Supress means that you can't use the other Spirit Eater abilities until you rest.

 

[Helton]

Yes you can. I believe it was called Supress, though. Once the hunger (auxiliary) meter was low enough, you'd gain more energy from Supress than you'd lose by resting.

1. That's not what I recall but whatevs my memory isn't perfect.
2. I don't consider resting real time as you can see I often refer to it along with travel.
3. You shouldn't be able to survive indefinately this way. And that is my main focus. If I could survive forever on a heavy sleep schedule and long walks I could as well retire as assault the Wall of Death. While the detail you're after is worth fighting it is tangent to this.

You've quoted me, replied to me and yet you've been actually referring to VD's review? I should have figured... alas my mindreading isn't as good as it was.

I gather you're not a native English speaker or perhaps new to the internet? I think its fairly normal in conversation to refer to a larger context, especially something I said earlier in that very post.

I see, it was important - 3 years after - to stand up against the nefarious Vault Dweller ad hominem crap and what is more appropriate than to do it by creating a few posts filled with ad hominem crap yourself.

Hey jackass I don't always have the time or will to express a grievence with stubborn motherfuckers. Conversations usually go like this with tldr posts over every painful inch of metaphorical land. This isn't in response to something from 3 years ago but more like a month ago. Time and will just coincided and I wanted to post something. When I want to post something I post it.

It has been explained that the quote wasn't targeted at everyone who thinks that this or that specific feature of the spirit eater mechanic should've been altered or needs to be improved. It wasn't even aimed at those who dislike it for whatever reasons.

Yet someone is insinuated to be a moron because they complain about the spirit meter. Sounds like a load of shit to me. Like I said you can dress it up but when the reality is someone says "I didn't like MotB, the spirit meter ruined it for me, I think it should have been cosmetic" and you call them a moron then a spade is a fucking spade.

Yet you keep insisting. Does VaultDweller think everyone who doesn't regard the spirit meter as perfect (except alignment shifts) is a moron? I doubt it, but even if he does why should I care? You otoh do care a lot obviously. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

I don't know why do you care? Hey let's play the "I don't care game"! Who can NOT CARE the most while still posting tldr bullshit post after post claiming they really have no stock in this at all. Typical intellectucal poser games. Yes I care is that not edgy enough?

Of course, while greatly increasing the spirit loss from travel you can't increase it enough to make travel impossible. When you arrive eventually you're spirit energy stops dropping, giving you any time neccessary to replenish it according to your proposal. And what the fuck is that supposed to achieve? That it makes sense now? That it's a real threat now?

There's using the old noggin! Yes it achieves both those things. And whether spirit energy doesn't drop at all in real time or just at a more appropriate (see: slow) rate would have to be a design decision. You sacrifice consistancy for a little bit of player conveniece I don't know if that's worth it. The way it is now though you sacrifice consistancy to inconvenience the player and that's not right.

If you can completely fill the bar with routine methods all the time then it cannot be a real threat, can it? But if you can't refill the bar by routine means and it plumets like it does atm then you're seriously screwed, eh? So you reduce real time loss and make it require more energy than is generally available to recover from travel/rest loss. Now it can be a real threat.

You advocate to "greatly increase spirit loss from rest or travel" (ie when clicking an icon on the overland map) and remove spirit loss in real time (ie when you actually play the game). And this is supposed to make the meter a looming threat? Sorry but that doesn't make much sense.

Well I am still trying to elaborate but I'm under the impression you're not really working with me and thinking; rather just trying to throw down some kind of impossible gauntlet "convince me while I cross my arms and tone you out". I'm not surprised it doesn't make sense.

Don't like shit flinging? Adjust your own posting style first. You'll get what you ask for.

I'm fine with shit flinging and I wouldn't have it any other way. Just pointing out that you're down here with me. :D

Anyway, how does your proposal contribute towards that goal? And how does the game discourage you from taking quest related spirit boosts so that an encouragement is neccessary?

Despite what you may have heard, there is such a thing as dumb questions. There doesn't need to be negative motivation for positive motivation to be effective. A boost in spirit energy at least with a good character wasn't much of a quest reward. Like giving me a +1 sword or something to pawn at the shop. That shouldn't have been the case. Spirit energy could have been used as a high-end currency for the player, incorporated into quest rewards and put opposite of other valuable thing like ubah-loot and xp. That requires that there actually be a scarcity of spirit energy and a pool that wouldn't deplete in twenty minutes.

Are you saying the spirit eater mechanic is not tied in with player decisions?

I'm saying the spirit meter mechanic was not tied in with player decisions.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It has been explained that the quote wasn't targeted at everyone who thinks that this or that specific feature of the spirit eater mechanic should've been altered or needs to be improved.

Once again, I said "If you failed to understand this feature, odds are you’re a fucking moron.", not if you didn't like it, you're stupid. Technically once the exact quote was posted, nothing else needed to be said.

Does VaultDweller think everyone who doesn't regard the spirit meter as perfect (except alignment shifts) is a moron?

I most certainly don't. As pretty much everything else it's a matter of personal preference and I can easily understand why some people didn't like it. In fact, any feature that adds urgency and forces you to divide your attention between exploring/questing and watching a meter (Fallout's time limit, thirst/hunger mechanics, the spirit meter) is controversial by default and comes with a built-in negative reaction.

However, like I said, there is a difference between disliking something, even for no other reason than "I just don't fucking like it", and failing to understand how a relatively simple feature works and claiming that it makes the game unplayable.

As for Helton's posts that are dedicated to me, they read as slightly more verbose versions of this post.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Seriously, three pages in and the retard still can't grasp the concept that "If you don't understand it you're a moron" does not equal "If you don't like it, you're a moron".

Therefore, by using the above statement as a watermark, I come to the conclusion that Helton is in fact a moron.

 

[Helton]

Since we're still pretending:

Why do so many people like MotB so much??? I thought Storm of Zehir was much better personally.

The stupid hunger meter annoyed the crap out of me when I was playing MotB; totally ruined the experience.

So much fail in one post.

- "Why" was explained many times. Do you have some kinda reading comprehension disability?
- While SoZ had its moments and praise-worthy features, only a moron would put it on the same level as (or higher than) MotB.
- the hunger meter is a good moron indicator; apparently it's as accurate as ever.

However, like I said, there is a difference between disliking something, even for no other reason than "I just don't fucking like it", and failing to understand how a relatively simple feature works and claiming that it makes the game unplayable.

Yes there's a difference but apparently not a practical one because, hey, this guy didn't like it and that's part of the reason we conclude he's a moron.

 

[MetalCraze]

He's a moron because he thinks that SoZ with its 2 room basements with 3-4 enemies in them and nothing else is any good better than MotB.

 

[Sceptic]

Seriously, three pages in and the retard still can't grasp the concept that "If you don't understand it you're a moron" does not equal "If you don't like it, you're a moron".

Therefore, by using the above statement as a watermark, I come to the conclusion that Helton is in fact a moron.

And right after your post he's STILL going on about it. Man I love Codex drama.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Claiming that SoZ was a better game isn't a matter of opinion, it's a retarded statement, much like claiming that Fallout 3 is better than Fallout 1.

Stating that the meter has ruined the experience is another retarded statement. Once again, there is a difference between disliking the time limit in Fallout and claiming that it ruined the game. The former's a matter of opinion, the latter is a "self inflicted ad hominem attack".

Another thing is that even with the lowest hunger rate it was still ticking down. What if I realized that I missed a part of a cool sidequest about 3 maps back? Well, I guess I had to either run back and risk being hungry if I couldn't find the right kind of mobs for a while after coming back, or just give up on the quest.

Hmm... it appears that there is no way to turn the meter down and even at the lowest hunger rate it was still going down... What is this I don't even...

Helton, I hope you remember enough to know that you can safely explore the game if your hunger rate is low and that the combination of Suppress and Satiate will keep you in good shape forever and ever. As I explained in my review:

"The good path: You consider your affliction a curse. You suppress your hunger, thus significantly slowing your need to feed. Eventually you acquire “good” feats like Eternal Rest, which allows you to grant rest to undead spirits and restores your spirit energy without increasing your hunger. Soon (very soon) your hunger is pretty much at zero and you focus on the rest of the game.

The evil path: You realize that you've been given a power and that only a fool would give it up. You devour spirits and eventually learn to devour souls. You gain very powerful spirit essences (to craft VERY powerful items) this way and once you fully unleash your gift, you gain significant combat bonuses.

So, what does it all mean? It means that if you are a good person, you can pretty much ignore this feature by suppressing your hunger and enjoy what it adds to the dialogues. If you are an evil bastard, you can "go with the flow" and become a powerful being through the special spirit essences, feats, and abilities. However, all that power - and that's the brilliant part - comes with a price. You must constantly look for spirits to feed on to stay alive. Compare that to Knights of the Old Republic, for example, where the difference between good and evil is purely cosmetic as both sides are equally balances and it doesn't cost you anything to join the Dark Side. "


Edit: I've reread this thread (link) and now I see where your butthurt is coming from. Jesus fucking Christ, Helton. I explained everything in that thread, you sit on it for 3 weeks and instead of continuing that discussion you start a new thread which is a mix of "I hate VD" and "I still don't understand what you said so I hate you even more now".

Grow up, will you?

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Here ya go Helton.

 

[Zomg]

Did you really just post that?

 

[Admiral jimbob]

xDD butthurt

 

[Lockkaliber]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU xD

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

I'll say it again: Sucking on a Ventriloquist Dummy's penis is futile, because it's made out of wood, and thus you will never get to swallow cum... like you want to.

 

[BethesdaLove]

I'll say it again: Sucking on a Ventriloquist Dummy's penis is futile, because it's made out of wood, and thus you will never get to swallow cum... like you want to.

 

[Volourn]

"Claiming that SoZ was a better game isn't a matter of opinion, it's a retarded statement, much like claiming that Fallout 3 is better than Fallout 1. "

Are you REALLY this fuckin' idiotic?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I suppose I am. You're more than welcome to explain why the statement in question is idiotic though.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

He's not idiotic, he merely can't control what he's saying... being a Ventriloquist Dummy and all. Maybe the guy who has his hand stuck up VD's ass is the true moron?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Btw, I couldn't help but notice that your contribution in this thread consists entirely of:

"Vaginal Douche"... Now why didn't I think of that?

Vindictive Dolt

Very Droll

Vault Dunce

Ventriloquist Dummy

Etc etc

Me? I'm just going to go with the old "Fuck you Vault Dickhead" line because that how we roll in GritVille.

Ventriloquist Dummy has its charm though... and the real Vince has the charisma, intelligence and mind of a dummy so it all adds up!

Sucking on a Ventriloquist Dummy's cock does you now good, Ventilator... he'll never cum.

I'll say it again: Sucking on a Ventriloquist Dummy's penis is futile, because it's made out of wood, and thus you will never get to swallow cum... like you want to.

He's not idiotic, he merely can't control what he's saying... being a Ventriloquist Dummy and all. Maybe the guy who has his hand stuck up VD's ass is the true moron?

You clearly put in a lot of efforts into that, so may I inquire - purely out of curiosity - about the nature of your butthurt? I mean I don't recall saying anything to you that would explain all these "emotions". So, what gives?

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

You're an arrogant tit who can't admit when you're wrong... or rather your ventriloquist is. Fire him and find another hand to sit on.

 

[Radisshu]

I suppose I am. You're more than welcome to explain why the statement in question is idiotic though.

Because the quality of a game, to a single individual, is measured in how much enjoyment somebody gets out of playing it, which is subjective.

For example, some people might have liked SoZ more than MotB because they enjoy games with trading, overland maps, less story-driven RPGs, and the ability to create their own parties. MotB might have done the story, writing, overall setting, and various other things better, but SoZ had certain elements MotB lacked.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You're an arrogant tit who can't admit when you're wrong... or rather your ventriloquist is. Fire him and find another hand to sit on.

I've admitted that I'm wrong plenty of times, but I guess I'm expected to admit that I'm wrong every time I enter a debate.

I'd be curious to see a link to the discussion that pushed you over the edge though.